Can Bangel fans give me a good reason why Buffy and Angel are the better ship?

[hoponlilmama]

HELP

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2026

I think if we were going for entertainment wise Spuffy is my pick, mainly because of the whole enemies to lovers thing.

It's a tired old trope. And as others have said, I don't find an abusive 'relationship' entertaining.

Angel is fine, but many fans think that he is insufferable on BTVS and is better on his own show.

I don't know about 'many' fans, but certainly when Angel gets given more time to breathe and a focus on his character outside of his relationship with Buffy, there's more dimension to him.

They were just more entertaining in my opinion, but I wasn't sold on them working out longtime, until he got his soul.

Ooohh......no. A thousand gallons of no.

He was just really supportive, while Angel felt more like the scoobies or Buffy's fake friends.

Buffy has 'fake friends?' Are they made of plastic? 😉

 

[thetopher]

You know what I see that, but in season 7 its almost like they were setting that up with Spike's mommy issues backstory thingy. They just never got around to it because that whole season is a mess and they opted for isolating the characters and making everyone insufferable.

I don't really see that.
Yes, Season 7 is a convoluted mess but Buffy being isolated from her friends in 1) 'thematic' and 2) there specifically to facilitate the Spuffy shipping, as in 'the only person who believes in Spike is Buffy' ('Never Leave Me') and the payoff being 'Touched' where everyone 'abandons' Buffy except Spike. Show me a Spuffy fan who doesn't love that speech and use it evidence that Spike 'deserves' Buffy's love, no matter how many characters/relationships the writers had to assassinate/damage (including Buffy herself) to have it come about.
So its reasonable to assert that the season is there to serve Spuffy shippers above all other viewers...and yet the writers also feel the need to have the whole thing be ambiguous, at least from Buffy's side of things. To me the most important, most honest conversation that Buffy and Spike ever have is in 'End Of Days' and it really shows that its still mostly about Spike and Spike's emotional expectations that he puts on Buffy.

 

[NotASlayer]

Yes, Season 7 is a convoluted mess but Buffy being isolated from her friends in 1) 'thematic' and 2) there specifically to facilitate the Spuffy shipping, as in 'the only person who believes in Spike is Buffy' ('Never Leave Me') and the payoff being 'Touched' where everyone 'abandons' Buffy except Spike.

Which is classic abuser behaviour.

Isolate the victim.
Make the victim believe that the abuser is the only one there for them.

Show me a Spuffy fan who doesn't love that speech and use it evidence that Spike 'deserves' Buffy's love, no matter how many characters/relationships the writers had to assassinate/damage (including Buffy herself) to have it come about.

And the whole "deserves" idea is also pure abuser behaviour. Spike "deserves" Buffy as a prize for what he has done. No-one deserves to be given someone else.

 

[hoponlilmama]

And the whole "deserves" idea is also pure abuser behaviour. Spike "deserves" Buffy as a prize for what he has done. No-one deserves to be given someone else.

Which often serves as the argument by a chunk of fans of why Spike is 'better' for Buffy and 'deserves' her.
"He fought for his soul!" Conveniently ignoring that it was after he tried to violently rape her, blamed her for what happened and repeatedly called her a "b****".

The actions of a man apparently "in love", who only a couple of weeks prior said, "I don't hurt you".

 

[NotASlayer]

Which often serves as the argument by a chunk of fans of why Spike is 'better' for Buffy and 'deserves' her.
"He fought for his soul!" Conveniently ignoring that it was after he tried to violently rape her, blamed her for what happened and repeatedly called her a "b****".

The actions of a man apparently "in love", who only a couple of weeks prior said, "I don't hurt you".

"He fought for his soul" Assuming he did - and the evidence never backs this up, only Word of God does, which is either incredibly poor writing or shows that they changed their minds after the fact and Spike was originally written as being screwed over, which is backed up in his behaviour before, during and after getting a soul - so what? Get enough brownie points, win a free girl?* The whole "deserves" idea is repugnant and turns Buffy into just a thing.

*Girl will be assigned automatically; her interest in being awarded as a prize is not relevant, nor is her agreement.

 

[hoponlilmama]

"He fought for his soul" Assuming he did - and the evidence never backs this up, only Word of God does, which is either incredibly poor writing or shows that they changed their minds after the fact and Spike was originally written as being screwed over, which is backed up in his behaviour before, during and after getting a soul - so what? Get enough brownie points, win a free girl?* The whole "deserves" idea is repugnant and turns Buffy into just a thing.

*Girl will be assigned automatically; her interest in being awarded as a prize is not relevant, nor is her agreement.

100%! Pretty terrible to turn Buffy into some kind of 'prize'.

As for that storyline for Spike - poor writing and decision making; a combination of the two.

I'd love to have seen something different come of his trip to Africa:
-Spike gets scammed into getting a soul and has to live with it - thereby also realising he never 'loved' Buffy, but was merely obsessed with her
-Spike gets a soul - but regrets it
-Spike goes to get his chip out - and succeeds

 

[garfan]

100%! Pretty terrible to turn Buffy into some kind of 'prize'.

As for that storyline for Spike - poor writing and decision making; a combination of the two.

I'd love to have seen something different come of his trip to Africa:
-Spike gets scammed into getting a soul and has to live with it - thereby also realising he never 'loved' Buffy, but was merely obsessed with her
-Spike gets a soul - but regrets it
-Spike goes to get his chip out - and succeeds

those people believe that Buffy's reaction to her thing with Spike was "methinks the lady doth protest to much." That she wants him more than she admits. Read deserves as worthy of

Considering Spike is generally on the record as against the sort of mind games Angelus plays and he could attack Buffy in season 6 it wouldn't actually do much for him to get the chip out, regarding Buffy at least

 

[hoponlilmama]

those people believe that Buffy's reaction to her thing with Spike was "methinks the lady doth protest to much." That she wants him more than she admits. Read deserves as worthy of

Definitely not worthy nor deserving. As for Buffy wanting him more than she admits, that is likely Spuffy logic coming into play.

Considering Spike is generally on the record as against the sort of mind games Angelus plays and he could attack Buffy in season 6 it wouldn't actually do much for him to get the chip out, regarding Buffy at least

No one said anything about mind games, but Spike removing the chip and becoming a 'whole' vampire again is what would matter ("can't be a human, can't be a vampire, where the hell do you fit in?!").

And by extension, Spike at full power would hurt Buffy. If he starts harming her friends, or wreaking havoc on the town, it would be a reminder that Spike isn't so harmless after all.

 

[NotASlayer]

-Spike goes to get his chip out - and succeeds

My preferred option; I would have loved to have seen S2 Spike return, the best Spike. Especially if it could have led to the return of Spike and Dru.

 

[hoponlilmama]

My preferred option; I would have loved to have seen S2 Spike return, the best Spike. Especially if it could have led to the return of Spike and Dru.

Yes! Love this suggestion. Peak Spike, definitely.

 

[garfan]

My preferred option; I would have loved to have seen S2 Spike return, the best Spike. Especially if it could have led to the return of Spike and Dru.

Ugh, character regression. Something every show needs. Juliet Landau wouldn't have come back though

 

[NotASlayer]

Ugh, character regression. Something every show needs. Juliet Landau wouldn't have come back though

Given that Spike's character went drastically downhill after S4, that's not regression. Now, what was done to every other character in the last two seasons, that was regression or worse.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I love both ships for different reasons. That being said, I think that Angel and Buffy were both equally as invested in each other and that Angel loved her more than Spike. The reason I say that is that Angel walked away from Buffy because he knew that realistically they couldn't have a true future together. He wanted Buffy to be able to have as much normalcy in her life as she could, whereas Spike and Buffy's relationship was almost purely based in the physical connection they had. I do believe Spike truly loved Buffy, but I don't believe Buffy loved Spike as much; I think she used him a lot for physical comfort. Someone else mentioned that Buffy never really took the time to truly learn about who Spike was in his human life, whereas she did with Angel.

 

[NoShip]

Considering Spike is generally on the record as against the sort of mind games Angelus plays and he could attack Buffy in season 6 it wouldn't actually do much for him to get the chip out, regarding Buffy at least

No one said anything about mind games, but Spike removing the chip and becoming a 'whole' vampire again is what would matter ("can't be a human, can't be a vampire, where the hell do you fit in?!").

And by extension, Spike at full power would hurt Buffy. If he starts harming her friends, or wreaking havoc on the town, it would be a reminder that Spike isn't so harmless after all.

Spike plays all kinds of mind games. He is a grand master at mind games. His interactions with Buffy, especially S6, are almost entirely mind games.

If you want to know what Spike wants, more than anything, just watch Act 1 of S4's The Yoko Factor.

Just after the Intro, Spike & Adam are talking in Adam's lair. Adam ridicules Spike's ability to kill Slayers and Adam gives him a deep look into his deepest desire.

Which is to be a complete vampire who can "Savage The Land". Spike wants the chip out more than anything.

@hoponlilmama is spot on. Spike expects that once he is full powered again, he will kill or fxck Buffy in the normal course of his life. This desire does not change until Spike gets his soul.

So Spike actually, underneath all the Spuffy & fandom hype, really & truly is a mass killing & raping & abusing monster.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Spike plays all kinds of mind games. He is a grand master at mind games. His interactions with Buffy, especially S6, are almost entirely mind games.

That's true, but I meant more about the 'games' Angelus plays ('leaving gag gifts in their beds'), which isn't something Spike does.

If you want to know what Spike wants, more than anything, just watch Act 1 of S4's The Yoko Factor.

Just after the Intro, Spike & Adam are talking in Adam's lair. Adam ridicules Spike's ability to kill Slayers and Adam gives him a deep look into his deepest desire.

Which is to be a complete vampire who can "Savage The Land". Spike wants the chip out more than anything.

Side note - I love that speech from Adam. He's direct, honest, and that speech rattles Spike to his core. The tiger trapped in a cage, unable to escape.

@hoponlilmama is spot on. Spike expects that once he is full powered again, he will kill or fxck Buffy in the normal course of his life. This desire does not change until Spike gets his soul.

So Spike actually, underneath all the Spuffy & fandom hype, really & truly is a mass killing & raping & abusing monster.

Agreed!

 

[NoShip]

my point there was kind of that her choices for women love interests also contributed to apocalypses

Not every relationship is perfect.

BUT......

I bet Fuffy or Billow trying to work things out while the world burned would be entertaining as hell!!!!!

 

[KaitKat]

As others have said neither vampire is good for Buffy.

I think for me it just depends on when you watch Buffy for the first time.

I was young, elementary school young, when I watched Buffy for the first time and ate up the doomed lovers forced apart narrative. Rewatching as an adult pre Angelus everything just seems so awkward and forced. I care about Bangel only because Buffy does. I was ready for him to leave by the time he did and will say that this relationship was toxic in its own way.

As a middle school or high schooler I got the appeal of Spike. He loved Buffy and would do anything for her. When I was an adult it was so easy to see how toxic this relationship was.

 

[NoShip]

those people believe that Buffy's reaction to her thing with Spike was "methinks the lady doth protest to much." That she wants him more than she admits. Read deserves as worthy of

Then "those people" need to use their words. 'Deserves' does not equate to 'as worthy of'. Especially in the context of a young woman. AND it is mind numbingly easy to type 'as worthy of'. It only requires two more letters than 'deserves'.

Post automatically merged: Apr 6, 2026

Ugh, character regression. Something every show needs. Juliet Landau wouldn't have come back though

Why is that character regression? Spike is getting what he wants. The audience is getting a truly awesome version of Spike. One we never got to spend enough time with.

 

[garfan]

Spike plays all kinds of mind games. He is a grand master at mind games. His interactions with Buffy, especially S6, are almost entirely mind games.

If you want to know what Spike wants, more than anything, just watch Act 1 of S4's The Yoko Factor.

Just after the Intro, Spike & Adam are talking in Adam's lair. Adam ridicules Spike's ability to kill Slayers and Adam gives him a deep look into his deepest desire.
Which is to be a complete vampire who can "Savage The Land". Spike wants the chip out more than anything.

@hoponlilmama is spot on. Spike expects that once he is full powered again, he will kill or fxck Buffy in the normal course of his life. This desire does not change until Spike gets his soul.

So Spike actually, underneath all the Spuffy & fandom hype, really & truly is a mass killing & raping & abusing monster.

In season 4 after Yoko Factor, the Scoobies are all horribly embarassed to be played by Spike's manipulations and his plan is so bad that Adam calls it out

Adam isn't so great a judge of character either. Otherwise he'd have known that Buffy didn't need to be tricked down there

 

[NoShip]

Adam isn't so great a judge of character either. Otherwise he'd have known that Buffy didn't need to be tricked down there

Adam was never a good, much less great, judge of character because he didn't have to be. His plans worked so long as he understood what motivated his supporters and his enemies.

Adam did not have any interest in Buffy's good character. He just needed the Slayer in the Initiative bunker when the demons were released to even the kill rates.

Adam's failure was in not considering the wild creativity of his enemies. His failure with Spike was in not clocking Spike's fundamental incompetence at creating and executing a rational plan.