Can a vampire (without a soul) be selfless?

[thrasherpix]

Here's the link to the YT vid I mentioned:

Now I must resist the temptation to post links to my favorite reviews by him.

Also, I should warn anyone who gets hooked on these...he seems to take about 2 weeks to put up another review (and is currently nearing the end of season 3).

 

[bespangeled]

I think that to be purely selfless a vampire requires a soul - a lens that shows what evil really is, and a desire not to do evil. Angel, in LA, is capable of being purely selfless in that he helps total strangers without any personal gain. But in BTVS he is helping Buffy because he wants Buffy to survive. And in Ats he is also capable of murder for selfish reasons, so a soul is not a guarantee of selflessness.

Spike is capable of enduring pain to achieve a goal - he puts up with torture from Glory because Buffy is more important than his pain. His motive may be selfish - he would never put up with that sort of pain for a stranger - but his actions are also selfless in putting up with pain. If that's selfish for Spike, then it's true of all the BTVS characters - they all put up with pain to help Buffy at various times. The difference is that they would (and do) also take risks to help strangers.

It's a mixed bag for both humans and vamps - but lacking a soul means that vamps lack a component needed for truly selfless choices. Good and evil are abstract concepts without a soul.

 

[ChaseRules]

Spike not giving up Dawn's identify to Glory because he knew how it would impact Buffy would be high on the list of many examples:

SPIKE
Buffy - the other… the not-as-pleasant
Buffy. Something happened to Dawn
it'd destroy her. I couldn't live, her
being in that much pain. I'd let Glory
kill me first. Nearly bloody did.

and Buffy accepted his reason for his actions and acknowldeged there were done unconditionally:

BUFFY (cont'd)
What you did for me,
and Dawn, that was real.
(turns to him)
And I'll never forget it.

I see that as Spike being selfless . He said that he did that so Buffy wouldn't be in pain . And after Buffy died he stayed around to help out
the Scoobies in honor of Buffy memory .

 

[Kana]

If selflessness actually exists, then I'd say it would be possible for a soulless vampire to be selfless. Most of our 'selfless comes through us being social beings and vampires are social beings. We see vampire offer their lives to others in servitude or perhaps love. It's perhaps less likely that soulless vampires will selfless towards humans.

 

[Sternbeeere]

Good and evil are abstract concepts without a soul.

They are actually abstract concepts even with a soul and by many characters are seen as grey areas, specially villains. We can see that in Jasmine, the First Evil, Lilah, to a certain point Glory and even Giles.

f selflessness actually exists, then I'd say it would be possible for a soulless vampire to be selfless.

I think it also depends on the definition of selfless and selfish. But if one sticks to the definition as to put the needs of an other person before their own, then Spike is selfless when he helps Buffy, even if the wish to be around Buffy maybe mixed in his motives, the mere act of letting himself being tortured is selfless not to forget that he expected that Glory would actually kill him. If he was ready to give up his life, he really acts selflessly in that moment.
Additionally, we can see (semi)-selflessness in many cases, like Drusilla caring for Spike when he is sick and asking him if he wants to be vampire or not. This indicates that vampires, even soulless, can act selflessly . I assume that the extent as to what they are capable of depends on their personalities humans and their later life experience.

 

[bespangeled]

If selflessness actually exists, then I'd say it would be possible for a soulless vampire to be selfless. Most of our 'selfless comes through us being social beings and vampires are social beings. We see vampire offer their lives to others in servitude or perhaps love. It's perhaps less likely that soulless vampires will selfless towards humans.

And that's the real question - does absolute selflessness exist?
Was it selfless of Xander and Angel to rescue Buffy in Prophecy Girl? No - they wanted Buffy to be alive more than they cared about what happened to them. The difference I see here is that Angel and Xander would rescue a total stranger as well - which is more selfless.

Of course, rescuing a stranger give one a feeling of validation and self worth.

A regular vampire with a soul is more like Dru, wiling to give up 100 years of devotion because immediate gratification means more. A chipped vampire with a soul - willing to endure pain and humiliation to meet a personal goal. A souled vampire - desperate to be dusted in order to make sure everyone is safe.
 

hey are actually abstract concepts even with a soul and by many characters are seen as grey areas, specially villains. We can see that in Jasmine, the First Evil, Lilah, to a certain point Glory and even Giles.

Agreed - there is also the point that the most selfless actions can have the worst results - rescuing Connor. And again - was Faith being selfless when she went after Angelus - or was she being selfish because she knew anyone else would try to kill him? When it comes to taking action, motives are always gray.

I think it also depends on the definition of selfless and selfish. But if one sticks to the definition as to put the needs of an other person before their own, then Spike is selfless when he helps Buffy, even if the wish to be around Buffy maybe mixed in his motives, the mere act of letting himself being tortured is selfless not to forget that he expected that Glory would actually kill him. If he was ready to give up his life, he really acts selflessly in that moment.

The issue is definitely the definition of selfless or selfish. But Spike himself has an epiphany once he has his soul and sees what he has done. Souled Spike sees his unsouled actions as selfish. I'm going by a pretty pure definition of selfless, and as I pointed out very few human actions in the B-verse would also be purely selfless.

Additionally, we can see (semi)-selflessness in many cases, like Drusilla caring for Spike when he is sick and asking him if he wants to be vampire or not. This indicates that vampires, even soulless, can act selflessly . I assume that the extent as to what they are capable of depends on their personalities humans and their later life experience.

I don't think that Dru would have left William alone if he had said he didn't 'want it.' James and Elizabeth also took care of each other for a long period of time. They all had mixed motives - they all wanted a certain outcome.

 

[Sternbeeere]

A regular vampire with a soul is more like Dru, wiling to give up 100 years of devotion because immediate gratification means more. A chipped vampire with a soul - willing to endure pain and humiliation to meet a personal goal. A souled vampire - desperate to be dusted in order to make sure everyone is safe.

With Dru it is very complicated, since we only see the break up from Spikes perspective. Additionally she is insane and that means thinking differently than any other character on the show, regardless of the species. Last but not least she is a seer, she might have forseen Spike being ensouled or with Buffy or whatever and decide Spike is happier without her.
With Spike wanting a certain outcome, maybe a part of him yes. An other part was willing to die for the one he loved. When he died his goal, being with Buffy, would not be possible. So he still had a selfless part within him, even being soulless.
Yet I do think that a soul increases the possibility of selfless action and the quality and quantity of a selfless actions. Thus Spike would see his wish to be with Buffy as selfish, even if there were selfless parts in him.