Caleb Human???

[hollybuffyfan1]

So the whole Slayers can't kill Humen rule?
Is Kaleb a Human? If he is ovuly a megga evil one
but, if he is buffy kills him, does that make her a murder?
I was just watched End of Days and it came to me, So if his not Human then what is he? lol
xox-Holly-xox <3

 

[Silum]

hes a human infected with the super powers of the first just as vamps are humans with a demon inside them. The line is blurry sure but Caleb was no longer human.

 

[white avenger]

Caleb probably did the same thing that Mayor Wilkins did: sacrifice his soul in order to become a servant of Evil. Since they were soul-less beings, Buffy was able to kill them without violating her Slayer Codes. (Of course, the Knights of Byzantium from Season 5 were a different matter entirely. They WERE human, because Glory was able to feed off of one of them, and Buffy killed at the very least a half dozen just in the motor home chase scene.)

 

[IdiotJed]

^That always did bother me. I mean, I can assume that the Knights were obstacles in Buffy's quest to protect Dawn, but still, they were human. I had to go back and watch the episode where they're running from Glory again just to be sure thinking maybe I had it wrong and she just injured them, but alas, no. Our girl killed humans... unless the wounds weren't fatal, which I think they were. Anyway, this is giving me a headache, so...

Yeah, Caleb was human but sold his soul to the First and even though biologically he was flesh and bone, his soul was rotted with evil. Guess that trumps the no killing humans rule.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Slayers can certainly kill humans if they have to. (To defend themselves or others, which was certainly the case here.)

I think Caleb was human at one time, but not anymore by the time Buffy encountered him. Too bad Spike couldn't do the Punch Test on him. 🙂

 

[hollybuffyfan1]

nice points guys, i was thinking the same as white avenger. 🙂 <3 xox

 

[Frketson]

^That always did bother me. I mean, I can assume that the Knights were obstacles in Buffy's quest to protect Dawn, but still, they were human. I had to go back and watch the episode where they're running from Glory again just to be sure thinking maybe I had it wrong and she just injured them, but alas, no. Our girl killed humans... unless the wounds weren't fatal, which I think they were. Anyway, this is giving me a headache, so...

I dont know why it does bother you, they were trying to kill her, seems pretty natural that she would fight back.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Oh, it's not so much the fact that Buffy kills the knights that I have a problem with. There was no other option at that time. It's the fact that she doesn't seem to care. It's never mentioned again.

Although, I suppose it could have contributed to her going catatonic. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of recognition though. It wasn't all that long ago that she was beating on Faith.

 

[white avenger]

The thing that always bothered me about that "Thou shalt not kill a human under any circumstances" policy of Buffy's was that it just seemed to be her own personal code, not anything that was official Watcher Council policy. The wet team who came to retrieve Faith after she came out of her coma didn't seem squeamish about the idea of taking human life, and Giles himself most certainly wasn't. I think that the whole thing was just Buffy's own personal belief, and she tried to impose it on the others. Giles didn't seem nearly as upset about Faith accidentally killing the Assistant Mayor as he did that she tried to shift the blame onto Buffy.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

The thing that always bothered me about that "Thou shalt not kill a human under any circumstances" policy of Buffy's was that it just seemed to be her own personal code, not anything that was official Watcher Council policy. The wet team who came to retrieve Faith after she came out of her coma didn't seem squeamish about the idea of taking human life, and Giles himself most certainly wasn't. I think that the whole thing was just Buffy's own personal belief, and she tried to impose it on the others. Giles didn't seem nearly as upset about Faith accidentally killing the Assistant Mayor as he did that she tried to shift the blame onto Buffy.

I definately agree. The strange thing is, it all came to a head between Buffy and Giles.....at the end of Season 5. Which, weirdly, is when she gets stab happy with the knights. I mean, obviously, Dawn was her prime consideration there, but still...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I think the killing humans thing was never so much a moral thing on the part of Slayers as a practical one. There are mundane mechanisms in place for dealing with human vs. human violence... the Slayer needs to focus her efforts on the demons and vampires or she'd never have time to get anything done.

But she has the same right as any other person to defend herself and her friends from an immediate threat by anyone, human or not.

 

[Revolver]

In my opinion, those knights needed killing, human or not. They were after her, and a person she loved. So I say go Buffy.

I see your point about her not really acknowledging what happened, but I guess in my opinion it was just trumped by other things happening. Immediately afterward, they were still very much in danger and Giles was potentially dying. And after that Glory had Dawn, which was about the worst thing Buffy was capable of imagining at the time.....And after that Buffy was, you know, sorta dead.

 

[fly on the wall]

I think Buffy's moral code had more to do with what was legal.

She didn't feel as though she had the right to pass judgment on any human, to kill them because they were "bad", etc. She felt these people should be dealt with in HUMAN ways--going through the legal system, going to jail, etc. This is why in S6, she wanted to catch Warren and turn him in to police, not kill him as Willow wanted to.

Still, where human laws applied, I think Buffy was okay with killing humans. In self defense, if someone is trying to kill you, you can certainly defend yourself, and that's what Buffy was doing on the top of the mobile home.

I'm glad Buffy thought this way. It would have been irritating if she had thought of herself as some kind of supreme being that decided what people lived and what people didn't. I never disliked this aspect of Buffy.

 

[Frketson]

Oh, it's not so much the fact that Buffy kills the knights that I have a problem with. There was no other option at that time. It's the fact that she doesn't seem to care. It's never mentioned again.

Although, I suppose it could have contributed to her going catatonic. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of recognition though. It wasn't all that long ago that she was beating on Faith.

I dont think it really was worth mentioning, they were trying to hurt her and her friends. So she killed them, she shouldnt have any bad feelings about seeing as she was doing the only thing she could.

Now if she killed someone innocent like faith did then it would be a totally different story.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I dont think it really was worth mentioning, they were trying to hurt her and her friends. So she killed them, she shouldnt have any bad feelings about seeing as she was doing the only thing she could.

Now if she killed someone innocent like faith did then it would be a totally different story.

I'm not saying she wasn't justified - just that pre Season 6 Buffy would have had an issue with killing a human. She totally freaked even when it was Faith she "killed", remember? It was a huge deal for her. She always did have that strange fascination with not killing humans - probably compounded by her efforts to disasociate herself from Faith. I don't have a problem with what she did. I just think she would have done.

 

[Frketson]

I'm not saying she wasn't justified - just that pre Season 6 Buffy would have had an issue with killing a human. She totally freaked even when it was Faith she "killed", remember? It was a huge deal for her. She always did have that strange fascination with not killing humans - probably compounded by her efforts to disasociate herself from Faith. I don't have a problem with what she did. I just think she would have done.

Yeah i guess it does seem odd that she killed them after all that hoo ha with faith. Maybe they were trying to show that when it comes to family, seeing as she lsot her mum, she wasnt willing to lose anyone else.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Slayers kill witches who are just humans that use magic.

 

[LizzieRainbow]

At first i wondered about caleb not because of the buffy cannot kill humans but just wondered in general, but i deffinatly think that he was a human under power of the first, as silum said a human infected with supernatural powers.

 

[white avenger]

In my opinion, those knights needed killing, human or not. .

The problem was, the Knights of Byzantium really weren't doing anything wrong, any more than Holtz was on "Angel." Both the Knights and Holtz firmly believed that they were defending humanity from a great evil. Even Giles admitted that killing Dawn might turn out to be the only choice in the end. Both the Knights and Holtz became so obsessed with their respective missions that they became blinded to the possibility of an alternate solution, but the fact remains that, if they had succeeded, the threat of Glory destroying the world would have been averted just surely as it was when Buffy did it. The only real difference was that Dawn would have ended up dead instead of Buffy. (I think maybe we backed the wrong horse)

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I always saw Caleb as a human, a human that was a devil worshipper; a leader in his field of worship.
As for the Knights of Byzantium, they often spoke of, 'such is the will of God, let God's will be done'. As such I saw them as part of God's army. The 'we will always return' factor would place them as immortal. I didn't see them as Buffy's enemy at all as they wanted to stop Glorificus as Buffy did, only they followed a different path.
That led me to the belief that Buffy's calling was from God and that is why the Knights didn't get in her way anymore, otherwise there would have been thousands of them.