Buffyverse Positive & Negative

[chasesummers]

I believe Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel both left a mark in our lives, especially cause many fans join forums to get the most out of the Buffyverse.

There were many moments where you connect to a situation, feel what their feeling, relate to characters or despise them... moments where you're entertained, engaged, interested or simply bored.

Thats what makes a successful show, so tell me; when Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel (Buffyverse) come in your mind, what are the five positive and negative things that come in your mind?

Feel free to be spontaneous or think it through, stand out.
My list would be:

Positive
1) The character of Buffy Summers. She was and still is the most honest, real and relatable character out there in the media for me. Even SMG was a perfect pick for Buffy, she has something special that not everybody is able to see, like her beauty, it's not obvious. And of course.... What Would Buffy Do?

2) The character of Cordelia Chase. Represents individual growth. I can never forget how she started out but I will always remember her as what she came to be. Cordy is a big part of Buffyverse to me, she's part of the strong female energy line 😉

3)The huge Buffy world, expanded more with Angel and the comics. When I decided to watch it all the first time it was so exciting to explore the Buffyverse, I'm very proud of it.

4)The respect it has to mostly loads of things mainly the feminine energy.
It's so wonderful to see gay and lesbian characters getting as much attention;
It's nice to see how things where researched and somethings recreated respectfully;
It's beautiful how women weren't turned into sex-objects and was given the respect they deserve;
In the same time, the masculine energy was still appreciated.

5)The endless special characters that were created to relate to every individual (Faith, Willow, Tara, Xander, Giles, Anya, Buffy, Cordy, Angel, Fred.....)
Episodes with taboo-related subjects, with human life subjects and metaphorical stuff really help the audience to question, questioning is important.


Negative

1)The pointless drama! It's very normal to have drama because life can be quite dramatic but personally it gets old as I myself ain't dramatic. So many problems and arguments like when Buffy returns home in Season 3. Characters grow this way, but it's not always the best choice to go for.

2)How they ''raped'' Cordelia's character in Season 4 of Angel.
This ain't like the Buffy & Spike story in Season 6 I disliked (a lot) because people can actually relate to the what happened throughout that Season so as much as I dislike it and avoid watching it, I'm also proud of it, helped Buffy get stronger.
Cordelia being possessed for this entity could have been a good story but it was very hard to watch; sleeping with Connor, killing Lilah, going against Willow and really... not participating in the Angel Investigations gang, that hurt the most. It wasn't Cordelia, and like Season 5, there was a part of ''Ange'' that was missing to me.

3)How character development slowed down both in Buffy and Angel because of the ever increasing characters. Don't get me wrong, I love all of them but still... Throughout the seasons I missed the Buffy/Willow/Xander and Ange/Cordelia/Doyle or Wesley.

4)How it didn't continue to Season 8 and Season 6 of Buffy and Angel of course!
Comics are splendid but not my first choice, would prefer books. Also, Buffy has a very symbolic ending in S7, we are all slayers.

5)(Can't really think of anything else right now but..) How Faith TVS or Ripper didn't happen, it could have been an opportunity to see old cast members return and expand the universe.

_______________________________________________________________________

Let's not forget the wicked Buffy Theme song and the very fitting Angel Theme song.
Something like this can never be remade, it would be simply a bad idea 😉

 

[Robb Stark]

I'll post a bunch of positives in a bit, but one thing that jumps out to me right away was the repitition of storylines, which just felt derivitive after a while.

Seriously, how many characters "go evil" at some point in BTVS/AtS? Buffy, Angel, Spike, Faith, Xander, Willow, Anya, Andrew, Jonathon, Wesley, Gunn, Cordelia, Fred/Illyria, Skip, Lindsey, it just goes on and on. We didn't need THAT many "evil" stories, but it was clear that Joss just loved them. Four of the seven BTVS seasons culminate in the Scoobies fighting an evil version of one of their own, and AtS has that many times as well. It had grown old by S4 of AtS, but seeing a pregnant Cordelia engage in a duel to the death with Angel was so stupidly silly that the seasons was pretty much dead as soon as I saw it.

 

[timbitsmama]

Positive:
-The fact that the characters of Buffy, Willow, Xander and Cordelia in the first season were like real teenagers and not the 27-year-olds playing teenagers you see in most teenaged based shows

-Buffy's ability to remain strong and hold her own. She doesn't need a man to be herself!

-Angel shows us that redemption isn't easy and probably cannot completely happen to someone--you need to work your butt off for what you believe is right and to fight your own personal demons

-The idea of love throughout both series is true and not hokey marshmallow junk

-Both shows are so engaging and dynamic that we actually feel for the characters and forget that they are really just actors and are having coffees and laughing after a death scene (that thought always cheers me up)

Negative:

-Buffy lost sight of its quirks and funny bits as the show got more serious

-I feel as though they were running out of ideas so just decided to kill almost every character off in Angel

-Buffy became more dependant on Spike towards the end :/

-Both shows were full of just stupid moments. Like really? An Angel episode that focused on Mexican wrestlers?

-Two words (and I'm sorry if people disagree): Smile Time. Ugh.

That's my bit 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

Four of the seven BTVS seasons culminate in the Scoobies fighting an evil version of one of their own,
it.

I can only count two: Season 2 and Season 6.

Season 1: The Master, definitely not a scoob
Season 3: The Mayor, also not a scoob, or are you counting Faith?
Season 4: Adam? Or are you counting Riley being mind controlled?
Season 5: Glory/Ben - Or are you blaming Dawn for being the key?
Season 7: The First/Caleb? Do you mean because the First looked like Buffy/Spike upon oiccasion?

 

[Robb Stark]

I can only count two: Season 2 and Season 6.

Season 1: The Master, definitely not a scoob
Season 3: The Mayor, also not a scoob, or are you counting Faith?
Season 4: Adam? Or are you counting Riley being mind controlled?
Season 5: Glory/Ben - Or are you blaming Dawn for being the key?
Season 7: The First/Caleb? Do you mean because the First looked like Buffy/Spike upon oiccasion?

Angelus, Faith in S3 (I did count her), Willow in S6 and The First in S7. The First was a Scooby for essentially the whole season.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I believe Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel both left a mark in our lives, especially cause many fans join forums to get the most out of the Buffyverse.

There were many moments where you connect to a situation, feel what their feeling, relate to characters or despise them... moments where you're entertained, engaged, interested or simply bored.

Thats what makes a successful show, so tell me; when Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel (Buffyverse) come in your mind, what are the five positive and negative things that come in your mind?

I like this thread idea a lot! It gives us a chance to re-visit how we felt when we saw these moments initially.
(in no particular order)

Positive:

1. Angel turning evil (losing his soul arc). i.e. one of the best arcs in the entire series

I've never self so much empathy for a character than I did for Buffy. The metaphor was perfect and genius and real and relatable; you sleep with your formally loving boyfriend, and he changes towards you, turns "evil."

In "Innocence:", when Buffy tearfully asks "was I not good?" I always tear up. I feel for her, as I remember being her age and having similar insecurities.

2. The dream sequence in "Out of My Mind"

I had been rooting for Spuffy since he slinked on to my screen in "School Hard", and when it finally "happened", I had a very funny reaction: I feel off my bed and yelled "HELL YES!" so loudly that my neighbor came over to ask what was wrong. When I saw it was only a dream, I was SO disappointed, lol.

3. Buffy jumping for Dawn in "The Gift"

This scene hit my hard. I bawled like a baby. It totally took me by surprise.

Despite how much I love S6, a little bit of me thinks the show should have ended with this. I know that's how Joss designed it, because he didn't know if the show would get renewed.

Buffy is so full of love, and in many ways, I think the series is about love - the power of it, how it endures, what people will do for love, etc that it makes sense for it to end like this; with our brave and fearless heroine dying for the love of another.

And that frame of them all crying over her dead body? It kills me. Spike collapsed, unable to even hold himself up in grief, Willow distraught, Giles looking completely dejected, Xander in shock...it's very effective.

Some might be surprised at this next choice, since it's a Bangel moment but...

4. The scene in the cliff in "Amends"

Buffy convincing Angel to not kill himself is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series.

Her conviction and faith in him is incredible, her speech to him is terrific:

Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together. But if you're too much of a coward for that, then burn. If I can't convince you that you belong in this world, then I don't know what can. But do not expect me to watch. And don't expect me to mourn for you, because...

5. The church scene in "Beneath You"

I bet no one is surprised that I'd choose a Spuffy scene as the most positive for me.

This scene is important to me because it's where we learn that Spike got a soul for Buffy.

Spike, always the poet, explains what it feels like to have a soul again, and it's beautiful:

The spark. The missing - the piece, that fit. That made me fit because you didn't want - I can't. Not with you looking. I dreamed of killing you. I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak? Thinking of you? Hauling myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your- ending. Angel, he should've warned me. Makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here. In me. All the time. The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve. And I got it. They put the spark in me, and now all it does is burn.

...and he then lays himself on the cross to burn in perhaps one of the most symbolic imagers in the entire series:

Negative:

These can be anything, right?

1. The lack of Willow's redemption

Willow, unlike Spike or Angel, or even Anya, isn't required to redeem herself after trying to end the world. Rather, we excuse her because she did it out of grief, and because she was "addicted" to magic. Barf.

2. Spike and Buffy's mutually abusive relationship in S6

As much as I love seeing Spike naked, and analyzing everything about this period, all would have been better off without that little affair they had. It took them a long time to come back from that.
(But! many would argue that the AR needed to happen to propel Spike to get a soul...which I disagree. I think he could have gotten it without going that far, but whatever.)

3. The awful stunt doubles

Need I say more?

4. "Bad Eggs"

No comment.

5. Tara's death. I think it would have been more interesting if it had been Dawn. Will explain later.

 

[EVIL UU]

Positive:

It's fun!

No, really. That's the most important thing about this show in my opinion - it's just so entertaining.

It's intellectually engaging!

BtVS is a show about teenagers and vampires. At the same time it's filled to the brim with mythological, religious and pop-cultural references, visual metaphors, allegories and foreshadowing. Teenagers and vampires, OK? It's impressive.

It's gay!

There's an honest to god coming out scene in season 2, minor gay characters and subtext later on and finally the second most important character on the show turns out to be a lesbian. And she has a serious relationship that lasts for 3 seasons. That was some pretty groundbreaking stuff when the show was on air.

Issues, man!

BtVS is not afraid of dealing with social and gender issues. Teenagers and vampires, remember?

Characters!

The characters don't really have that much depth and the character development is pretty limited, really but what elevates them is the flawless dialog. Seriously. Buffy speaks like Buffy, Willow speaks like Willow, Xander speaks like Xander, Giles speaks like Giles, Spike speaks like Spike. You can take the script of an episode you haven't seen, remove the characters' names and you will still know who is saying what. I think that it's one of the reasons why there's so much BtVS fan fiction - character voices are unique, distinct and pronounced and thus extremely easy to replicate.

Negatives:

Buffy doesn't make sense!

First 4 seasons of character development and plot are flushed down the drain, then Buffy is resurrected and she stops making any sense as a character up to the point where the show devotes an entire episode ( "Conversations with Dead People" ) to retroactively explain the lead character's motives and the most glaring, obvious issues are still not addressed. There's not enough character growth for 7 seasons worth of content either, to be honest, I think that the show doesn't really know what to do with its lead past season 3.

Sex is not bad, OK?!

Sex is demonized on this show like in some puritanical asshole's wet dream! No, sex is not bad, tender sex, rough sex, kinky sex, whatever floats your boat, it's OK. No, everybody is not a rapist, Jesus. The actual badness sex can lead to, you know, STDs and unplanned pregnancy, is never addressed on the show. Ridiculous.

It's boring and pretentious!

BtVS can be incredibly boring and the pretentious factor goes off the chart with a troubling frequency. Recreational drug use is an incredibly complex criminal, social, political and medical issue and no, naive, cringe-worthy drugs are bad kids, 'kay? trumpeting is not going to solve it. No, alcohol does not turn you into a cave woman, getting drunk is what humans have been doing for thousands of years, all in all, it works pretty well for us, thank you very much. No, the boy you've been dating for like two years will probably not turn into a monster after you sleep with him. Add all the stereotypes and cliches and really, BtVS can often be pretty hard to watch sober.

Every season is a rehash!

This show rehashes and recycles villains, stories, character arcs, plot twists - you name it. Everything is already done in season 1 and 2. Everything. Lack of creativity and imagination is a huge problem.

The suspension of self-awareness

I don't even know how to call it but OK, basically, the characters on BtVS are very self-aware, they are aware of the genre their story takes place in and they are also aware of their own past actions ( Hey, wait till you have an evil twin. See how you handle it./I handled it fine. ) ...unless they are not. It's a disharmony that in my opinion damages the show more than anything else. Time for examples, right? Alright. Buffy doesn't recognize how much of a cliche she is for falling in love with a vampire. Willow doesn't recognize that she becomes both a witch and a lesbian stereotype she dislikes so much. Characters conveniently forget their own actions to deal with problems they already solved in the past or to come off as morally superior. Obviously, this is done for the sake of drama and that is exactly why BtVS fails as a drama.

 

[Xin Rong]

Angelus, Faith in S3 (I did count her), Willow in S6 and The First in S7. The First was a Scooby for essentially the whole season.

Fair enough, I can accept Faith as a Scooby, although I think others might disagree 🙂

But, as for season 7, I don't think we can count the First as a Scooby just because he/she/it looked like one. They were not really battling one of their own, in fact they were battling creatures or beings that looked like one of their own, upon occasion.

Although, I agree with your original argument, and this idea was something that was overdone in both shows.

 

[Robb Stark]

I imagine this one will be a bit contentious, but I don't think BTVS is as good with metaphors as so many maintain. I think that the show has truly outstanding characters, [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] made a fantastic point when he referred to how each of them sounds, but the metaphors, when you really look at them, fall a little flat.

I mean, let's just look at a few of the big ones. The one I most often see cited is Angel's evil turn in S2, and how representative it is of the guy who's nice just to get you into bed, about how he turns "evil". The trouble with this of course, is that Angel turns out to be a pretty good guy, he's not a jerk and Buffy goes back to him. It's like they quit on the metaphor part way through. If Angel really was a dick and Buffy didn't go back to him then yeah, it would work. But that's not what happens. That IS what goes down in S4 with Parker, which is a far more accurate rendition of that happening.

Again going with Evil UU, all of the endless "sex is evil...you hear me? EVIL" metaphors, from every time Buffy has sex it turning into a supernatural catastrophe to Xander going home for a one night stand that turns out to be First-worshiping killer to Cordelia hooking up with a guy who in turn implants her with demon seed to everything in between, the demonization of sex is just brutal.

The Willow arc at the climax of S6 is another. Magic is a metaphor for exploration, love and finding yourself in S4...until it isn't. By S6 Joss has decided that it's now a metaphor for drug addiction, complete with seedy crack den and everything. Huh? Why? Then, as Willow "spirals" (because the imagery wasn't overt enough I suppose) and crashes, the metaphor is reversed again. Suddenly magic isn't all that addictive and even though she came within a breath of destroying the freaking world, yeah, it's cool for Willow to start using magic again. Slop.

Yeah, I don't think BTVS is all that great with metaphors, which is odd considering how much praise it routinely garners for just that. Inconsistency bugs me as well (seriously here, how in the hell can a rational person explain Anya joining, and remaining in, their group?), but I can usually suspend my disbelief for that.

I want to be clear. I love BTVS. I think it has amazing characters and some of the best written dialogue and in-character chemistry I've ever seen. But it does have it's flaws.

 

[itssmiletime]

I love the Buffyverse, but I am going to tear it to shreds, so please keep that in mind.

Stuff I love

-Broke a lot of ground and challenged perceptions about television. I've never seen an episode like Hush. I've never seen a compelling portrayal of grief than The Body. I've never seen a risk- taking episode of television such as Smile Time or Normal Again.

-Yep, emotionally, it's there. Specifically to Angel The Series, Wesley stealing Connor as well as everything that followed was a punch in the gut. I can't watch the end scene in Forgiving. Just... can't. Even the 'ew' moments such as Gnarl feasting on Willow's skin, Warren getting flayed and Xander getting an eye poked out... I would honestly watch those scenes than the end of Forgiving. Other scenes that are utterly devastating, include finding out fred's soul got destroyed, Doyle's death, etc. There are shows such as Supernatural where characters have gone through, worse, yet when it comes to emotional response, it's utterly stale. Buffyverse is great at getting into the core of our fears and horrors.

-It knows when to take a joke. A problem with the supernatural / sci fi/ fantasy genre is that it takes itself too seriously. Whenever there are attempts at humour, it just seems so awkward and out of place. Yet Buffyverse is like, yeah, the world's going to end and hey, let's have a hilarious scene of Buffy trying to convince Joyce that she and Spike are in a rock band. Let's end the shouting match that was the episode titled Dead Man's Party with funny, light insult banter between Willow and Buffy. Let's have an episode where Angel is a puppet. Make Oz suggest fighting the mayor with hummus.

-Genres, genres, genres. Community gets alot of praise for it, yet the Buffyverse is also incredibly versatile: science fiction, comedy, drama, romance, horror (and plenty of subgenres), fairytale, high school, psychological, thriller, action, apocalypse. Sure, some are done quite well and some, are well, not good, yet it is pretty impressive the amount of ground the show covered and willingness to experiment- not many shows have the guts to deliever something like Restless.

And now the bad stuff...

1. It's really, really, really problematic. I can write all day about the show's horrendous treatment of suicide and depression, sexual assault, domestic abuse and trauma. Not only that, but there is a fair deal of racism in it. I can't accept it and I don't want to.

2. Stupid characters are stupid. It's not as bad as say, The Walking Dead is in terms of character- stupidity (oh boy, that show will redefine your definition of what you consider stupid, it's -that- bad, the mere fact I just mentioned twd makes me want to declare the buffyverse is completely, 100% flawless) yet it is still jarring and annoying. Battle plans are deeply flawed that the show and other character ignores. Villians leave characters alive for no real reason. Character's don't learn lessons. For the sake of drama and comedy, characters make very questionable decisions (for example, the Scoobies giving Spike hospitality in S4).

3. Kind of a minor one- Deus Ex Machina / logic flaws / luck overload. The scythe. Sunnydale High becoming an army. Troll Hammer being strong enough to beat the life out of Glory. It's convenient and one-sided.

4. The quality of the show is all over the place. The thing is though, I would actually place certain episodes of the Buffyverse such as Restless, Not Fade Away, Hush, The Body... amongst episodes such as The Rains Of Castamere. (Game Of Thrones), Ozymandias (Breaking Bad). Yeah, I said it. And yet those two shows haven't (well in the case of the former, yet and I god hope not), utter travesties of television such as Get It Done, Teacher's Pet, Inca Mummy Girl, Wrecked, Showtime). My point is that what makes the Buffyverse frustrating is that it can reach the very high points of television. And it should, once it found it's foot and felt comfortable. (Which it did). Yet it made the three stupid mistakes I listed above (and other petty minor ones) far too many times.

 

[Sweet J]

Positive The early horror, the early humour, the school, the early friendships, the early music, the grungy Bronze.
The feeling of Sunnydale being this mysterious place hiding something unknown but powerful just beneath the surface.
Buffy struggling with juggling her school life,home life and extra-curricular activities, her desire to be something more than what her "chosen" circumstances/genes said she should be - "The Slayer".

Negatives The show toning down the horror to near non-existent levels - token vampire, token hokey bad guys - Glory, the trio. Turning the Bronze into a brothel looking "trendy" bar, the show essentially diving into soap opera territory in Season 6 to the detriment of the other genres. The boring geek stereotype in the "trio". Willow becoming a lesbian, where the hell did that come from? No building character development leading up to this to make it believable. Whingey pointless characters - Dawn, Tara, Andrew, Glory, not to mention the "Girl Power" cringefest in season 7, sure the show always had some cringe worthy pretentiousness with Buffy's "girl power" one liners, but they could easily be overlooked as anomalies because the rest of the dialogue and story was the main driver of your attention.
Buffy pretty much turning into a stay at home step-mom and losing all desire to achieve something more than being just the Slayer. Sure it was good to see her become the school counsellor but she never showed any real desire for that profession, she never got trained, nor really worked towards that/didn't deserve it and that job didn't even last. Joss using the show to push some kind of propaganda message of the week without any subtlety or intelligence , men, drugs and sex are bad mmkay?

I also agree with the following.

I imagine this one will be a bit contentious, but I don't think BTVS is as good with metaphors as so many maintain. I think that the show has truly outstanding characters, [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] made a fantastic point when he referred to how each of them sounds, but the metaphors, when you really look at them, fall a little flat.

I mean, let's just look at a few of the big ones. The one I most often see cited is Angel's evil turn in S2, and how representative it is of the guy who's nice just to get you into bed, about how he turns "evil". The trouble with this of course, is that Angel turns out to be a pretty good guy, he's not a jerk and Buffy goes back to him. It's like they quit on the metaphor part way through. If Angel really was a dick and Buffy didn't go back to him then yeah, it would work. But that's not what happens. That IS what goes down in S4 with Parker, which is a far more accurate rendition of that happening.

Again going with Evil UU, all of the endless "sex is evil...you hear me? EVIL" metaphors, from every time Buffy has sex it turning into a supernatural catastrophe to Xander going home for a one night stand that turns out to be First-worshiping killer to Cordelia hooking up with a guy who in turn implants her with demon seed to everything in between, the demonization of sex is just brutal.

The Willow arc at the climax of S6 is another. Magic is a metaphor for exploration, love and finding yourself in S4...until it isn't. By S6 Joss has decided that it's now a metaphor for drug addiction, complete with seedy crack den and everything. Huh? Why? Then, as Willow "spirals" (because the imagery wasn't overt enough I suppose) and crashes, the metaphor is reversed again. Suddenly magic isn't all that addictive and even though she came within a breath of destroying the freaking world, yeah, it's cool for Willow to start using magic again. Slop.

Yeah, I don't think BTVS is all that great with metaphors, which is odd considering how much praise it routinely garners for just that. Inconsistency bugs me as well (seriously here, how in the hell can a rational person explain Anya joining, and remaining in, their group?), but I can usually suspend my disbelief for that.

I want to be clear. I love BTVS. I think it has amazing characters and some of the best written dialogue and in-character chemistry I've ever seen. But it does have it's flaws.