Many people seem to think Buffy was 100% at fault when it comes to the final blow up about how to go about defeating the first. I personally disagree with that. I don't think Buffy was 100% correct either I think things could have been handled better by both sides. I do think that she deserved more respect than she was given though. What do you all think about this?
Buffy's decisions in season 7
- Thread starter slayer6
- Start date
Robb Stark
King in the North
I agree with the notion that Buffy deserved more respect, I don't like how she was treated, but at the same time I think that Buffy in S7 was the perfect example of how NOT to be a leader. Being a leader isn't about power. It's not about "who's the Slayer and who's not" (one of the themes from S3 I loved, through the identification of Faith, is that being the Slayer doesn't make Buffy special. BUFFY herself is special). Being a leader is about getting people not only to follow you, but to WANT to follow you. Buffy in S7 just yells a lot. She writes off and refuses to acknowledge the situations of even her most personal friends in the name of "the war", as if this war is any worse than when The Master almost literally raised hell, or when Angelus almost sucked the planet into another hell, or when a God barnstormed through Sunnydale and tried to tear down the fabric of reality.
No, but S7 I think Buffy is just burned out. I think coming back from the dead did a lot more damage to her than what S6 crystallized, and I still don't think she's recovered. We see that in S8 as well. The way she thinks, the way she plans and the way she...well..."leads", is an unmitigated, complete disaster. She only lives through S7 and defeats The First through good old fashioned plot luck. That's it. Caleb her cold so many times it was just stupid. The execution of vineyard was just beyond stupid. I love Buffy as much as the next person, but even the most hardcore fans of hers have to see that her plan was just suicide. If Caleb had a brain and had pursued her, they would have been eviscerated. But no, he cracked an evil, Snidely Whiplash grin as if he had some deeper plan (which he didn't) and left her alone. Dumb.
At this point, any sensible military command structure in the world would have instantly relieved her of command. On the spot. She attempted zero recon, she new nothing about Caleb or what he was capable of, and made no effort to find out. She didn't even have a real objective for going in. And people died because of it. Her next move was to head right back in! What!? Of course people balked. She didn't even take into consideration the state of her "troops" or their capacity. A few episodes later she proved that she was wrong by going in alone, stealthily.
God, sorry, I know I've ranted here, but it drives me insane. I really, really love studying strategy, tactics and military history. I'm really into it. So for me, this just drives me nuts, especially because Buffy is NOT stupid. She's proven in the past she can think and plan well. By S7, that's just gone.
No, but S7 I think Buffy is just burned out. I think coming back from the dead did a lot more damage to her than what S6 crystallized, and I still don't think she's recovered. We see that in S8 as well. The way she thinks, the way she plans and the way she...well..."leads", is an unmitigated, complete disaster. She only lives through S7 and defeats The First through good old fashioned plot luck. That's it. Caleb her cold so many times it was just stupid. The execution of vineyard was just beyond stupid. I love Buffy as much as the next person, but even the most hardcore fans of hers have to see that her plan was just suicide. If Caleb had a brain and had pursued her, they would have been eviscerated. But no, he cracked an evil, Snidely Whiplash grin as if he had some deeper plan (which he didn't) and left her alone. Dumb.
At this point, any sensible military command structure in the world would have instantly relieved her of command. On the spot. She attempted zero recon, she new nothing about Caleb or what he was capable of, and made no effort to find out. She didn't even have a real objective for going in. And people died because of it. Her next move was to head right back in! What!? Of course people balked. She didn't even take into consideration the state of her "troops" or their capacity. A few episodes later she proved that she was wrong by going in alone, stealthily.
God, sorry, I know I've ranted here, but it drives me insane. I really, really love studying strategy, tactics and military history. I'm really into it. So for me, this just drives me nuts, especially because Buffy is NOT stupid. She's proven in the past she can think and plan well. By S7, that's just gone.
Actually, I just rewatched Empty Places and something that Buffy says really stands out to me. After being kicked out, she tells Faith "their lives are yours". I think this whole thing is bang on, Buffy get a lot of smacks because people died because of her, but I think the reason she's not as smart in s7 as she is against other big bad guys on other seasons is that she had the pressure of being responsible for so many girls. Really, this just makes me feel bad for Buffy, she was thrown into having to be accounted for others life, and I don't think it's fair to blame her for failing in some instances.
Edit: I just read [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] answer, and he brought up a great point about Buffy's problem after her death being more prominent that it is initially showed. I think by s7, Buffy is an empty shell of the glorious slayer she used to be. Again, that only makes me sad for her, not mad at her failed attempt at leading.
Edit: I just read [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] answer, and he brought up a great point about Buffy's problem after her death being more prominent that it is initially showed. I think by s7, Buffy is an empty shell of the glorious slayer she used to be. Again, that only makes me sad for her, not mad at her failed attempt at leading.
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Robb Stark
[No message]
I can definitely see the mistakes that she made it was obvious she made a terrible decision. I can not defend her choices and I won't attempt to try. My issue is with several people and how they acted in that meeting and first and foremost it is Dawn that gets to me. I swear this is not my bias against Dawn (I abhor Dawn). How dare Dawn tell Buffy she has to leave and can't be a part of the group anymore? Dawn haddone nothing up to that point except whine and almost get herself and others killed not only by being a brat and making bad decisions because of it but also just by simply existing. That said she has no right to tell Buffy to leave her own home and group. Buffy very nearly sacrificed the entire world and she did give her own life in the process of saving the little brat. Secondly is Giles, I think a big part of the reason Giles goes against Buffy is because she had decided to make her own choices and not be so dependant on him and he couldn't handle it. The potentials had a right to balk about the decision because it was them at risk of dying but not to kick Buffy out. I'm not saying they had to listen to Buffy's insane plan but to vote her out is just crazy. For these people especially the scoobies, Giles and Dawnn to kick out the person that has saved the world and each of them countless times is just ludicrous to me. It just seems like they turned there back on her too easily and din't take into account what Buffy was going through emotionally. Not to mention they wanted FAIth to lead which I can not even comprehend. Buffy may have made some bad choices recently but last time they had seen Faith she had been a murderous psycho and is not that far removed from it. To me it seems like the potentials wanted Faith to lead because they thought she would be the easy going buddy buddy leader like she acted towards them when she took them to the bronze. When that didn't happen they seemed a little shocked to me. They wanted someone who was perfect and would get them through it all unscathed which is understandable but clearly not realistic. They turned on Buffy after a bad tactical decision and kicked her out then Faith leads them to the bomb and Turok Han by accident and then look out now everyone looks back to Buffy again to lead them after she comes and saves the day AGAIN!!! I don't think they had realistic expectations of the situation at all. So while Buffy was wrong with her choices everyone else treated her horribly and therefore draw my ire in this situation.
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Robb Stark
I can see all this.
I can agree with this... but I also think that "plot luck" makes them through pretty much every single episode of the show.
So, even if their plan in the final episode, as an example, might be a bit stupider than usual I still don't understand why so many people seems to be more upset about the strategies in season 7 than in the previous seasons.
Personally I don't care. Buffy has never been about being realistic. It's rather the opposite if anything. And that's a big part of what makes the show so fun imho.
But all we get to know about her second plan was that she had realised that it had to be something there, in the vineyard.
How they would go on about it was never discussed. Still I see again and again that people take for granted that they would do the exact same thing as the first time.
I've never understand that.
/SK
itssmiletime
Potential
I disagree about her getting more respect. She doesn't respect the people around her, so why should they respect her? Yeah, I mean, she may have not asked for it, but my god her mistakes and treatment of people are just flat out terrible that she gets absolutely no excuses for her flat out recklessness.
I think there is far too much emphasis in the show placed on the scythe. When Buffy kills three-ish ubervamps in End Of Days, my reaction is, well, Anya managed to kill two with a sword, new slayers managed to stake them so easily. It's not the scythe, it's the ubervamps. The scythe also lead to the empowerment spell- which was, a complete utter disaster, but it really played absolutely no role whatsoever- and lets not mention there were other ways to go about it without violating 2000 woman's body (just because they were already potentials, doesn't mean their body is play-doh)
People who share the blame with Buffy is willow, who agreed to do the empowerment spell, but apart from that- who else is there to hold accountable? In Dirty girls, everyone suggested to Buffy how stupid her plan was, the lack of logic in it, yet she still went ahead. She chose to keep Spike, with a trigger around, whereas everyone else knew he was a danger. Buffy even said it herself 'you need someone to lead' 'I am the law' 'Because I'm the slayer' and those quotes alone mean that she does have alot of responsibilty on her hands.
I think there is far too much emphasis in the show placed on the scythe. When Buffy kills three-ish ubervamps in End Of Days, my reaction is, well, Anya managed to kill two with a sword, new slayers managed to stake them so easily. It's not the scythe, it's the ubervamps. The scythe also lead to the empowerment spell- which was, a complete utter disaster, but it really played absolutely no role whatsoever- and lets not mention there were other ways to go about it without violating 2000 woman's body (just because they were already potentials, doesn't mean their body is play-doh)
People who share the blame with Buffy is willow, who agreed to do the empowerment spell, but apart from that- who else is there to hold accountable? In Dirty girls, everyone suggested to Buffy how stupid her plan was, the lack of logic in it, yet she still went ahead. She chose to keep Spike, with a trigger around, whereas everyone else knew he was a danger. Buffy even said it herself 'you need someone to lead' 'I am the law' 'Because I'm the slayer' and those quotes alone mean that she does have alot of responsibilty on her hands.
The scythe's importance was that it was the one thing that was able to kill Caleb. Without that he would have continued to massacre them every time they tried to attack the first and worse Caleb would have still been alive to launch an assault against them which would have turned out very badly had it not been for the scythe. And I don't understand your issue with the spell to give every potential the power of the slayer. At no point is it stated that just because they get the power they have to fight now it becomes a choice. And as far as Buffy getting respect sometimes it is just earned and Buffy had earned her respect from her actions in the first 6 seasons. Maybe your point could work for the potentials because they were not around while Buffy earned all the respect I believe she deserves but even still without her they would all have been picked off 1 by 1 anyway so right there should earn her a lot of respect from them. Buffy may have been making bad decisions that is undeniable but that does not give anyone the right to tell her to leave the group that wouldn't even be alive had it not been for her. And furthermore she is the rightful slayer and whether they follow her plan at that point is irrelevant to me but her being part of the cause should not have been up for negotiation. By no means is Buffy a great decision maker in season 7 but she is still a smart capable fighter that has more experience than all of them combined including Faith.
itssmiletime
Potential
Honestly, you don't even need the scythe to kill Caleb. Why not blow him up? Robb Stark has suggested on previous threads the effectiveness on blowing up The Judge and The Mayor in relation to Caleb and the vineyard.
My problems with the spell was that a) there is no consent. I do not believe that you can make such a massive change with a person's consent and knowledge. b) how governments would react- Slayers are all around the world. So you give 2000 random teenagers superpowers- people aren't just gonna shrug and get to the sports section of their morning paper. And no way can you keep that a secret
c) People died. Genevieve and Dana killed people d) Newly formed slayers feel 'obligated' to fight evil e) The economic ramifications of the spell: how are you going to fund guiding all of these slayers? Resources? f) Putting on a demon target on their backs for the rest of their lives.
I do agree that Buffy did deserve respect for her previous actions and life savings, yet that respect isn't permanent. If you treat the people around you like absolute trash, treat and constantly endanger their lives, that respect is going to go. I do agree she is a smart, capable fighter, but only for herself. Don't get me wrong- she can protect people, but not for an extended time or a for quite a large group. I think Buffy being the Slayer is given too much focus- I mean, really, not many demons actually care that she is the slayer- Adam and Glory really, really, didn't care. The Mayor found it 'interesting'. The Master was only concerned with a prophecy. Angelus seemed to be more focused in Buffy the individual not Buffy the slayer. The only 'villians' beyond MOTW that cared were Spike, Warren and The First.
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Robb Stark
[No message]
Actually most demons do care as a matter of fact how many times throughout the show has a random demon spoken about wanting to kill the slayer? Too many to count I know that. And the scythe was able to kill Caleb because it was mystical. I mean if we look at the judge it was said no weapon forged could kill him which was later determined that no weapon forged at that time could kill him hence the rocket launcher. Caleb on the other hand we are not given a limit on his invincibility if that is what it was so we really don't have the information to say that an explosion would kill him. We are not talking real life of course but who is to say that it didn't have to be a mystical weapon like the scythe to kill him? I don't really think she treated them like trash just more with indifference and while I will agree that earned respect is not infinite I don't think it should be as short lived as it was. I also only recall the one time where she risked their lives and that was at the vineyard. Her initial plan seemed to be to run back to the vineyard full force for the second time which was a mistake. The respect factor there would be to not go along with that plan but to come up with another way to do it which Buffy ended up doing anyway by going alone and using her agility to avoid him. During the confrontation Buffy did say that the plan was going to be that they go back to the vineyard but she did say they could plan it out better but she was immediately shot down and turned away from the group. Respect doesn't mean they had to just bend to her will. They simply should have all sat down and decided the best way to go to the vineyard which was important because IMHO the scythe was vital to the cause.
The whole no consent thing does not sit well with me because no slayer gets the consent of the power. When one slayer dies another is chosen and inherits the power whether she likes it or not it is up to her to use that power or not. I'm sorry but those slayers that you mentioned that killed people is a risk that is worth taking when it comes to the rewards of having that much firepower on the side of good. As for them feeling obligated well that is just too bad. A feeling of obligation is not the same as having no choice in the matter of fighting evil or not. I have felt obligated to do things but chose not to because it was not the right choice for me and that same rule applies in this situation. As far as the economic ramifications I don't really find that pertinent to the story nor do I think it is that big of an issue. If thousands and thousands of athletes and celebrities can make the astronomical amounts of money that they make then I see no issue with thousands of watchers getting paid whatever they make which I don't think would be that much. The amount of money that would be saved in damages to infrastructure alone would be worth millions if you think about the destruction some of these evil plans would cause.
Ethan Reigns
Potentials who were being hounded and killed by Bringers all over the world would have loved to have slayer power at the time. Consent would have been automatic.
white avenger
white avenger
In defense of Season 7 Buffy, I feel it important to point out that she never wanted or volunteered to be the leader of the group. Nobody else was there to do it, it had to be done, and she was the only one who even made an attempt to bring some degree of order into the mess that Giles dumped in her lap, then went running off to collect more Potentials. Buffy did the best that she could with her limited resources and considering the fact that she was one girl, no matter how powerful, standing against an army of Bringers, another army of Ubervamps, a psychotic, super powerful serial killer, and a being who personified the very essence of evil, I, for one, think that she did one hell of a job. As allies, she had a construction foreman, a brat kid sister, a "wicca who won't-a," an ex vengeance demon, a former criminal mastermind, and an ensouled, half delusional vampire who was at times under the control of her greatest enemy. Add to that, she had to hold down a job as school counselor and support a house full of strange teenaged girls. A load like that would break the strongest back.
Buffy did the best that she could with the resources at her disposal. If she had no experience as a general, neither did anyone else, including Giles, in the brief periods when he was around. Add to that, she got little to no support from the people who were supposed to be her friends, her mentor joined forces with a vengeance seeking phony high school principal to murder her strongest single ally.
Certainly, Buffy made mistakes. Her first, and biggest, was to establish from the very first that, if she was going to be the one giving the orders, then the orders that she gave weren't subject to popular vote. Get to it, or get out. That simple.
The particulars of her final plan about returning to the vineyard was never actually revealed, so we really don't know whether or not any of the Potentials would have been at risk, or not. I personally believe that Buffy would have tried to keep their risk at a minimum, but we will never know, since no one even gave her the courtesy of hearing them. We do know that she eventually did return to the vineyard and was successful in retrieving what Caleb was hiding there. For all that we know, that could have been her plan from the beginning, with everyone else creating a diversion nearby. But that's just speculation on my part.
The single biggest mistake that Buffy made in the whole campaign was in not having a private conference with Willow, Giles, Faith, and Spike, (Xander was in the hospital at the time) to explain her plans, work out the details, and be assured of her team's support. THEN, she, with them backing her up, could have explained to everyone else exactly what was going to happen, why, and how.
Yes, Buffy made mistakes in Season 7. Yes, quite a bit of her success was due to dumb luck and sheer audacity. But who among that little group, given the resources at hand, could have done even a little bit better?
Buffy did the best that she could with the resources at her disposal. If she had no experience as a general, neither did anyone else, including Giles, in the brief periods when he was around. Add to that, she got little to no support from the people who were supposed to be her friends, her mentor joined forces with a vengeance seeking phony high school principal to murder her strongest single ally.
Certainly, Buffy made mistakes. Her first, and biggest, was to establish from the very first that, if she was going to be the one giving the orders, then the orders that she gave weren't subject to popular vote. Get to it, or get out. That simple.
The particulars of her final plan about returning to the vineyard was never actually revealed, so we really don't know whether or not any of the Potentials would have been at risk, or not. I personally believe that Buffy would have tried to keep their risk at a minimum, but we will never know, since no one even gave her the courtesy of hearing them. We do know that she eventually did return to the vineyard and was successful in retrieving what Caleb was hiding there. For all that we know, that could have been her plan from the beginning, with everyone else creating a diversion nearby. But that's just speculation on my part.
The single biggest mistake that Buffy made in the whole campaign was in not having a private conference with Willow, Giles, Faith, and Spike, (Xander was in the hospital at the time) to explain her plans, work out the details, and be assured of her team's support. THEN, she, with them backing her up, could have explained to everyone else exactly what was going to happen, why, and how.
Yes, Buffy made mistakes in Season 7. Yes, quite a bit of her success was due to dumb luck and sheer audacity. But who among that little group, given the resources at hand, could have done even a little bit better?
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Robb Stark
Fair post
The Bronze
This is brilliant.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with your assessment of this.
white avenger
white avenger
On further thought, I think that there might have been one more mistake that Buffy made, and that just might have been the one that led to her troops' mutiny. At a point, probably when Robin suggested that she take some of the girls into battle at the vineyard, or maybe even awhile before that, the Potentials quit being a bunch of frightened little girls who Buffy was supposed to protect, and became soldiers, albeit involuntary ones, in the war against the First Evil. At that point, any delusions of democratic rule that they had previously had should have been dismissed, and the simple fact that Buffy was in charge, no ifs, ands, buts, or maybes involved. Her word was law until and unless she either relinquished or was no longer able to command. Anyone who couldn't live with that simple rule was free to leave.
Harsh? Yes. But also realistic. War isn't fought by democratic action.
(I'm sure that this is gonna stir up quite a bit of argument, so I'll see you all after church)
Harsh? Yes. But also realistic. War isn't fought by democratic action.
(I'm sure that this is gonna stir up quite a bit of argument, so I'll see you all after church)
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I always find it interesting that people defend Buffy in season 7, since she seems to admit she was wrong by completely changing how she leads the gang.
So clearly, I think Buffy made bad decisions in season 7. I definitely dont think she deserved more respect. She was incredibly disrespectful to the other characters on a number of number of occasions, she demanded stuff from not just of the potentials but also her friends. I can understand her demanding stuff from the potentials, but I also know that if someone had demanded something of her season 1, they'd be getting a similar reaction she got from the potentials.
Buffy is a hero and feels the need to do good, but she isn't one to take commands, When Giles gives her demands she'd hardly ever do them, but she'd always do the right thing.
She became a leader she wouldn't have respected or followed.
People try and defend Buffy by saying she didn't choose the job, but none of them choose to be there, the potentials didn't have a choice. the scoobies did choose to help, but they hadn't been treated like grunt workers for the previous 6 seasons, no need for her to be that way to them now.
Keeping Spike around was such a dumb plan. The only way to defend this is liking the character of Spike, becasue without that it's just dumb. I understand her reasons for keeping him around, but that doesn't make it any less of a dumb idea, in terms of decision making skills, keeping him in the house when he could have been triggered at any stage and killed the potentials or a scoobie is just dumb. And her trust in is irrelevent cuz Spike had no control if The First triggered him, It's like if she had Angel in the house and the The First was able to remove his soul for small bursts of time, she'd be trusting Angelus.
She wasn't keeping him around becasue he was a strong ally, that was Giles point. He was also arguably her weakest ally. At that point he could be triggered at any moment, so they couldn't' have even brought him into battle, he literally had no use. She should have spent more time trying to help and support Willow who is actually her strongest ally.
I dont think her decisions in Chosen were as bad as they get made out to be though. I agree her plan had flaws, but luck has always played a part in her battles, she was lucky Xander came with Angel to find her and was able to revive her, she was lucky Spike just wanted Dru in season 2, she was lucky Anya came back and told them how to kill the ascention demon, Season 4 is less lucky then it is actually replying on her friends, same with season 5 that was a strong plan that replied on her friends, she was lucky Giles turned up and Xander talked Willow down in season 6 - she basically did very little in that.
Like if you compare season 3 graduation plan and Season 5 The Gift plan with The Vineyard, both those first plans rely on her friends strengths and every person has a part to play, even the civilians she includes are loaded up with weapons and blow torches but when going into the Vineyard the plan is basically to all charge into the room, no magic, no major weapons, nothing.
She let her feelings cloud her judgment, let her feelings make her decisions and put her friends lives in danger then treated them like crap when they questioned her.
So clearly, I think Buffy made bad decisions in season 7. I definitely dont think she deserved more respect. She was incredibly disrespectful to the other characters on a number of number of occasions, she demanded stuff from not just of the potentials but also her friends. I can understand her demanding stuff from the potentials, but I also know that if someone had demanded something of her season 1, they'd be getting a similar reaction she got from the potentials.
Buffy is a hero and feels the need to do good, but she isn't one to take commands, When Giles gives her demands she'd hardly ever do them, but she'd always do the right thing.
She became a leader she wouldn't have respected or followed.
People try and defend Buffy by saying she didn't choose the job, but none of them choose to be there, the potentials didn't have a choice. the scoobies did choose to help, but they hadn't been treated like grunt workers for the previous 6 seasons, no need for her to be that way to them now.
Keeping Spike around was such a dumb plan. The only way to defend this is liking the character of Spike, becasue without that it's just dumb. I understand her reasons for keeping him around, but that doesn't make it any less of a dumb idea, in terms of decision making skills, keeping him in the house when he could have been triggered at any stage and killed the potentials or a scoobie is just dumb. And her trust in is irrelevent cuz Spike had no control if The First triggered him, It's like if she had Angel in the house and the The First was able to remove his soul for small bursts of time, she'd be trusting Angelus.
She wasn't keeping him around becasue he was a strong ally, that was Giles point. He was also arguably her weakest ally. At that point he could be triggered at any moment, so they couldn't' have even brought him into battle, he literally had no use. She should have spent more time trying to help and support Willow who is actually her strongest ally.
I dont think her decisions in Chosen were as bad as they get made out to be though. I agree her plan had flaws, but luck has always played a part in her battles, she was lucky Xander came with Angel to find her and was able to revive her, she was lucky Spike just wanted Dru in season 2, she was lucky Anya came back and told them how to kill the ascention demon, Season 4 is less lucky then it is actually replying on her friends, same with season 5 that was a strong plan that replied on her friends, she was lucky Giles turned up and Xander talked Willow down in season 6 - she basically did very little in that.
Like if you compare season 3 graduation plan and Season 5 The Gift plan with The Vineyard, both those first plans rely on her friends strengths and every person has a part to play, even the civilians she includes are loaded up with weapons and blow torches but when going into the Vineyard the plan is basically to all charge into the room, no magic, no major weapons, nothing.
She let her feelings cloud her judgment, let her feelings make her decisions and put her friends lives in danger then treated them like crap when they questioned her.
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EffyStonem
[No message]
I
itssmiletime
*stands up and applauds*
Something to take into account is that by that point Buffy considered Spike at the very least her true friend and in my opinion much more. So that said she would have done the same for any one of her friends. There is no way she would turn her back on someone she cares about she would do exactly what she did with Spike and try to find a way to help. I know that xander had been around much longer and was always good but if he was being controlled by the first and she kept him around I doubt anyone would have any issue with it. She cared about Spike so of course she wouldn't turn him away just like she wouldn't turn Xander or Willow away.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
You can't even mention Spike in passing without him getting defended...
I wasn't blaming Spike, it's just an example of Buffys bad decision making. If it had been Willow gone evil again, I'd definitely think she'd try and help her, but that wouldn't make it any less of a bad decision. The fact she'd do it for any of her closer friends doesn't make it a good decision. Which is the point of the thread, not Spike.
I'm not defending Spike I'm defending Buffy. I personally don't think that would have been used as an example if it was one of her other friends is my point. I think that Buffy was right to defend Spike in that situation just the same as if were Willow. I am certainly not saying all of Buffy's decisions were the right ones but IMO trying to help someone she cared about was not one of the bad ones. I also would like to point out that someone said the potentials did not have a choice but to be there but that is not true. They could have done whatever they wanted but it was beneficial for them to be there for their safety. They could have left if they chose to but they would have gotten killed. Nobody was forcing them to be there.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I dont think it would be used as an example if it was Xander or Willow cuz they are her closest friends there since the beginning.
But she had no problem killing Anya, and to imagine Willow or Xander in that scenario, we'd need Willow and Xander being vicious killers who killed for years, stalked and tried to rape her, to swap in Willow and Xander who've been doing good for 6 seasons with their current history is irrelevant.
If I swap in Angel becoming Angelus I'd still call her an idiot.
Yeah I said it, and I dont think you have a real reason there, by that same logic anyone that said Buffy didn't have a choice is also wrong, she did she could have chosen to not help the potentials.
There choice was get help from the slayer or die, it's not a real choice.
I will never be quoted saying Buffy had no choice because she had a choice from the beginning. I didn't say leaving was a good choice but there is a choice. My point is just that she cared for Spike as much as she did the others IMO by that point so her actions toward Spike were what she would have done with anyone else she cares for so that's why I don't think it should be used in that type of example. Oh and also I just realized that the choice for the potentials doesn't have to be so black and white unless I am forgetting something. As far as I remember being under Buffy's protection does not mean they have to go fight. I don't think for a second if one of them said they were afraid and would not fight that they would have been sent out the door to their death. So there is an alternative.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Of couse every situation has a choice, but they didn't have a choice to be potentials.
If it was Angel would you think the same?
They weren't given a choice to fight at first, thats the entire point of Chosen, Buffy actually gives them a choice to fight.
No they had no choice to be potential but I don't remember anyone ever telling those girls that they had no choice but to fight. If I am missing something there please share so I can
see where I went wrong with that. Yes I would feel the same if it were Angel or any one of her other friends. Regardless of what one may think I do not dislike Angel. I am a Spuffy fan but I still like Angel a lot.