Buffyverse, good guys that murder

[ubi4soft]

Yes, but not when it started (came late in the fandom and comics).

The whole LA is sent to literal Hell due to Angel stand out against Senior Partners. A lot of innocents tortured and killed. Wolfram&Hart punishes Angel also by torturing his friends. Connor is killed. The Shanshu thing is revealed to be about Angel fighting for the bad guys in The Apocalypse, so finally Angel understands that he is too important for the bad guys and he allows himself to be killed knowing that a resurrection will follow.

Than it came the reset button which brings LA back before the NFA battle with W&H destroyed and everybody remembering their experience in hell. Although during Hell-A time Angel felt guilty for sending them there, after the reset he apparently considers that he had redeemed himself.

So it took millions of innocents, the rest of his friends and the death of his son for Angel to go back at the beginning, at helping the helpless. W&H had corrupted him with the Connor mind wipe spell and led him into thinking that he could fight from the inside of the bad guys. As I see it Angel was corrupted into thinking that in his war casualties are just casual (the infiltration in the Black Thorn and condemning to death of innocents people -Drogyn- for that to happen)

In the poll I've marked the entire list, including Other - Buffy hunting down Faith to feed her to Angel - but while I could sympathize with some of the rest I'm against the big picture thinking because, how Buffy said, you cannot fight evil with evil (or carefully planned before evil). And in no way made excuse for that.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Maybe Drogyn, even though he was a little bit of a dick. I get that Angel had to do it or they would have killed both of them but that was just...yeeesh.

Willow killing Warren was the most satisfying moment of season 6 for me. Does that make me a sadist?

I'm not sure how Giles killing Ben could be considered wrong at all.

Knox destroyed Fred's soul. I would've done the same. How exactly can you go to the authorities with something like that?

Lorne killing Lindsey...I'm not sure what my thoughts on that are still. It was just a weird scene.

Gunn killing the professor...Again, how can you go to the authorities with something like what he's done? And if they let him go he would have done it again. He tried to do it again to Fred!

Angel and the SWAT guy...I haven't got an opinion on that really.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I've only seen Angel 1.5 times and I don't know who these characters all are. But I thought Angel having Lorne kill Lindsey was wrong. Lindsey was conflicted, not evil. And he was fighting with them when lorne took him out. And he's just human, not dangerous. I thought killing Ben was wrong too, but I also don't know what choice Giles had. Glory was truly dangerous and as long as Ben was there, she could come back. The professor and Warren, I can't bring myself to cry over. They were both sociopaths and maybe it was wrong to kill them, strictly speaking, but I'm glad they did it.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I thought killing Ben was wrong too, but I also don't know what choice Giles had. Glory was truly dangerous and as long as Ben was there, she could come back. The professor and Warren, I can't bring myself to cry over. They were both sociopaths and maybe it was wrong to kill them, strictly speaking, but I'm glad they did it.

He really didn't have a choice. What were people expecting him to do? Let Glory re-emerge? She couldn't do her ritual but she still was a threat.

About Warren, I was thinking about it a little while ago and really, that's the only person on the list they could have turned in to the legal system. Still, I was glad she did it.

 

[crazysoulless]

I think that Giles did have a choice. Since it was too late for Ben to turn back into Glory and stop Buffy from getting to Dawn the ritual wasn't going to happen since it had a time window (of course Doc helped Glory with that). There were other ways they could have dealt with Glory. Buffy could have kept beating Glory whenever she reemerged until the gang found or created a spell to separate Glory and Ben. I saw what Giles did as similiar to what Ruby wanted to do on S3 of Supernatural. They were trapped in a police station with demon posessed humans trying to get in. Ruby said that she knew a spell that would kill the demons but it required butchering a virgin. They opted not to do that and took their chances with the invasion even though it meant some of them might die because they felt they would be becoming like the Bad Guys if they started killing innocents to save themselves.

I was sickened by what Willow did. She hunted Warren and slowly tortured him to death while he cried in fear and begged for his life. She sewed his mouth shut, slowly put a bullet in him so that he would really feel it, and flayed him alive. Warren killing Katrina was "accidentally on purpose". He hit her with a wine bottle to knock her out and didn't realize he had killed her until Jonathon told him. While he purposely hurt her he didn't mean to kill her. Warren didn't mean to kill or even to shoot Tara. She was hit by a stray bullet. He didn't even know that he had killed her until Rack told him. Yes, he tried to kill Buffy but Buffy didn't want him dead *just as Tara wouldn't have* in his warped mind he thought it was justified since he was trying to be the SuperVillain and Buffy was the Superhero. And the day after Willow killed Warren, she tried to kill Buffy.

I thought Angel was wrong to kill the Swat guy. Yes, the man's ideals were very wrong but he did not try to kill those children because he wanted to kill a bunch of children. It was a classic soldier strategy. That little boy had a ticking virus in his body and if it went off MILLIONS of people would have died. He was taking the fate of the entire city out of the hands of the courts *if Gunn could win the case* and took away the possibility of the virus detonating at all.

I hated Angel having Lorne murder Lindsey. It was just because he didn't like him. Angel didn't want Buffy to so much as lecture Faith after Faith tortured and murdered innocent people, joined up with an evil demon to butcher thousands more, and sexually violated Buffy but he was okay with Lindsey being killed. And he showed no remorse afterwards when he informed Lindsey's girlfriend Eve.

I felt sorry for Gunn in S4. Seidel would have been killed by Fred or Wesley had Gunn not done it. He was stopping Fred from having blood on her hands. And yet she still felt the guilt and blamed him.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I think that Giles did have a choice. Since it was too late for Ben to turn back into Glory and stop Buffy from getting to Dawn the ritual wasn't going to happen since it had a time window (of course Doc helped Glory with that). There were other ways they could have dealt with Glory. Buffy could have kept beating Glory whenever she reemerged until the gang found or created a spell to separate Glory and Ben. I saw what Giles did as similiar to what Ruby wanted to do on S3 of Supernatural. They were trapped in a police station with demon posessed humans trying to get in. Ruby said that she knew a spell that would kill the demons but it required butchering a virgin. They opted not to do that and took their chances with the invasion even though it meant some of them might die because they felt they would be becoming like the Bad Guys if they started killing innocents to save themselves.

I haven't watched Supernatural yet so I don't know your reference.

Well if Buffy hadn't died your scenario sounds less...brutal for Ben. But I wonder how Buffy would have felt if she knew about his "I'm sorry, I got no choice. It's you or me." stance considering that she wanted to kill anyone who would try to get to Dawn once the ritual started?

I was sickened by what Willow did. She hunted Warren and slowly tortured him to death while he cried in fear and begged for his life. She sewed his mouth shut, slowly put a bullet in him so that he would really feel it, and flayed him alive.

I do understand why she should not have done it but the sadist and annoyed viewer in me was relieved. Is that bad? [shifty eyes]

I hated Angel having Lorne murder Lindsey. It was just because he didn't like him. Angel didn't want Buffy to so much as lecture Faith after Faith tortured and murdered innocent people, joined up with an evil demon to butcher thousands more, and sexually violated Buffy but he was okay with Lindsey being killed. And he showed no remorse afterwards when he informed Lindsey's girlfriend Eve.

The more I thought about that scene the more I ended up thinking, "Wow, Angel's a dick." I'd certainly questioned things he'd done during the series but holy crap. 🙁 Of course Lorne ended up doing it because he's loyal and Angel knew that. I hated it too, but I don't think we were exactly supposed to stand up and cheer. =\

 

[crazysoulless]

I put what Wesley did to Knox on the same level as Holtz's emotions. He thought of Fred as his soulmate and after she died he spent the rest of his short life severely depressed. He knew it was wrong but didn't care anymore. He was defeated.

I remember I used to have a huge problem with Angel chopping off Lindsey's hand (To Shanshu in LA) until I remembered that Buffy once chopped off a human's arm (Gwendoly Post in Revelations). Though I still think what he did was worse since he is supposed to be on a mission of redemption for having harmed humans, he could have used his vampire speed to stop Lindsey while the Glove Gwendolyn wore couldn't be taken off once it was on so there wasn't another option (especially when she would try to shoot you with lightning bolts if you tried something).

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I put what Wesley did to Knox on the same level as Holtz's emotions. He thought of Fred as his soulmate and after she died he spent the rest of his short life severely depressed. He knew it was wrong but didn't care anymore. He was defeated.

Did he really know it was wrong? I'm not sure he did but maybe I'm not remembering so well. He felt bad about stabbing Gunn but I think that's as far as it went.

I remember I used to have a huge problem with Angel chopping off Lindsey's hand (To Shanshu in LA) until I remembered that Buffy once chopped off a human's arm (Gwendoly Post in Revelations). Though I still think what he did was worse since he is supposed to be on a mission of redemption for having harmed humans, he could have used his vampire speed to stop Lindsey while the Glove Gwendolyn wore couldn't be taken off once it was on so there wasn't another option (especially when she would try to shoot you with lightning bolts if you tried something).

It was more dramatic the way it played out plus it gave Lindsey a reason to be against Angel other than Wolfram and Hart telling him so.

 

[ElmoHasAGun]

I always feel slightly sick when any good guy from the Buffyverse kills a person, even more so if they were innocent, but that is one of the most amazing things about Buffy. That the good guys are human too, and alot of them have killed, driven by human motives. For vengeance or the greater good and "the bigger picture". I'm not saying murder is right in any case but sometimes it is needed (or someone is just really pissed)

 

[Tome]

Why is the poll closed?!! For me it's the murder of Wesley by the writers in the last episode. WAY TO GO GOOD GUYS!!!! Killing off a character for no reason at all...

:cry3:

Seriously, for me the two worst murders in either show were Lorne/Angel killing Lindsey and Faith murdering that volcanologist in season 3. I'm surprised you didn't put that in the choices, it was VERY wrong and much more disturbing.

Giles killing Ben? He had to, and after Ben made his choice and sided with Glory, I didn't feel bad for him(more for Giles having to kill a human). Wes killing Knox, totally understandable, Knox was a fanatic that didn't care about who had to die to bring forth his god to life. Angel and Drogyn, I just didn't feel anything about that... Angel ISN'T an angel, he's not this saint hero... He did something he had to for his plan to work, and like peoples have said previously, Drogyn was gonna die anyway. Angel + Swat Guy, huh? He was trying to kill Angel, and clearly showed he was gonna be a pain in the ass for what Angel was trying to do with W&H. Gunn killing that professor, he killed him so he didn't have to suffer when he'd be thrown down the portal, there was no alternative at that point, it was either doing that or 'losing' Fred, he choosed. And finally Warren was probably the third most disturbing murder for me, and he probably should have just been sent to prison, he was a very confused guy. Sadly you don't piss off our little Willow 🙂

 

[Bungle Jerry]

Wesley killing Knox always bugs me, because its essentially just a cheap joke - Angel makes his pitch about saving humans at any cost, something that the writers once actually did believe, just to have Wes shoot Knox - in completely cold blood, not in the heat of passion but just out of the blue - to make a silly joke. Wes becomes a brilliantly complex 'dark' character by S5, but to take him down the road to remorseless murder...

What bugs me about Buffyverse murder is how, in "Ted", in "Consequences", in "Dead Things"... again and again we have this incredibly moralistic take on Buffy's power over life and death - in "Dead Things", she's actually just about to deny the world a Vampire Slayer because she feels so morally upset about what she thinks she did to Katrina - while in other circumstances, murder is a-ok. At least with Gunn and the Professor, and with Willow and Warren, we got to see them dealing with the moral repercussions of their choices. Wesley? Nothing.

Oh, and of course, technically speaking, Willow didn't kill Warren. Though she did intend to. And she did kill Rack.


You could also make a point to add Buffy and Billy Ford to this list. Though he's terminally ill, she does 'leave him to die' at Spike's hand, and that's almost a form of murder too.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Why is the poll closed?!! For me it's the murder of Wesley by the writers in the last episode. WAY TO GO GOOD GUYS!!!! Killing off a character for no reason at all...

:cry3:

Joss gave Alexis the final call, prefaced with his guarantee that Wesley would return if Angel continued (which he did).

Seriously, for me the two worst murders in either show were Lorne/Angel killing Lindsey and Faith murdering that volcanologist in season 3. I'm surprised you didn't put that in the choices, it was VERY wrong and much more disturbing.

Probably figures Faith was a villain at that point.

Drogyn was gonna die anyway.

I have to agree, Drogyn was dead as soon as Hamilton had him.

And finally Warren was probably the third most disturbing murder for me, and he probably should have just been sent to prison, he was a very confused guy. Sadly you don't piss off our little Willow 🙂

Warren deserved to die, I believe he was the most evil character in the Buffyverse. He was the only one with a soul, but no conscience.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Wesley? Nothing.

Well he did end up getting murdered in the end.

 

[Marisa]

The only ones I feel bad for are Lindsey and Drogyn.

Knox I am saying him because his was a big storyline to me besides Warren got what was coming to him. He can say he worshiped Illyria or whatever but he killed Fred. I can't say that I blame Wesley for what he did.

Warren was a horrible person he did so many things that it was hard to sympathize with him at all that goes for the professor as well what he did to Fred was wrong and no telling if he would have kept going.

Now Lindsey I understand that was Lorne's order but I felt it was wrong. I felt like Lindsey if anyone is going to kill him it should be Angel.

Drogyn had to die for a bigger purpose so I can deal with it but it still does upset me when watching it.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

The Pee-Pee demon, right? Well, Angel doesn't say he dies, only that he makes his blood poisonous for Archduke Sebassis

They seem to be of the same species, so the poison probably worked the same for both. Also, the slave lies there, still, with something that looks like blood coming out of his mouth. It's pretty obvious the writers wanted us to think the slave was dead too, probably to show the audience that Sebassis was definitey doomed.

Look Screencap Paradise: Click image to close this window

There's nothing that imples that the slave is alive, or that Angel gives a damn.

 

[Bungle Jerry]

I'm a bit confused by how Angel is able to kill Drogyn - and Hamilton, too. What exactly does 'immortal' mean if they can be killed just like humans?

 

[crazysoulless]

Maybe it is "immortal" as in they won't die of old age and their bodies are less likely to get diseases.

The reason in Ted, Consequences, Dead things, & Villains that the subject of murder is so moralistic is that it is Buffy. The other characters just don't have her moral code.

I still feel like Willow felt more remorse for having tortured her friends, tried to kill them, and tried to start an apocalypse than she was for torturing, mutilating, and murdering Warren.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I'm a bit confused by how Angel is able to kill Drogyn - and Hamilton, too. What exactly does 'immortal' mean if they can be killed just like humans?

Immortal doesn't necessarily mean indestructible.

 

[Vengeance]

Giles killing Ben.. well I don't feel too bad about this one because Ben isn't exactly an "innocent" when you consider he was willing to kill Dawn to save his own ass.
Wes killing Knox, Knox was pretty much pure evil so this one doesn't bug me either.
Angel killing Drogyn, it bugs me a little but it was necessary.
Angel killing Swat guy.. I don't even remember what episode this is in.
Lorne killing Lindsay.. and now we finally get the one that's really irritating. Lindsay had shown signs that he could be a good person, but because of what he may or may not do in the future you're going to condemn him to death? Faith had done just as much evil but she gets a free pass because she's a pretty girl? *shakes head*
Gunn killing Professor.. doesn't bug me at all.
Willow killing Warren.. this is another bad one considering he could've been dealt with by the human law enforcement, and the way she slowly tortured him before she killed him. She does at least seem to feel bad about it later.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Lorne killing Lindsay.. and now we finally get the one that's really irritating. Lindsay had shown signs that he could be a good person, but because of what he may or may not do in the future you're going to condemn him to death? Faith had done just as much evil but she gets a free pass because she's a pretty girl? *shakes head*

I really don't think so