Buffy's love for Angel

Keanoite said:
Love makes you do the wacky. I don't think the belief that you will never loved another as you love a certain person makes a love immature. No matter how mature you are, when you fall in love you feel that. You think that no one has ever felt the way you feel now. You can be 15 or 50 when that feeling overtakes you. Spike makes proclaimation like this about Buffy yet he is never described as childish or immature, in fact he is seen as hopelessly romantic.

It works both ways folks.
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Meh, differing opinions. Will take your comment on Spike, though, touché. Although I don't remember him saying he could never love anything else as much, which is where I find my problem with Buffy's statement. That's saying your friends, your sister, your... whatever Spike was, could never mean as much as that one person. Just don't agree with it.
 
Kelsey said:
Meh, differing opinions. Will take your comment on Spike, though, touché. Although I don't remember him saying he could never love anything else as much, which is where I find my problem with Buffy's statement. That's saying your friends, your sister, your... whatever Spike was, could never mean as much as that one person. Just don't agree with it.
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He describes Buffy as 'the one' as his everything, that no-one else could replace her. That overshadows his love for Drusilla, someone who when we meet him he is tenderly in love with.

To me that is just as disrespectful as Buffy saying she will never love anyone as much as she loves Angel.
 
Keanoite said:
He describes Buffy as 'the one' as his everything, that no-one else could replace her. That overshadows his love for Drusilla, someone who when we meet him he is tenderly in love with.

To me that is just as disrespectful as Buffy saying she will never love anyone as much as she loves Angel.
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Hadn't thought of it in that context before, but again, I get your point. I think where our opinions differ is the fact that you think Angel and Buffy's love really is that all-encompassing and powerful, and I view it somewhat differently. Through my thought-process, her statement was immature and disrespectful, because of the reasons I've already explained. I don't think that either of our opinions are wrong, just different.

I've already conceded that it was a powerful, real experience for both of them. But I will hold to the idea that the relationship wasn't meant to last.
 
Kelsey said:
Hadn't thought of it in that context before, but again, I get your point. I think where our opinions differ is the fact that you think Angel and Buffy's love really is that all-encompassing and powerful, and I view it somewhat differently. Through my thought-process, her statement was immature and disrespectful, because of the reasons I've already explained. I don't think that either of our opinions are wrong, just different.

I've already conceded that it was a powerful, real experience for both of them. But I will hold to the idea that the relationship wasn't meant to last.
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Well an opinion can't really be wrong...unless of course in your opinion the sky is brown lol
 
Urgent Power said:
I don't know. But if we take Spike for example, towards the end of season 7, Buffy would never let him die, she wouldn't let anyone hurt him, whereas at this same time exactly, even the same scene, she states that statement about Dawn, she will let her die.

So if she puts Spike in this high position of not letting him die, Maybe she feels the same way about Angel. But we must remember that Angel and her are in a different place at the time, they're not in the end of season 2 anymore. She hadn't seen him in a long time and we don't know if she would sacrifice Angel again like she would Dawn. It was season 2, five years ago when she killed Angel for the world. Not really my point though, lol.

So what we do know? Buffy would choose Spike over Dawn.

Angel or Dawn? I think Dawn. Because even though She loves him, she did sacrifice him once. Even though she loved him more than anything at the time (season 2) she did kill him

Sorry if I'm messy, I kinda confused myself.
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Great point about Buffy chosing Spike over Dawn...
 
SoBlind said:
Do you think that's true? With all those speeches she's given about how much she loves Dawn and how she would kill anyone that tries to hurt her, did she really love Angel "more than anything she'll ever love in this life"? Or was it just for the drama of the show and a build-up for the finale were she and him have that kiss. QUOTE]


Maybe the monks who created Dawn and altered everybody's memories to include her also implanted the conviction within Buffy, and to a lesser degree everyone else associated her, that her safety and preservation was their prime concern. Giles, being probably the most cynical of the group, was the least affected by the spell, and the only one who actually proposed killing Dawn if it came down to being the only way to keep Glory from getting her. It might even explain why evil, soul-less, blood sucking undead fiend Spike felt such loyalty and affection for the little pain in the a**.

That might also explain why Buffy's feelings for Ol' Broody didn't run as deep as her commitment to protecting Dawn AND why, in Season 7, she says that she would at that time be more realistic about sacrificing Dawn in order to save the world. By then the monks' influence, as well as Dawn's usefulness as the Key, were two years in the past.
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white avenger said:
SoBlind said:
Do you think that's true? With all those speeches she's given about how much she loves Dawn and how she would kill anyone that tries to hurt her, did she really love Angel "more than anything she'll ever love in this life"? Or was it just for the drama of the show and a build-up for the finale were she and him have that kiss. QUOTE]


Maybe the monks who created Dawn and altered everybody's memories to include her also implanted the conviction within Buffy, and to a lesser degree everyone else associated her, that her safety and preservation was their prime concern. Giles, being probably the most cynical of the group, was the least affected by the spell, and the only one who actually proposed killing Dawn if it came down to being the only way to keep Glory from getting her. It might even explain why evil, soul-less, blood sucking undead fiend Spike felt such loyalty and affection for the little pain in the a**.

That might also explain why Buffy's feelings for Ol' Broody didn't run as deep as her commitment to protecting Dawn AND why, in Season 7, she says that she would at that time be more realistic about sacrificing Dawn in order to save the world. By then the monks' influence, as well as Dawn's usefulness as the Key, were two years in the past.
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I think it had more to do with the fact that she had seen and experieced Heaven. She knew the joy and peace it brings. I think she was confident in the fact that if anything happened to Dawn, that's where she would go. Buffy could live her life knowing that.
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I do agree with whoever said that we need to focus on the past tense of her comment:

I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life...

Possibly, she no longer loves him "more than anything". Maybe you think she loves Spike now. Maybe you think Dawn is really her true love. Maybe you think she had indeed lost her ability to love.

I am always delighted to hear people's opinions on Bangel and Spuffy. People disagree so strongly and have such great arguments. Like Urgent Power said - we will never stop arguing about this. It will never end. More then one interpretation of the same exact scene may be equally valid because many factors aside from the writers intent impact meaning. Joss Whedon intended for us to make our own assumption. He wanted to please both parties.

But on the subject of Dawn vs. Angel - at that point, S7 - I can't see her choosing Angel over Dawn. I just can't. I believe her love for Dawn was stronger even than her love for Angel or even for her mother. Dawn was her - made out of her blood, made from her to protect. As she says she's more then her sister, she's her. Letting Dawn die, i.e. killing her - would be like killing herself. She would let Dawn die at this point - but it would kill her.
 
I think it depends on what the situation is but if it was Dawn or Angel I think she would pick Dawn the same way Angel would pick Connor.
 
I think as far as romantic relationships go, Buffy loved Angel more than anyone else. I don't think she meant more than anyone in general. That's just my opinion though. Of course she would choose her friends & family over Angel though. It's just a hard situation for her to be in. She chose the whole world over him at the end of season two but then she was kinda hesitant to choose her friends & family over him in season three but nobody really understood her situation though, in her eyes anyways.
 
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SoBlind said:
Do you think that's true? With all those speeches she's given about how much she loves Dawn and how she would kill anyone that tries to hurt her, did she really love Angel "more than anything she'll ever love in this life"? Or was it just for the drama of the show and a build-up for the finale were she and him have that kiss. Then again, it's Joss Whedon's show and even though he doesn't write every single episode, he does have to approve them and he's not known for writing/having lines just for the hell of it...
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I think there's difference between the love you have for a family member (more important a sibling), and a lover. I believe that Buffy would have "gone to bat" for both Angel and Dawn, and that her love for both of them was valid. Keep in mind that Buffy was alot younger when she met and fell in love with Angel, and a persons methods of displaying or vocalizing their love may mature or change with age.
However, if she was forced to choose between her sister and her lover I think morality would drive her to choose her sister. What's that old saying? Blood is thicker than water.
 
Again I raise the point it depends whether she is think as the slayer or Buffy. In season 6 and 7 she is more slayer than Buffy, so I think she may chose Angel because he can help the world. Dawn would struggle staking a vampire.lol
I don't think she would chose between them though, she would fight to save them both. : )

(Ps Personally I don't see that Buffy relationship with Angel, is anymore immature than her one with Spike)
 
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Before I go ahead, let me just say that these are my personal opinions. Together with a bus token they would get you on a bus, so please don't take what I say defensively- I realize they may come off that way...

Maybe I didn't word myself correctly, as I was not trying to insinuate that Bangel was any more immature than Spuffy. Especially since that issue is not what the thread is in regards to. I was simply stating that a persons methods of expressing love may differ over the years. And I don't think that Buffy ever loved Angel for his strength and ability, or for the fact that he could save the world. If she did, then it wouldn't really be love then...would it? And I don't believe that she loved Dawn any less because she had no strength or capabilities. I believe Buffys love for her friends, lovers and family was extremely deep and as I said before, valid. IMO Buffy made her decisions as herself, and as the slayer- Because she had no choice. In her case they were one and the same. I'm not sure I buy that she would choose Angel because there was another pending appocolypse... I DO however agree that she would probably find a way to save them both, but judging by the phrasing of the original question- I did not think that that was an option.
 
I think that Buffy would have chosen Dawn over Spike and Angel. No matter how much she loved the two vamps, she would always choose Dawn over them.

Despite telling Giles that she was willing to sacrifice Dawn for the fight, Buffy ended up instructing Xander to drive Dawn out of Sunnydale before the final battle. It was Dawn who made the decision to return to Sunnydale and participate in the fight. Dawn made that choice, not Buffy.
 
She would choose Dawn, I have no question about it, she would always choose Dawn, and in response to some things said about her choosing Spike to wear the amulet because she'd rather him die than Angel is ludacris. She needed Angel to leave in large part because of her relationship with Spike, I don't think the amulet entered into it.
 
SoBlind said:
Do you think that's true? With all those speeches she's given about how much she loves Dawn and how she would kill anyone that tries to hurt her, did she really love Angel "more than anything she'll ever love in this life"? Or was it just for the drama of the show and a build-up for the finale were she and him have that kiss. Then again, it's Joss Whedon's show and even though he doesn't write every single episode, he does have to approve them and he's not known for writing/having lines just for the hell of it...

If she had to decide between Angel and Dawn, who would she pick? (not saying that the the person she doesn't choose would necessarily have to die...)
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Hmm... I don't know. I think that, to Buffy, the two most important people in her life are Dawn and Angel. Dawn she died for. Angel she killed. The love that she has for them is pretty deep, but but let's also remember that Buffy also loves her friends as well, like Xander, Willow, Anya, Tara, etc., and it's hard to know who she'd pick if it was a choice between any of them or Dawn and Angel.
 
After reading through the whole thread, it is totally down to whether you liked Buffy and Angel, or Buffy or Spike!

Personally I don't think she ever loved, or will love, anyone more than she loved Angel. Someone has already said that he still has a massive presence within Buffy even when's he not there. And would they have behaved and spoken to each other the way they did in 'Chosen' if, after everything both of them had been through in 4 years, they didn't still love each other?

Plus Buffy is totally jealous of Faith's mindwalk with Angel LOL!

Also I disagree with someone who said that she trusted Spike more than she ever trusted Angel - which is kinda unfair. Considering their relationship in 2 and 3, it is Angel that she trusts, she tells him everything and goes to him when she is in need (Helpless etc). If the tables had turned and Angel was still about in Seasons 5 onwards, Angel would have been the only person that she trusted with Dawn, similarly if Angel had have been around when their were all these crazy moments in Buffy's life when she needed someone to trust - totally would have been him.

But I'm not a Buffy/Angel lover or anything...really 🙂
 
HOWEVER, at this point, she woulnd't let Spike die (until the last episode). Agaiin, at this point, she would not sacrifice Spike but she would sacrifice Dawn.
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I don't think this comparison makes sense, because not 'letting Spike die' refers in this case to not letting Robin Wood kill him in order to satisfy a personal vendetta against someone who doesn't even exist anymore. That is not the same as choosing to kill someone to save the world, which is the choice she had to make with Angel in season 2 and with Dawn in season 5. I think she truly loved Angel in season 2 and also Dawn, but her decisions were different. While i think that her duty as a slayer entered into it partially, that only dominated her choice in season 2 and not in season 5. The other consideration was, in both cases, trying to find another way, and only using killing if all else failed - so once the portal was opened or the demon awakened, then there was no other choice, but before that, she first tried to stop those things from happening in the first place. Once it was clear that someone had to die, then she killed Angel despite how much she loved him but with Dawn she had another option since they shared the same blood.

She agrees with Giles in season 7 that she would act differently now if she had to choose to kill someone she loves in order to save the world. But i think if she had to choose to save only one person, angel or dawn, she would still choose dawn, probably because of the innocence and family aspects.
 
I think as far as romantic relationships go, Buffy loved Angel more than anyone else.
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I don't think that's true anymore. I'm not saying that Buffy now loves Spike more than Angel. But I don't think that she loves Angel more than Spike. When it comes to romance, she seems to think about both vampires.


Also I disagree with someone who said that she trusted Spike more than she ever trusted Angel - which is kinda unfair. Considering their relationship in 2 and 3, it is Angel that she trusts, she tells him everything and goes to him when she is in need (Helpless etc).
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She was doing that with Spike in early Season 6 and later in Season 7.
 
LadyLavinia said:
She was doing that with Spike in early Season 6 and later in Season 7.
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Ha, I didn't think about that, of course she does. Could even go as far to say that Spike was more that type of person for her. She went to him a lot more than we see her go to Angel, even though I suppose the issues she had in the later seasons were a little bigger than those of the earlier seasons.
 
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