Buffy's plan in "Chosen"...

Carrr4288 said:
The one thing I keep on thinking about in this episode is how unnecessary it was to kill spike. Why didn't they just blockade all the exits from the hellmouth and then blow the top off the school so the actual sun would kill all the uber vamps. That amulet was not cool they shouldn't have killed spike he did so many good things in the last few seasons that he really deserved to be redeemed and not killed fo his actions. There are tons of other ways they could have successfully blown up the hellmouth it's just so frustrating they chose the poetic route and had to kill spike.
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I guess I love the poetic route then, lol. 🙂 Of course I was sad to see Spike die (he's one of my favorite characters), but I wouldn't change the story we're given. Considering where his character started out in the season and progressed, his sacrifice and death made perfect sense to me. He became the "champion of the people" because Buffy believed in him. He died saving the world and the woman he loves, so she could "go on living" and fight the good fight. While he did good things prior to this episode, it was nothing compared to his sacrifice here. This was his shining moment (literally, lol) where he truly was redeemed. I never get tired of watching this scene. 🙂
 
StarSlayer said:
I guess I wouldn't say so much his "death," but rather his sacrifice that led to his death, if that makes any sense, lol.
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that was my point, prior to his sacrifice he wasn't a "champion", but he became a champion after closing the hellmouth.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------

StarSlayer agrees: Yep, and saving the world in the process.
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that's also why the amulet didn't work at first, it was meant to be worn by a champion, & Spike didn't get that label until he proved that he was a champion.
 
S
StarSlayer
Yep, and saving the world in the process.
Red Sox Nation said:
that's also why the amulet didn't work at first, it was meant to be worn by a champion, & Spike didn't get that label until he proved that he was a champion.
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I always wonder about the timing with the amulet. I know for the sake of plot, the amulet couldn't work right away or else we wouldn't have that epic battle sequence. But, while they were fighting, the amulet started to get hot. Spike noticed and he seemed to burn himself a little. And then, a few minutes later, the amulet activates in full effect. Angel said the amulet has a "purifying power" and gives strength to the right person who wears it. So, I sometimes think the amulet started working from the moment Spike started to wear it. It just had to take a while for it to come into full effect because of the purifying or cleansing, as Angel put it.
 
StarSlayer said:
I always wonder about the timing with the amulet. I know for the sake of plot, the amulet couldn't work right away or else we wouldn't have that epic battle sequence. But, while they were fighting, the amulet started to get hot. Spike noticed and he seemed to burn himself a little. And then, a few minutes later, the amulet activates in full effect. Angel said the amulet has a "purifying power" and gives strength to the right person who wears it. So, I sometimes think the amulet started working from the moment Spike started to wear it. It just had to take a while for it to come into full effect because of the purifying or cleansing, as Angel put it.
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I kinda thought it didn't work right away because Spike wasn't a champion just yet, he was still Buffy's lapdog, but when he started fighting The Ubervamps to save the world, he became a champion & then the amulet started doing its mojo.
 
Red Sox Nation said:
I kinda thought it didn't work right away because Spike wasn't a champion just yet, he was still Buffy's lapdog, but when he started fighting The Ubervamps to save the world, he became a champion & then the amulet started doing its mojo.
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First, he wasn't her lapdog. 😉 I won't go there. Second, I agree that I think he became a champion when the amulet fully started to work. At the same time, I think it was building-up to it, maybe getting to his soul sort of speak since Spike really felt his soul the moment the amulet fully activated. It wasn't just the fighting of the ubervamps that led to him becoming a champion IMO.
 
StarSlayer said:
First, he wasn't her lapdog. 😉 I won't go there. Second, I agree that I think he became a champion when the amulet fully started to work. At the same time, I think it was building-up to it, maybe getting to his soul sort of speak since Spike really felt his soul the moment the amulet fully activated. It wasn't just the fighting of the ubervamps that led to him becoming a champion IMO.
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maybe lapdog was too strong of a word, but he certainly wasn't a champion until he fought the Uberz because he wanted to fight them, not for Buffy but for the world, a champion doesn't fight evil for personal achievements but for the good of the world, he became that when he was fighting the Ubervamps. & he expanded on that on Ats S5 when he became the co-champion with Angel, he became himself midway through Ats S5 instead of wanting to be Angel, or wanting to impress him, he became a true champion & true person, & by the end of the season, Angel started looking as him as an equal instead of an annoyance & accepted him as a champion.
 
The more I read all this the more I'm hating the final episode and the way it panned out. Spike was a true champion and that was not clear until he made his internal decision to die for everyone. He had to have known deep inside that when the amulet started heating up that he was going to have to die thats why he stood back and let it happen. He knew that in order to save the girls and the world he would die and that truly made him a champion.

And doesn't buffy try to get him to come with at first and he is like no, I have to do this, I want to do this.
 
Red Sox Nation said:
maybe lapdog was too strong of a word, but he certainly wasn't a champion until he fought the Uberz because he wanted to fight them, not for Buffy but for the world, a champion doesn't fight evil for personal achievements but for the good of the world, he became that when he was fighting the Ubervamps.
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Like I said, I agree he didn't really become a champion until the amulet fully kicked into gear, but I think there were others going on too.

& he expanded on that on Ats S5 when he became the co-champion with Angel, he became himself midway through Ats S5 instead of wanting to be Angel, or wanting to impress him, he became a true champion & true person, & by the end of the season, Angel started looking as him as an equal instead of an annoyance & accepted him as a champion.
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Completely agree.

Carrr4288 said:
The more I read all this the more I'm hating the final episode and the way it panned out. Spike was a true champion and that was not clear until he made his internal decision to die for everyone. He had to have known deep inside that when the amulet started heating up that he was going to have to die thats why he stood back and let it happen. He knew that in order to save the girls and the world he would die and that truly made him a champion.
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I think it was made clear that Spike was a champion (or considered one) when Buffy handed him the amulet. He then truly became the champion that Buffy saw when he died saving her and the world.

And doesn't buffy try to get him to come with at first and he is like no, I have to do this, I want to do this.
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Yes, Buffy thought Spike did enough and could leave with her, but Spike had to finish the job. He wanted to close the hellmouth for good. I think he also wanted to become the champion Buffy saw in him.
 
we can at least all agree that we got one more good thing out of Spike's death, & that is more of Spike in Ats S5, including the most hilarious scenes ever coming from Spike & Angel's interactions, the scenes that come to mind are when Spike stabbed Angel to kill a bug & when they were screaming for 40 minutes about Atronauts vs Cavemen, the latter is probably the funniest scene both shows have ever produced.
 
S
StarSlayer
And Spike and Puppet Angel fighting, and TGIQ...I love their banters in s5!
StarSlayer agrees: And Spike and Puppet Angel fighting, and TGIQ...I love their banters in s5!
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TGIQ is probably the most underrated episode on the show, its the one episode that I go to every time I want a laugh, after its over I always feel sad, because I know my rewatch is about to end, & all the Angel-Spike funny stuff is over, one season wasn't enough.
 
My main problem with the Ubervamps in this episode was how weak they seemed. Joss made the one that Buffy originally fought either way too strong or these ones way too weak. It took Buffy getting her butt handed to her multiple times before she was able to kill it and these ones seemed to go down very easily by people that didn't even have Slayer power (those upstairs fighting some of them).

Buffy's plan would not have worked and she had no idea what the amulet did. Her vision of how many Ubervamps there were in the Hellmouth showed thousands upon thousands and she only had a few dozen actual fighters, once the spell was activated by Willow. Considering her knowledge of how hard it was for her to beat just ONE Ubervamp, how could she have ever thought her ragtag bunch would be able to handle the amount she was shown? Yes she did beat 3 easily with the Scythe, but there is only one Scythe and did she think she could beat them all by herself using it?

The plan was a bad one and if it wasn't for the amulet, they would have lost and everyone would have died. It was pure luck that saved the day and allowed as many to leave as did. Without any knowledge of how to power the amulet or what its actual purpose was, she was walking in completely blind with a confidence that bordered on arrogance.
 
Tina3 said:
My main problem with the Ubervamps in this episode was how weak they seemed. Joss made the one that Buffy originally fought either way too strong or these ones way too weak. It took Buffy getting her butt handed to her multiple times before she was able to kill it and these ones seemed to go down very easily by people that didn't even have Slayer power (those upstairs fighting some of them).

Buffy's plan would not have worked and she had no idea what the amulet did. Her vision of how many Ubervamps there were in the Hellmouth showed thousands upon thousands and she only had a few dozen actual fighters, once the spell was activated by Willow. Considering her knowledge of how hard it was for her to beat just ONE Ubervamp, how could she have ever thought her ragtag bunch would be able to handle the amount she was shown? Yes she did beat 3 easily with the Scythe, but there is only one Scythe and did she think she could beat them all by herself using it?

The plan was a bad one and if it wasn't for the amulet, they would have lost and everyone would have died. It was pure luck that saved the day and allowed as many to leave as did. Without any knowledge of how to power the amulet or what its actual purpose was, she was walking in completely blind with a confidence that bordered on arrogance.
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about the Ubervamps strength, Joss Whedon pretty much admitted that it was poor writing, he just wanted to make a point. & the writers used the amulet to bail Buffy out of a poor plan & make her plan look good.
 
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