Buffyverse, good guys that murder

[crazysoulless]

Faith was able to actually get a knife and stab an innocent man to death herself, to actually torture someone (Wesley) nearly to death. That takes more evil in you in my opinion than working for evil as a lawyer. I think Lindsey would've gotten sick to his stomach if he was forced to brutally kill humans with his own hands. He did paperwork and chants and manipulation but she actively brutalized people.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

n/m delete please...........

 

[faeriegrrl27]

I'd say Lorne killing Lindsay. I mean, I can see the perspective and I guess it's not the death that gets me so much as the way it was done. Lindsay was a good bad guy and had a history with Angel. I think they could have done something interesting with his death, if they had to kill him, and this was just... shaming. And him dying and saying how it should have been Angel who killed him... he should have at least had a noble death.

 

[Icarium]

Faith was able to actually get a knife and stab an innocent man to death herself, to actually torture someone (Wesley) nearly to death. That takes more evil in you in my opinion than working for evil as a lawyer.

I hate to involve Godwin's law but I would have to this time - Hitler didn't kill anyone with his own hands either, unless we count his participation in World War One. Does that make him a better person than Faith then? Now, I personally dislike Faith and her insta-redemption but Lindsey is just as problematic morality-wise, if not more. He spread evil longer than Faith did.

That said, his death was one of the false notes in NFA, IMO. Sort of "let's shock them, who cares if it makes sense" scene.

The reason in Ted, Consequences, Dead things, & Villains that the subject of murder is so moralistic is that it is Buffy. The other characters just don't have her moral code.

The moral code that allowed her to threaten them and basically order to them to lie down and die so Dawn would live for a few more minutes? They got lucky not to have such a code, IMO. And Ted is a terrible example, IMO, as Buffy used ridiculously excessive force against Ted and the only reason she didn't end up killing him was because the guy just happened to be a robot. Sure, she felt bad afterwards but that's not nearly good enough, IMO.

 

[crazysoulless]

I thought it was obvious that Buffy's feelings against Ted were part not liking him because he physically threatened her and turned her mother into a Stepford wife and part "My Slayer spidey sense is tingling around this guy". She felt uncomfortable around Kathy and she turned out to be a demon, she didn't fully trust Dawn until she found out she was The Key (a part of her felt that something wasn't right, "I know it's always been this way but for some reason it's really getting to me lately").

I don't think she would have killed her friends. Did you see the look on her face when she was on that tower with Dawn? It was similiar to when she killed Angel to stop the Becoming #2 apocalypse. She knew she was going to have to let Dawn die. Buffy may have said she would hurt whoever tried to kill Dawn but when the ritual actually started she was already feeling differently. I think that if she hadn't realized that she could take Dawn's place by killing herself she would have let Dawn die.

 

[Icarium]

I thought it was obvious that Buffy's feelings against Ted were part not liking him because he physically threatened her and turned her mother into a Stepford wife and part "My Slayer spidey sense is tingling around this guy". She felt uncomfortable around Kathy and she turned out to be a demon, she didn't fully trust Dawn until she found out she was The Key (a part of her felt that something wasn't right, "I know it's always been this way but for some reason it's really getting to me lately").

Buffy doesn't have a reliable Spidey sense. She didn't know Angel had lost his soul in Innocence until it became clear to everyone. She didn't know Anya was a vengeance demon again in Entropy. She didn't detect anything fishy about Ben and even wanted to go on a date with him. She didn't know the Mayor was evil until after finch's death. She didn't know Professor Walsh was evil either, etc. She had plenty of reasons to dislike Ted, so she got pissed and beat him up, instead of just defending herself. In other episodes like Go, Fish or Halloween, we see that she can netralise strong men in a matter of seconds and without harming them much. With Ted she wanted to hurt him. Either that or the director really screwed up when shooting that scene, if the intent was merely to show Buffy defending herself.

 

[crazysoulless]

Professor Walsh was human.

Anya spent over a thousand years as a demon and still acted like Anyanka (bragging about her evil deeds). There wasn't much difference when she got demonized again.

She was too fragile in Innocence. That episode was the first several days after she lost her virginity to Angel.

There was a spell that literally made it impossible to know Ben was Glory.

No, she didn't know about the Mayor. And she was surprised she didn't know that one.

 

[Icarium]

Professor Walsh was human.

How about Oz then? Or Veruca? Or the demon-guy in The Puppet Show? Miss French? Ampata?

Anya spent over a thousand years as a demon and still acted like Anyanka (bragging about her evil deeds). There wasn't much difference when she got demonized again.

But that's exactly the point, isn't it? If we assume that Buffy has some mystical spidey sense, it won't catch suspicious behaviour since Buffy has a brain for that, it would work by somehow detecting supernatural baddies due to their essence or aura being wrong or something like that. Anya was obviously goading Buffy into making a wish, something she never did as a human, btw. When Buffy mentions spidey sense in I Robot, You Jane, she just meant that people were acting weirdly, not that she literally had such a sense.

Most importantly, we never see Buffy relying only on the spidey sense to decide if Suspicious Person X should be slain or not. Even with Kathy she used a scientific approach by studying her nails. So even if she does have a spidey sense and it was telling her something was fishy about Ted, she still used excessive force to subdue him, something she usually does not in similar situations (heck, even Cave!Buffy doesn't hit Parker strongly enough to kill him).

On a meta-level, the series would have been extremely boring if instead of research Buffy just relied on the prickling of her thumbs. 🙂

 

[faeriegrrl27]

Now, I personally dislike Faith and her insta-redemption

I'm really going to have to disagree with you there. Faith and insta-redemption? From whom? Buffy? Buffy was willing to reason with Faith if she was trying to do better after her coma, but that's because she'd been having these freaky dreams. I don't know about their nature, but I, and Buffy, too, I think, thought she and Faith were sharing those dreams and Faith was a good person in those dreams. But once Faith showed she didn't want to play nice, Buffy was ready and willing to fight.
Or are you meaning redemption from Angel? In Five By Five, before Faith broke down, Angel was ready and willing to kill her. Cordy totally left in Sanctuary because she didn't trust Faith. Wesley helped because he truly believed Faith was trying to change, but he was against it in the beginning. And then Faith turned herself in to the police, to spend several years in prison.
And THEN, when she went back to Sunnydale, Buffy still didn't like her. she didn't trust her, didn't want much to do with her (other than build up a load of sexual tension, that is). Her murdering was still being held against her.
So how is granting Faith redemption? Oh, I know people do. But insta-redemption? I can't think of a single person on the show who instantly, without anything happening, forgave Faith.



As for that whole Ted business, Buffy's "spidey-sense" or, more accurately, intuition, only works if she actually spends time with that person and if that person is bad. In Oz's case, he is neither bad, nor fully a werwolf. When the moon's out and stuff, he is, but he doesn't even remember his wolf times. All but 3 days of the month, he is fully human, I'd say. This compares to Veruca who has embraced the wolf in her. And it's not fair to say Buffy didn't know about Veruca... did the two even have a conversation? The same applies to the guy from the Puppet Show. We never saw him and Buffy having a conversation or even crossing paths. The only time she ever saw Ms. French was in class for all of what? Two days? Ampata, I agree, was a strange situation. But she had been human once, which may account for it. And she wasn't exactly evil. She just wanted to be a normal girl, which Buffy understood.
You're right that Buffy never relied on her intuition to slay anyone, and I don't think that's what she did with Ted. Most humans Buffy hit go down pretty fast. They either pass out or are otherwise immobilized. And with other humans she's beat up, they didn't attack her first. With Ted, he did hit her first AND he remained conscious after Buffy hit him for the first time. So she was both defending herself and using what she believed to be the force needed to do so. That was my whole take on the thing.

 

[crazysoulless]

I agree with the second half of your post.

But when it comes to Faith I think everyone did forgive her very easily. The AI team and the Scoobies almost immediately made her their new leader. Both groups gave her a place to stay and had people looking up to her and thinking she was cool. Faith did more than murder people. She sexually violated Buffy. She tortured Wesley. She punched Joyce in the face. She elbowed Cordy in the face. She held a knife to Willow's throat. She strangled Xander. She poisoned Angel. Of course Buffy wouldn't want to be her friend. But she did let her sleep in her bed and gave her leadership advice and defending her massive mistake (the bomb trap) and comforted her when she felt guilty over it. Angel visited her in prison and wanted to hug her when she left town. Wesley was willing to help her until she tortured him nearly to death. It is understandable that he would need time to deal with that. When Buffy was nearly killed in BOTN the gang looked more worried that the person that protects/leads them was being taken away but with Faith's injuries it was more of a concern for Faith the person.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I agree with the second half of your post.

But when it comes to Faith I think everyone did forgive her very easily. The AI team and the Scoobies almost immediately made her their new leader. Both groups gave her a place to stay and had people looking up to her and thinking she was cool. Faith did more than murder people. She sexually violated Buffy. She tortured Wesley. She punched Joyce in the face. She elbowed Cordy in the face. She held a knife to Willow's throat. She strangled Xander. She poisoned Angel. Of course Buffy wouldn't want to be her friend. But she did let her sleep in her bed and gave her leadership advice and defending her massive mistake (the bomb trap) and comforted her when she felt guilty over it. Angel visited her in prison and wanted to hug her when she left town. Wesley was willing to help her until she tortured him nearly to death. It is understandable that he would need time to deal with that. When Buffy was nearly killed in BOTN the gang looked more worried that the person that protects/leads them was being taken away but with Faith's injuries it was more of a concern for Faith the person.

In terms of AI, I wouldn't call her their leader. She seemed to be taking orders from Wes 90% of the time. Lorne treated her well, but he treated everyone well. Connor may have had a thing for her, but he wasn't part of the team, plus he was arguably a villain in S4.

 

[Icarium]

As for that whole Ted business, Buffy's "spidey-sense" or, more accurately, intuition, only works if she actually spends time with that person and if that person is bad.

I wasn't talking about intuition, I was refuting the idea that Buffy has some mystical spidey sense by virtue of being a Slayer.

Or are you meaning redemption from Angel? In Five By Five, before Faith broke down, Angel was ready and willing to kill her.

I meant the breakdown. One minute Faith is all about crush, kill and destroy, the next she is all ready to pay for crimes. Too sudden, too easy, IMO. Angel in particular accepted her change of mind way too easily. Redemption was probably the wrong word to use but I couldn't think of anything else. Insta-conscience maybe?

So she was both defending herself and using what she believed to be the force needed to do so.

Did you miss Buffy's smile when Ted slapped her and gave her an excuse to beat him up? As she says - "I was so hoping you would do that". Even the shooting script describes her initial punch as "And she hauls off and smashes him in the face. About as hard as a slayer can." If she was merely defending herself, she wouldn't have started by hitting him as hard as possible in the face, would she?