Can you have a soul without a conscience?

Buffy Summers

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In Angel Season 11, issue 1 starts with a little summary of Angel's backstory, and says the gypsy cursed him with a soul and a conscience. I'm not sure I ever thought about there being two pieces to the curse.

Can you have a soul without a conscience? Or is the conscience the consequence of the soul? Is this why Angel is so different from Liam?
 
Can you have a soul without a conscience?
Of course. I mean, there were a few humans that seemingly had no conscience. Or very little. But I assume they still had a soul. Soul doesn't equate to conscience by default.
 
I think the soul is simply free will and the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. It fits with many philosophical theories of the soul and it is how the soul is most consistently described on the show.
Is this why Angel is so different from Liam?
Angel was born out of dealing with the guilt of Angelus. Liam was just a young man rebelling against his father. I think Spin the Bottle suggests that Liam was not really all that happy with Liam. I don't think he was quite as awful as he appears in some of the flashbacks.
 
So, did the gypsies in fact give Angel a conscience along with the soul?
I think the writers were attempting to explain Whedon's thought process of what the soul is, as he mentioned previously that the soul just means a person (or a vampire) is more apt to do right. As an atheist he really didn't care what the soul was and meant it synonymous with a conscience. Maybe by stating that in the comics it was to inform those who had not watched the show what the ramifications of the curse was.
 
Given how ludicrous and inexplicable the comics series has been I think it's just a mistake in the writing. Like the mirror thing. Seems just an attempt to explain the significance of a soul, presumably for new readers since long-time fans would already know all about it.
 
Can you have a soul without a conscience?
It much depends who you listen to in terms of the soul. I'm sure the Ancient Greeks saw it simply as "a spark" that animated an essential humanity already present in the body. Aquinas though everything had a soul (but only humans had immortal souls). The idea of redemption being an intrinsic part of the soul is (I think - I'm not an expert on theology) a relatively late addition. The difficulty I have with the soul in Buffy is a) the idea of good/evil is neither timeless not culturally universal and the conscience, inasmuch as it relates to the Super Ego, is cultural. I'd have problems reconciling that with the notion of an eternal soul. For me, the soul is simply a convenient marker for separating humans from animals. A conscience is something that perhaps is a better marker of humanity but not intrinsically related to having a soul. What is important (I think) as a restraint is the idea (not the actuality) of losing the soul - it's this fear that bridges the soul and the conscience. Thus the soul becomes an important ideological tool.

My other concern with the soul is where does the 'verse lore come from? If it's Angel, his idea of the soul is conditioned by his Catholicism. If it's Giles (or the Watchers Council), they have a vested interest in a clean divide between good/evil. TBH, the best definition is probably Spike's non-definition: "Got myself a soul, whatever that means".
 
Given how ludicrous and inexplicable the comics series has been I think it's just a mistake in the writing. Like the mirror thing. Seems just an attempt to explain the significance of a soul, presumably for new readers since long-time fans would already know all about it.

Well, I don't think it really matters that it was stated in the comics. It's more about the fact that Angel did seem to have a conscience after he got his soul back, so where did that come from.
 
Well, I don't think it really matters that it was stated in the comics. It's more about the fact that Angel did seem to have a conscience after he got his soul back, so where did that come from.
Why would he not have a conscience? It's not as though we were shown that Liam lacked a conscience. Even if he were a drunken layabout- and I am not saying it as if it's a bad thing mind you, I aspire to one day be a drunken layabout- he still never had death and destruction on his hands before. So... I don't see where it's that big of a deal that Angel had a conscience. Hell, arguably, Spike had one before he got a chip or a soul.
 
Well since we do see an almost instant change in Angel after he's resouled I'd say yes a soul is a conscience - however, whether that is all that the soul constitutes is up for debate. When he get's his soul back in becoming he's immediately Angel again, even though he doesn't remember yet what he's done - if a soul was just a conscience than he would have to be reacting to the memories of his crimes in order to be 'Angel', wouldn't he?

Ryan on AtS is an interesting case in point - his lack of soul seems to give an explanation for his psychopathic behaviour. One the one hand I thought this was cool (for the twist of it) and it seemed the show was suggesting an ontological explanation for evil even in humans, but it's also kind of problematic if it implies that all human evildoers of Ryan's type are simply that way because they're born without souls.
 
Liam lost his soul, to become Angelus, not his conscience. The soulless demon just made it easier to ignore his conscience. Just as the soul made it easier to listen to it.
Until S5 Spike, at least, I think both shows were pretty clear on the soul = conscience i.e. ability to feel remorse and empathise with human suffering.
 
but it's also kind of problematic
I agree. It's far better to have a soul and do evil. You can really cherish it. That's why Warren is such a great character and has one of the better arcs in the show.
 
Until S5 Spike, at least, I think both shows were pretty clear on the soul = conscience i.e. ability to feel remorse and empathise with human suffering.
But that goes against what Whedon first described it as; it's simplifying it. Just like the text in the comic did.
 
Other than Ryan, the 'verse's depiction of humans is pretty consistent - they all have souls, and therefore consciences, it's just that some choose to ignore their conscience, or indeed their desires/resentments enable them to overcome the effects of conscience. But because it is still there, there is hope for them to return to being better people. Best example: Faith.

I agree. It's far better to have a soul and do evil. You can really cherish it. That's why Warren is such a great character and has one of the better arcs in the show.
😵😵😵
When you say 'better' you mean from a storytelling perspective, right?
 
But that goes against what Whedon first described it as; it's simplifying it
Not really - the soul being what makes a person more apt to do right makes sense if it is a conscience, because as we see with humans a soul doesn't guarantee goodness/morality, it's just enables access to the whole moral spectrum. A person can choose to ignore/go against it. Therfore 'more apt' makes sense. Without a soul there is no resistance to the impulse of violence, pain and destruction.
 
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Without a soul there is no resistance to the impulse of violence, pain and destruction.
But that's not what he said initially, when he first described what a Buffyverse soul did (this was around S3 I think). The way he spoke of a soul was the way you would speak of a conscience. The way he spoke on it is that even without a soul it was still a choice between doing right or wrong, just you had more of a desire to lean one way versus the other.
 
But that's not what he said initially, when he first described what a Buffyverse soul did (this was around S3 I think). The way he spoke of a soul was the way you would speak of a conscience. The way he spoke on it is that even without a soul it was still a choice between doing right or wrong, just you had more of a desire to lean one way versus the other.
Could you provide a link/reference please?
 
Are you talking about what he said at Paley Fest, "soulless creatures can do good and souled creatures can do evil, but . . . the soulfree are instinctually drawn toward doing evil while those with souls tend to instinctually want to do good."?
 
Are you talking about what he said at Paley Fest, "soulless creatures can do good and souled creatures can do evil, but . . . the soulfree are instinctually drawn toward doing evil while those with souls tend to instinctually want to do good."?
It was something like that, but I thought it was on a commentary... I never watch those Paley Fest things.
 
Are you talking about what he said at Paley Fest, "soulless creatures can do good and souled creatures can do evil, but . . . the soulfree are instinctually drawn toward doing evil while those with souls tend to instinctually want to do good."?
I think that's still a problematic retcon.
 
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