Buffys Outrage in "No Place like home"

C

CordelliasHeart

Potential
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
223
I found the scene where Buffy threatens Dawn upsetting in retrospect, Considering how confused and hurt Dawn probaly felt, Im pretty sure buffy, once she understood things better felt terrible about it, but to make a point.

Buffy was clearly starting to think that Dawn was some kind of powerful demon or such wearing a human form that was able to manufacture memorys on a massive scale and had insinuated herself into buffys own fmaily

Not an unreasonable assumption based on what the divinations revealed.

But I think she'd be more bewildered then confrontational.

Dont get me wrong she has every right to feel violated, at the monks altering her memorys and her friends and familys, and essentialy "Creating" A familial relationship. I dont disagree.

But it seems to me her first act after the divination, should have been to go to Giles, not risk a physical confrontation with what might be a very potent demon capable of casually rewriting human minds.

Feels like it was a scene set to create a degree of hurt, so that their can be a scene of healing and thus "Bonding" at the end of the episode.

Just a thought.
 
Buffy thought a threat - a demon, witch, something else - had forced it's way into her home, where her mother lives, the place she is most vulnerable. I think she showed great restraint in that scene.

She's the Slayer, killer of evil things. That's her job description, and she's not the Kendra kind of Slayer who runs to her Watcher for instructions before she takes on any kind of threat. She tackles things head-on and, if she thinks she needs help, she takes a step back, regroups, and comes up with another option. Which is exactly what she did here.

Dawn's feelings here are irrelevant at the moment of this scene. We (meaning the viewers) also saw Dawn as a threat up until this point. She was presented that way, as the creepy child, and it's only with that retrospect that you were talking about that we see how it could have affected Dawn. But at the time, we were in Buffy's shoes, and we made it up to Dawn later. Or, at least, some of us did, I know there are people out there who wish she'd probably been killed in this scene or before the end of the season.

As the Slayer, Buffy's first instinct is to take out the threat. At the moment of that scene, the threat was Dawn and it's only when Dawn failed to act the way Buffy expected her to that Buffy wondered if something more was going on.

Any other Slayer, though, even Faith or Kendra, I really think they would have killed Dawn at this point. Spell or no spell.
 
Valid points, I suppose it comes from not having watched things in order.

But while your right she had a right to be edgy, it seemed to me that granting that presuposition, a "Dont let her know Im on to her" attitude might have been appropiate.
 
Sorry to Bump just On emore thing I think needs mentioning...

At the end of First Season Angel said some prophecy just HAD to be flawed, he didnt know why but it just HAD to have a flaw of some kind in it, something they werent seeing.

Buffy should, by all rights, have had the same kind of reaction, especialy towards someone who, 10 minutes ago anyway, as far as she knew was a blood relative.

Theirs only 2 ways to Rationalize her reaction in that context.

either A: It weakened the grip of the constructed memorys causing buffy to see through them, or at least vaguely remember the original way things happened, in ways that only made sense with her being an only child.

or B: Buffys a Psychopath

Because by all rights, if neither of the above is true if buffy just saw the sensorary effects the audience did, She should have been going "Probaly a flaw in the divination... I must have missed some step... Maybe her exposure to this or that, caused the divination to focus on her, or maybe some Demons going to try erasing her from history

Does that make sense?

As Getting you to doubt your memorys, especialy something this basic and pervasive... is something I just think should take some doing, even with the existence of demons and witches being a established fact in the franchise.

And the "Granting that supposition do you really want to let her know your onto her?" thing still stands.
 
I'm sorry, but I'll never change my mind about Buffy in this scene.

She was right. She was right to be scared that something was after her, after her mother, that someone, someTHING, had manipulated her and the rest of the people in her life to get close to her to do something terrible. Buffy had the exact reaction a Slayer SHOULD have had.

I mentioned in the other thread that I thought that this was Buffy's Slayer side rebelling against the spell to create Dawn, and I will always think that.

Put it this way, the Slayer side of Buffy? It doesn't know Dawn, it has no emotional connection to Dawn or anyone at all. It senses a threat and it acts, regardless of who that threat is in the guise of. Because its first and only instinct and reason for being is to defend the world against the forces of darkness or anything it perceives as a threat.

It's Buffy's humanity that reins the Slayer in. It's only Buffy's humanity and consciousness that stops the Slayer from killing Dawn outright in that episode. Buffy held the Slayer back.

Also, that prophecy that Angel and Giles found, there was nothing more to it. The prophecy came true, Buffy died. She just didn't stay dead.
 
Fair points maybe.

But it took buffy a lot to become violent towards Ted...

And id say he shows potentialy dangerous signals very early in his Episode.

so much so i was never able to watch the episode straight through.

She only hits him after he hits her first... trying to intimidate her.

also heres a sizable Question.

Why did buffy, not tell Dawn at the end of the episode, she apolagized, and seemed to feel genuinely guilty, but she didnt tell her.

Why should she?

Well an apolagy doesnt explain the (It would appear to dawns eyes at least) Psychotic behaviour, and rambling, without an explanation.

"I had a bad day" doesnt satisfy the seeming freakish Questions asked or commands.
 
Because telling Dawn would mean telling Dawn EVERYTHING and that was the absolute last thing that Buffy wanted to do. She never wants Dawn to find out, she hates Spike for letting Dawn find out the way she did, alone, with no one there only a soulless demon who only tolerates her at that point, someone she has no connection to and can't comfort her.

Once Buffy knows the truth, everything in her - including the Slayer - turns to protecting Dawn above all else and telling her the truth about why she kicked off, isn't protecting her as far as Buffy is concerned.

As for Ted, yes, Buffy did suspect early on that there was something off about Ted, but she didn't think he wasn't human. When she thinks she'd killed Ted, she admits that he was human, that there was nothing demonic or supernatural about him, as far as she knows. She just didn't like the fact that he was dating her mother and she had a feeling that there was just something about him that just wasn't right. But she thought he was human right up until he supposedly comes back from the dead.

It's different with Dawn. She - or her Slayer side - can tell that Dawn isn't human, isn't normal and the Slayer reacts to the perceived threat of something supernatural.
 
Doesnt it stress a thousand and one times that Dawn IS human, just with a somewhat interesting past.

Also, "The divination I was performing yielded some Disturbing results regarding you, I Got worked up over it, turns out I misinterpreted it." I think Satisfys the question enough.

As next episode when talking with Giles, she says "She has no idea" Like she hadnt allready thoroughly weirded Dawn out.

I dont think buffy can be blamed really, just That saying "She has no idea" is hardly the truth she could tell something was up.
 
At the point you're talking about, when Buffy went after Dawn, no, they didn't know she was human. It took the monk to explain to Buffy that Dawn was innocent in everything that was going on for Buffy to understand what was happening and that Dawn was actually her sister, just not in the normal way.

But the fact of the matter is, Dawn is - at this point - a fourteen year old child. Telling her that she isn't real, that she's a tool to end the world as they know it, that's just going to mess her up. That's going to hurt Dawn in SO many ways and Buffy knows that, so she wants to protect her from it, to keep her safe until the last possible moment, until she can't anymore.

Telling Dawn that she performed a spell because of her, Dawn's not going to accept that as answer. She's going to push for more, why did Buffy think she needed to perform a spell, what 'disturbing' results did she get, what does she not have to worry about, and the answers to all of those questions are so much more than a fourteen year old child can deal with. Look what happened when Dawn DID find out, she cut herself to pieces and almost got killed by Glory and this was when she found out from Spike. Finding out from the sister she looks up to at the same time she finds out that said sister did a spell because she thought there was something wrong with Dawn would have caused more problems than it fixed.

Also, I don't think Dawn knew or suspected anything at that point. The first time she shows any sort of sign that she thinks something is wrong is when she overhears Buffy, Giles and Joyce talking in the dining room. I don't remember anything before that. She chalks up that night to Buffy's over-protectiveness.
 
fair enough

Have to admit, I dont go for the idea that "The slayer" is some essence, aura, or such that buffy holds within her, rather then a role she holds in the cosmos.

unless that is EXPLICITLY stated somewhere I havent seen.

I think another reason buffy didnt just kill dawn, is A: She didnt want to have to explain things to Joyce

B: She was probaly academicly aware when she didnt turn into a demon or such and attack, that it was possible Dawns own memorys had been altered (probaly quicker to imagine that then that she was a person who was constructed)

Reason Why the Buffy confronts Dawn scene Stood out to me, is when buffy got home, buffy clearly felt HORRIBLE , and like she'd been abusive and cruel not "I drew a false inference, based on unfortunate circumstances, let apolagize and move on"

finally one thing I'm curious on?

Think Buffy while I can understand her outrage when talking with the dieing monk, Im almost entirely certain he could not have granted her demand, if he wanted to "unbuild" the memorys that had been implanted in buffys family

When I heard her say that I was like "I know you didnt see the ritual with his whole order buffy, but hes dieing and hes one person... you do get that right?" or was she so busy feeling violated she didnt think about those things.
 
Oh another follow up question?

I watched the episode again...in full... I'd skipped around previouslly... Buffys behaviour is as you say restrained given what she see's.

Still I think Dawns reaction is just as restrained.

She calls buffy names, and gives her her theory that Buffy was adopted from a shoebox full of baby howler monkeys.

but what im curious on, think Buffys attitude there, was enough to qualify as prosecutable domestic abuse?
 
CordelliasHeart said:
but what im curious on, think Buffys attitude there, was enough to qualify as prosecutable domestic abuse?
Click to expand...

No, I don't think so, because Buffy doesn't actually lay a finger on Dawn. She's doesn't hit her, doesn't throw her into a wall, doesn't do anything but give her a slight shake. What's to prosecute about that?

A minor assault? Quite possibly, but I doubt Buffy would have gotten more than a slap on the wrist, IF Dawn had even gone to the police, which she never would. As she admits herself, Buffy is her hero.

Domestic abuse? Not in a million years.

Domestic abuse implies long term abuse, beatings, psychological abuse, and I actually think it's an insult to people who have been victims of domestic abuse to imply that the scene with Dawn and Buffy is in anyway the same. It's not. It's not even close.

Once Buffy realizes what she's doing, that it's Dawn she's facing, she backs off, leaves instantly to answer the phone and doesn't try to hurt Dawn again once the phone call has ended. She leaves the house, takes herself out of the situation. She makes the decision not to do whatever she was planning to do because she can't make herself fight or hurt Dawn, even while she thinks it's not actually her sister. And she leaves to find answers. Her feelings towards Dawn haven't changed, she still sees and thinks of Dawn as her sister and she just wants answers as to why the spell is showing her that Dawn isn't real. And once she has those answers, she returns to Dawn immediately.
 
Fair enough not familiar with the exactitude of terminology.

She did push dawn into the closet, and shout a bunch of (to dawns perspective) Nonsensical questions.

Im thinking a problem I have with that scene is I never went through seeing the scene not knowing the real truth of the matter

On the phone call Buffy seems somewhat more civil when saying she was going to be out.

Before she knew the real truth.

I'm guessing personally buffy had calmed down and started wondering just WHAT she was waiting for if she was some kind of demon or such.

Another thing about the Scene... isnt it a bit suspcious that its just a from that scene, before Buffy goes to the warehouse?

I'm guessing, this was deliberate on the part of the script author he didnt want to do lenghty plot arc with buffy being suspicious, and hostile towards Dawn, still when I double thought it it seems like an implausible coincidence.

Implausible... I still love the touching reconcilation to death.
 
CordelliasHeart said:
Im thinking a problem I have with that scene is I never went through seeing the scene not knowing the real truth of the matter
Click to expand...

Yes, I think this is the issue. You watched the show out of order, and like I said before, I feel sad for people who watched out of order, because they missed out on a lot of emotional responses to certain scenes and episodes.

In this episode, you saw Buffy 'abusing' her sister and you dislike her for it and I think that colors your view on the rest of this season, if not the rest of the show.

The rest of us, however, saw an impostor in Buffy's house, someone who was an unknown element, who was creepy, magical in nature, and was considered to be a possible danger to Buffy and her family and we were worried for BUFFY. Until that scene with the monk. We learned along with Buffy.
 
Airam
Airam
[No message]
Thing is when I'd only planned on seeing a few episodes... Looked up normal again, mostly because some smallville episode was compared to it... had forgotten Anyas name, by the time I watched "the wish" (only heard her referred to 2 or 3 times, when I saw that episode)

ONly planned on skipping through a few episodes, to get a Framework for watching angel... and understanding fanfiction some of which was very good.

then got suprised how good the show was, I'd avoided it avidly when I was younger seemed to campy, suprised how cool it can be and the TV shows much less campy then the movie.
 
oh one more related question am curious on.

Is their a reason I wouldnt find the scene in the 1st episode of the 2nd season where Angel kills the womans protector, half as disturbing

Though to be honest, I think the demon is closer to being in buffys role there, as he attacks angel probaly believing honestly, that he was threatening her.

Is it just the Demon being a "Stalwart warrior" Vs Dawn being a frightened child, that gives the scene with her more emotional resonance.

or the fact that I DID get taken by surprise by that scene at least finding out it was her bodyguard.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom