Buffyverse, good guys that murder

Were any murders wrong?(multiply choice)

  • Giles - Ben

    Votes: 5 11.4%

  • Wes - Knox

    Votes: 9 20.5%

  • Angel - Drogyn

    Votes: 26 59.1%

  • Angel - Swat guy

    Votes: 3 6.8%

  • Lorne - Lindsey

    Votes: 21 47.7%

  • Gunn - Professer

    Votes: 7 15.9%

  • Willow - Warren

    Votes: 13 29.5%

  • Other

    Votes: 3 6.8%
  • Total voters
    44
Giles killing Ben was Giles being a true hero.

Wes killing Knox was pure vengeance, but who would hold it against him?

Angel had to kill Drogyn. Drogyn was already dead because regardless of what Angel did, Drogyn had maybe 5 minutes of life left.

Angel killing the SWAT guy was confusing. We're to assume that the SWAT guy was human, so Angel could have just as easily crippled the guy or had him locked up. I still wouldn't say wrong though, because the guy aimed to kill dozens of innocent kids.

Lorne killing Lindsey, from my POV is was surprising and sad since Lindsey was a fan-fave, but the implication is that Lorne was asked to do it by Angel, and also saw Lindsey doing some bad things when he read his future.

Gunn killing the Professor wasn't really bad at all. Like with Drogyn, the professor was doomed already, and Gunn just put the blood on his own hands.

Willow's reasons for killing Warren were wrong, but he was an evil and dangerous murderer. Sad thing is, it kind of screwed the Scoobies down the road since after Amy resurrected him, he's become an even bigger threat...
 
They all deserved death IMO. In the case of the "other" option there is Faith...in which case it's a whole other story and I have to agree with BIW.
 
Wes had every right to kill Knox. Knox was an idiot and one of the people responsible for killing Fred, the love of Wes's dream. Knox could care less about Fred, her life or her soul. Knox wanted to Fred/Wes to suffer. So yeah, Knox got what he deserved.
 
BillyIdolWannaB said:
Do you think any of the murders committed by the good guys were moraly wrong and annoyed you?
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All the murders were wrong, you cannot justify murder by vengeance, eye for an eye, possible future sins.

I only want to add that I held Angel responsible for Linsday death and that Buffy stabbing Faith was the worst moment of her life.
 
^Really? What if Buffy didn't stab Faith and she ended up being stabbed or killed herself! I dont blame Buffy. Faith would've done it to her if she had a chance.
 
Buffy could beaten up Faith, shackle her, strip her of her slayer powers like Giles did to Buffy in Helpless, then try for her recovery. Faith could be stopped with the means available to S3. Also, there could have been the possibility to trade her to the Counsel of Watchers in exchange for Angel's cure. Buffy went with premeditation, in pure vengeance, to kill Faith and feed her to Angel. In the moment she stabbed her she realized her mistake, the expression on Sarah face is ...(why didn't she get an Emmy?)

In Sanctuary, Buffy changes her mind about Faith, she is now contempt with her going to prison.

There is no justified murder, humans must obey to human laws, it's important to bring the villains to be judged and punished according to the law.
 
Good plan in theory. But Faiths a really good fighter, i don't know if Buffy could beat up Faith and tie her up just like that, they're too even at fighting, Faith wouldn't have allowed it.
Also don't see the Council doing any deals involving Angel, especially with the way Buffy quit.
And i dunno if Buffys expression said 'mistake', i thought she was just sad she had to take it that far.

---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 PM ----------

I was kinda annoyed with Faith going to jail. Its pointless and no good can come from it, plus she's actually sorry for what she did. But Faith, especially with her slayer powers could have saved alot of lives if she wasn't rotting away in jail.
 
The Lorne - Lindsey (I hated that. Lindsey was helping them and if he was going to get killed, I think he was right, it needed to be Angel. It should have been Angel. So yeah, hated that one) and Angel - Drogyn (that was just...sad).
 
So Angel killing Drogyn for the win

Angel had to kill Drogyn. Drogyn was already dead because regardless of what Angel did, Drogyn had maybe 5 minutes of life left.
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If Angel didn't start his stand out against the Black Thorn, Drogyn wouldn't left the Deeper Well. Angel's fault in here is that he consciously condemned to death an innocent person, unknown to him at the time, only to be accepted in the BT.
 
Strictly morally speaking, murder is always wrong.

No matter how useful it is for humanity, no matter how much somebody had it coming, morally it´s still wrong.
 
G
GrrArghx
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Out of the options up there, the one that surprised me the most was Lorne killing Lindsey. I was spoiled on that one, so I already knew it was coming, but it still shocked the hell out of me to see Lorne pull out that gun and shoot him the way he did. It left a bad taste in my mouth. 🙁
 
Giles - Ben

I'm always cautious when dealing with death for the greater good, although I can understand why Giles did it. I don't think he took any pleasure in it and he believed he was doing the right thing. This may seem superfluous to say but it's relevent for this discussion as I will talk about in due time.

Wes-Knox

This bothers me because of Wes' intention. He wasn't doing it for the greater good and killing humans (or shooting them in the knee if they don't follow his orders) was not contributing to his sanity. Killing a demon because it poses a threat is not the same as killing a sentient being (demon or not) to try and make yourself feel better. It's actually not about the person being killed but the person doing the killing. More on this particular subject when we come to Willow and Warren.

Angel - Drogyn

Problematic because in this case killing for the greater good meant killing Drogyn in order for his plan to work. A plan that was symbolic in its nature anyway. Also why did Angel assume that the COTBT would kill him (Angel) anyway? Isn't he the prophecy poster boy? Even if Angel had have been killed, wouldn't that death be symbolic in itself? Although Angel can't be held responsible for the Circle bringing Drogyn in, he did have a choice on whether he is killed or not.

Angel - Swat guy

Well it depends on why Angel did this. If the Swat Guy's conviction is that strong then he's more dangerous than most of the opportunistic employees at W&H. However with humans it's always more unpredictable than with some demons. It's possible that he feared the swat guy would kill again. If it was a preventive measure it's possible that while it's not guaranteed that he wont achieve redemption, I guess 'real world eithics' may not allow us to be so idealistic about our morals. Still Angel needs to manage the line morality a little better. Again not entirely thrilled with this one.

Lorne - Lindsey

I hold Angel and Lorne responsible for this one. My problem with this, is that we don't even know exactly what Lorne read in Lindsay. We cannot judge whether they did the right thing or not. Even if Lindsay was possibly going to do something harmful... if this action is fixed then it cannot be prevented anyway and if it can be prevented it was never 'going to happen' anyway. Linday despite his actions wasn't proven to be a sociopath in the same way that for example Ryan Anderson was or Corbin Fries. Don't agree with this at all. Tactically speaking however, it made sense because Lindsay would have expected any other kind of attack. Lindsay didn't trust Angel but thought he would have at least played him fair until the fight.

Gunn - Professer

I look at Fred as a part of this as Gunn would not have done anything had she not opened the portal. What Gunn needs to realise is that you cannot save someone from their intentions.

Going to the action itself. Their mission is not about hunting down the guilty but helping the helpless. This is a general point about people killing people who piss them off. Also for people like Fred and Gunn, the actions will haunt them and once you act, you can never take it back.

Willow - Warren

This is pretty much as the above. I'm not going to go into whether Warren deserves to die because for me that's not the point. Willow was again using magic to control the world around her and consuming herself into darkness in the process. I don't believe Warren should have died at the expense of Willow, she nearly lost her soul (so to speak) down that road.
 
U
ubi4soft
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ubi4soft said:
So Angel killing Drogyn for the win


If Angel didn't start his stand out against the Black Thorn, Drogyn wouldn't left the Deeper Well. Angel's fault in here is that he consciously condemned to death an innocent person, unknown to him at the time, only to be accepted in the BT.
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Angel overestimated Drogyn's abilities and Spike overestimated Illyria's, that's what got Drogyn killed...
 
Lyri said:
I think I have to go for Lindsey. Obviously, lol.

For once, he was actually innocent. He was fighting on the right side, helping Angel, being the good guy for once. And Angel still wanted him dead because of something he might do. There's still no proof that whatever Lorne sees automatically comes true, it's like everything, every choice we make chances our future. Who knows what choicing to help Angel did to Lindsey's future? And for Angel to ask Lorne to be the one to actually kill Angel was low.

I always imagined Angel and Lindsey having this massive, epic fight to the death, the best guy left standing. I wouldn't have exactly been upset if that guy had been Lindsey, lol.
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Agreed, Lyri. Asking Lorne to kill Lindsey was one of Angel's lowest moments, IMO. Making his non-violent friend do his dirty work for him? Very low, indeed.

This reminds me of how in SPN, Sam begs Dean to kill him because he's afraid of what he might become. So stupid. There is such a thing as changing one's fate. Lindsey, I believe, was trying to change. The thing that bothered me the most about Lindsey's death was how unfair it was. Lindsey wasn't given a clue, or even a chance to defend himself. He was, for lack of a better term, tricked. Many fans seem to think that Angel is justified in all that he does because he is the hero, but I disagree. I find Lindsey's death at the hands of Lorne very disturbing.

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------

Giles - Ben

I'm always cautious when dealing with death for the greater good, although I can understand why Giles did it. I don't think he took any pleasure in it and he believed he was doing the right thing. This may seem superfluous to say but it's relevent for this discussion as I will talk about in due time.
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Glad you brought this up, Kana. I too have always thought what Giles did in this scene is both incredibly moving and incredibly disturbing at the same time. He killed Ben because he knew Buffy couldn't do it. This scene is one of Giles' best I think, and his line about Buffy ("She's a hero, you see. She's not like us") is one of the best lines of dialogue in the whole series I believe, and really illustrates what Buffy and the show is about. That said, regardless of why Giles did it (I agree it was for the "right" reason and for a good intention) it shows what Giles is capable of; killing someone in cold blood with his own hands. Not many people are capable of that. Interpret that how you like.

---------- Post added at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 AM ----------
 
Kean
Kean
Sam and Dean are so not the posterboys of changing one's fate. Seriously.
ubi4soft said:
I don't understand, please explain. Also, what's Illyria got to do with Angel's trials for the Black Thorn?
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Angel set Drogyn up thinking Drogyn could "handle himself," by surviving and not getting captured. Angel was wrong.

Spike thought Illyria was sufficient "muscle" to guard the injured Drogyn. Spike was wrong.

If the two hadn't overestimated the other two, Drogyn would have survived.
 
Buffyverse Fan said:
Angel set Drogyn up thinking Drogyn could "handle himself," by surviving and not getting captured. Angel was wrong.

Spike thought Illyria was sufficient "muscle" to guard the injured Drogyn. Spike was wrong.

If the two hadn't overestimated the other two, Drogyn would have survived.
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If Angel didn't set Drogyn up Drogyn would have survived. Angel was wrong thinking that he will be able to infiltrate the Black Thorn without sacrifices or worst, a cold blooded criminal, knowing there will be innocents people caught in the middle. That is the arrogance of the big picture, of the greater good. This time was Drogyn, who will be next time? How many innocents have to suffer or to die for Angel to be the champion of champions?
 
ubi4soft said:
If Angel didn't set Drogyn up Drogyn would have survived. Angel was wrong thinking that he will be able to infiltrate the Black Thorn without sacrifices or worst, a cold blooded criminal, knowing there will be innocents people caught in the middle. That is the arrogance of the big picture, of the greater good. This time was Drogyn, who will be next time? How many innocents have to suffer or to die for Angel to be the champion of champions?
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Have you read After the Fall?
 
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