Buffy's love for Angel

[SoBlind]

Buffy: "I killed Angel. Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with--"¦ I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life, and I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

Do you think that's true? With all those speeches she's given about how much she loves Dawn and how she would kill anyone that tries to hurt her, did she really love Angel "more than anything she'll ever love in this life"? Or was it just for the drama of the show and a build-up for the finale were she and him have that kiss. Then again, it's Joss Whedon's show and even though he doesn't write every single episode, he does have to approve them and he's not known for writing/having lines just for the hell of it...

If she had to decide between Angel and Dawn, who would she pick? (not saying that the the person she doesn't choose would necessarily have to die...)

 

[white avenger]

I think that she really, honestly believed it when she said it. I also believe that she would most likely not be able to honestly make that statement twenty years later Given her age, and her limited experience with men however, that's like someone saying that vanilla is their favorite flavor of ice cream before their first trip to a Baskin Robbins ice cream shop.

 

[OldSwede]

I think that she really, honestly believed it when she said it. I also believe that she would most likely not be able to honestly make that statement twenty years later Given her age, and her limited experience with men however, that's like someone saying that vanilla is their favorite flavor of ice cream before their first trip to a Baskin Robbins ice cream shop.

Well said. Also, ranking love between partners (Angel) and family (Dawn) adds another twist. Buffy is something of a mother to Dawn at this point. I think most ("normal") parents would agree that love for a child "always" come before love for a partner, even in a life or death situation. I certainly would expect my wife to choose my children's lives over mine, if it ever would come to that.

But then Dawn isn't really Buffy's daughter but a sister, and not even entirely real, so there's another level of complexity. It would certainly have been an interesting scene, letting her make the choice in a hard way! I think she would have saved Dawn, though...

 

[Urgent Power]

I don't know. But if we take Spike for example, towards the end of season 7, Buffy would never let him die, she wouldn't let anyone hurt him, whereas at this same time exactly, even the same scene, she states that statement about Dawn, she will let her die.

So if she puts Spike in this high position of not letting him die, Maybe she feels the same way about Angel. But we must remember that Angel and her are in a different place at the time, they're not in the end of season 2 anymore. She hadn't seen him in a long time and we don't know if she would sacrifice Angel again like she would Dawn. It was season 2, five years ago when she killed Angel for the world. Not really my point though, lol.

So what we do know? Buffy would choose Spike over Dawn.

Angel or Dawn? I think Dawn. Because even though She loves him, she did sacrifice him once. Even though she loved him more than anything at the time (season 2) she did kill him

Sorry if I'm messy, I kinda confused myself.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I don't know. But if we take Spike for example, towards the end of season 7, Buffy would never let him die, she wouldn't let anyone hurt him, whereas at this same time exactly, even the same scene, she states that statement about Dawn, she will let her die.

So if she puts Spike in this high position of not letting him die, Maybe she feels the same way about Angel. But we must remember that Angel and her are in a different place at the time, they're not in the end of season 2 anymore. She hadn't seen him in a long time and we don't know if she would sacrifice Angel again like she would Dawn. It was season 2, five years ago when she killed Angel for the world. Not really my point though, lol.

So what we do know? Buffy would choose Spike over Dawn.

Angel or Dawn? I think Dawn. Because even though She loves him, she did sacrifice him once. Even though she loved him more than anything at the time (season 2) she did kill him

Sorry if I'm messy, I kinda confused myself.

But remember with the Spike protection, it was not out of love for him that she did so (even though I'm one of those who say she did love him), but out of the adamant conviction that the battle to save the world could not be won without him - so her reasons for killing Angel, killing Dawn and protecting Spike all boil down to the same: she'd do anything and everything necessary to save the world, including killing people she loves, should that become necessary.

 

[white avenger]

But remember with the Spike protection, it was not out of love for him that she did so (even though I'm one of those who say she did love him), but out of the adamant conviction that the battle to save the world could not be won without him .

I'm not sure that we in all honesty can say that she actually knew just how an important a role that Spike would play in the final battle. Maybe she had her suspicions, based on just how hard the First Evil was working to make him appear to be a real menace to her and her friends, almost in the hopes that she would kill him, but Buffy's faith in Spike and his ability to be a better man was just that: faith.

It might have been for purely practical reasons. As she said more than once, he was, even after Faith arrived, the most powerful fighter in her army, and the only one who she trusted implicitly to watch her back and help in protecting the household. She had trusted him since Season 5 ("Besides me, he's the only one who has even a chance of fighting Glory. He stays. Get used to it.") She trusted him to protect Dawn in Season 6, even after "Seeing Red."

It bears repeating. Spike was Buffy's most powerful fighter, and she trusted his loyalty beyond any doubt. She had no doubts that, whatever else might happen, she could depend on him. That's all that she really needed to know. ("You may not believe it, Spike, but I do. I do. I believe in you." That just about says it all.)

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm not sure that we in all honesty can say that she actually knew just how an important a role that Spike would play in the final battle. Maybe she had her suspicions, based on just how hard the First Evil was working to make him appear to be a real menace to her and her friends, almost in the hopes that she would kill him, but Buffy's faith in Spike and his ability to be a better man was just that: faith.

It might have been for purely practical reasons. As she said more than once, he was, even after Faith arrived, the most powerful fighter in her army, and the only one who she trusted implicitly to watch her back and help in protecting the household. She had trusted him since Season 5 ("Besides me, he's the only one who has even a chance of fighting Glory. He stays. Get used to it.") She trusted him to protect Dawn in Season 6, even after "Seeing Red."

It bears repeating. Spike was Buffy's most powerful fighter, and she trusted his loyalty beyond any doubt. She had no doubts that, whatever else might happen, she could depend on him. That's all that she really needed to know. ("You may not believe it, Spike, but I do. I do. I believe in you." That just about says it all.)

Actually, I didn't mean to say she knew that he'd be so pivotal in the final seconds of Sunnydale. With "the battle couldn't be won without him", I meant exactly what you said - she regarded him as "her most important soldier" (to stay in the war/general analogy), without whom the line of defense could probably break town in no time.

 

[SoBlind]

But remember with the Spike protection, it was not out of love for him that she did so (even though I'm one of those who say she did love him), but out of the adamant conviction that the battle to save the world could not be won without him - so her reasons for killing Angel, killing Dawn and protecting Spike all boil down to the same: she'd do anything and everything necessary to save the world, including killing people she loves, should that become necessary.

mm thats an interesting point. and it does make sense. but at the same time, remember that buffy didnt kill dawn, even though it would've saved the world. but i guess we'll never know what she really would have done seeing that in the end she sacrificed herself instead of having to choose between saving her sister and saving the world. personally, i think she couldn't have killed her. i believe if there hadn't been a different option, dawn would have jumped into the portal herself and buffy would have let her do it
i also think that killing angel in season 2 left such a big scar that buffy wouldnt have been able to sacrifice anyone she loves like that again.

im still unsure about that 'loved him more anything i will ever love in this life' comment, though. it's a toughy 😛

 

[Urgent Power]

But remember with the Spike protection, it was not out of love for him that she did so (even though I'm one of those who say she did love him), but out of the adamant conviction that the battle to save the world could not be won without him - so her reasons for killing Angel, killing Dawn and protecting Spike all boil down to the same: she'd do anything and everything necessary to save the world, including killing people she loves, should that become necessary.

But you don't know that for sure. I mean, do you really believe Buffy wanted Spike safe only because he's important to the fight itself? No, I believe he's important to her, and that's the main reason she kept him, I believe it was out of love. Remember in "First Date", when Spike told Buffy he will leave town, Buffy didn't let him and she said not because they need a demon fighter, but because she's not ready for him to not be there. It was a personal issue, the feelings she felt for him. The point is, even though she was ready to kill Dawn to save the world, that wasn't the case with Spike. She woulnd't let him die if it was to save the world. Same season, same episode, same time when she says it about Dawn and Spike. I know, she didn't exaclty say it about Spike out loud, but it came out of her words, if you know what I mean.

 

[SoBlind]

"The point is, even though she was ready to kill Dawn to save the world(...)"

what makes you say that?

 

[bob6666]

few points trusting spike they way she did was stupid. He killed why under the first control, and there was a chance that there could be a second trigger. spike cared about buffy, but he never should that he cared about anyone else.

willow was far more powerful then buffy. and her magic was more important.

buffy had a idea that alumant could kill the person who wared it. and had spike ware not angel i belive she would rather have spike killed then angel.

buffy would kill anyone to save the world. she let spike die to save the world, killed angel to save the world, and would have kill dawn to save the world. my big problem is that she would not kill spike to save a life, or angle. there were time when leaving him alive would cost a innecent lives. and she still let him live.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Do you think that's true? With all those speeches she's given about how much she loves Dawn and how she would kill anyone that tries to hurt her, did she really love Angel "more than anything she'll ever love in this life"? Or was it just for the drama of the show and a build-up for the finale were she and him have that kiss. Then again, it's Joss Whedon's show and even though he doesn't write every single episode, he does have to approve them and he's not known for writing/having lines just for the hell of it...

If she had to decide between Angel and Dawn, who would she pick? (not saying that the the person she doesn't choose would necessarily have to die...)

Interesting idea. What an episode that would have been! Buffy having to choose between Angel and Dawn.
Hmm. I don't know who she would have choose.
Yet, I do firmly believe she really loves Angel. She always has. She knows it could never work with them, and so does he, but that does not mean she doesn't love him.
She also understands her responsibilty. That's why she was willing to kill him for the purpose.
She is a true hero, our little Bufferin'. 🙂 This is what I've always said.

 

[VisionGuy]

Buffy contradicts herself because in another episode, I forget which one, she said Joyce is the person she loved more than anyone. Of course that's her mom so it's obviously a different kind of love but she doesn't really specify so it's still a contradiction.

And I honestly think that Buffy would save Dawn over Angel if she had to choose. I think she'd save Willow and Xander over Angel too.

 

[palabravampiress]

I think Buffy is "full of love" so that, in any given situation, the person in question seems like the most important person in the world to her. I think she means it when she declares someone the most loved person in her life because, for Buffy, the feelings are so strong that she can't imagine them to indicate anything else. When it comes down to it, though, I think someone who once sacrificed her loved and then later sacrificed her own life in order to save the world would pretty much sacrifice anyone dear to her if the world required it. I don't think it's a matter of who she loves the most; I think it's a matter of putting her duty to the world above her feelings for her friends/family/lovers.

All of that said... yeah; it is kinda confusing. I really WANT Buffy to put Dawnie before Angel. She's a sister/mother figure to her, man, and she and Angel split years ago. Family should come first. I think Buffy feels for Dawn something akin to what Giles feels for Buffy. In these cases, I think family should come before lovers. Of course, maybe that's silly of me. I would save my husband before I'd save my sister. Granted, by marrying my hubby, I made him my next-of-kin. Maybe Buffy feels similarly about Angel (even though they've been split up for years and have both loved other people?). I guess what I'm saying is that there is a difference between the family that you're given and the family that you choose, and maybe for Buffy, Angel falls into the chosen next-of-kin category.

 

[white avenger]

Interesting idea. What an episode that would have been! Buffy having to choose between Angel and Dawn.

Even more interesting: what if she had to choose between Spike and Angel, knowing that one or the other, whoever she chose, had a very high probability of dying.

Or MORE more interesting, Spike, Angel, and Dawn were all about to be killed, and she could only save one...

 

[Fake Shemp]

she was a teenage girl (remember... lol even doodled on her school books like teenage girls do)

 

[Urgent Power]

Even more interesting: what if she had to choose between Spike and Angel, knowing that one or the other, whoever she chose, had a very high probability of dying.

Or MORE more interesting, Spike, Angel, and Dawn were all about to be killed, and she could only save one...

I have been dreaming of this episode for awhile now. Could be very interesting.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I think Buffy is "full of love" so that, in any given situation, the person in question seems like the most important person in the world to her. I think she means it when she declares someone the most loved person in her life because, for Buffy, the feelings are so strong that she can't imagine them to indicate anything else. When it comes down to it, though, I think someone who once sacrificed her loved and then later sacrificed her own life in order to save the world would pretty much sacrifice anyone dear to her if the world required it. I don't think it's a matter of who she loves the most; I think it's a matter of putting her duty to the world above her feelings for her friends/family/lovers.

All of that said... yeah; it is kinda confusing. I really WANT Buffy to put Dawnie before Angel. She's a sister/mother figure to her, man, and she and Angel split years ago. Family should come first. I think Buffy feels for Dawn something akin to what Giles feels for Buffy. In these cases, I think family should come before lovers. Of course, maybe that's silly of me. I would save my husband before I'd save my sister. Granted, by marrying my hubby, I made him my next-of-kin. Maybe Buffy feels similarly about Angel (even though they've been split up for years and have both loved other people?). I guess what I'm saying is that there is a difference between the family that you're given and the family that you choose, and maybe for Buffy, Angel falls into the chosen next-of-kin category.

Absolutely agree with the first part; that's how I see love myself - the person you're with, at a given moment, being the most important person in your life, while that won't detract from someone else you love holding that position at another point of time. Weighing different "loves" as greater or lesser ain't my thing... to me, it either is love or isn't - a matter of quality, not quantity.

With the second part, I have to say that Dawn would probably rate as chosen next-of-kin, too. After all, Buffy has known for years now that Dawn isn't her "real" sister, but CHOSE not too make the distinction of whether Dawn originated in Joyce's belly or as a green ball of light... So were back on speculation who would "win out" in a Dawn vs. Angel dilemma.

 

[Buffanator]

The point I see is that Buffy said "I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life" - she didn't say "I LOVE him more..." she said LOVED. Past tense.

So I think IF SHE HAD TO CHOOSE, she'd choose Dawn. Even in the end, she had Xander knock Dawn out & take her out of town to try to "save her". So yeah, I say Dawn.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Oh my....all these maybes. 🙂