Can You Trust the Clues in Buffy?

nerd4hire

Certified Uncloneable
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
9,102
BTVS the series has a history of embedding clues in the episodes that give indication something related to the clue is going to happen in a future episode.

An obvious example of this is the bit when Willow was trying to get Tara to help her with a Demon Seeking spell. The spell involved spilling powder on a map. Tara hid the powder and only pretended to do the spell. It turned out Tara believed she was part demon and wanted to hide this from Willow.

Here's the problem with clues, though. How do you know when it's a real clue and when it's a red herring (something that looks like a clue but it's only purpose is to throw viewers off the track of the truth)?

I think there's a way.

A red herring is acceptable if it can be explained within the context of what's happening within the individual scene or episode.

Here's an example; In Bring on the Night the turok-han follows Buffy up out of the hole and is immediately repelled by something. The sun is rising so our first reaction is sunlight has repelled the uber-vamp. On closer viewing though, we notice there is not only sunlight facing the turok-han. There is also the shadow of Giles. This could be significant. It could also be a red-herring. Either explanation is acceptable within the context of the scene.

Here is an of an example of a place where a red-herring is not acceptable; Again in Bring on the Night there is a scene where Wood and Buffy have been discussing movies. Wood tells Buffy he likes mystery movies then gives a sly smile. This bit has no purpose within that scene other that to tell viewers something is up. Inferior writers will use this kind of thing as a cheap, silly trick to intentionally throw viewers off, but the writers of Buffy are not bad writers. They know these episodes will be shown again, and again. If it turns out that this clue is only a trick, future clues and clues of the past would not be taken seriously. It would cheapen the whole series.

In my opinion they are telling you Wood really does love to solve a mystery and he thinks Buffy has one.

Based on this, I'm going to make a wild-eyed prediction. Wood is a government man (Please, spoiler-tag people. If it turns out I'm wrong, don't spoiler-tag me to prove it. I don't want to know, yet).
 
Okay ... I don't get your method, what's the difference.

I think Wood likes mysteries, is because he is the mystery.
 
I *think* I understand....

In the scene where the ubervamp recoils back into the whole, he is either retreating from the sun. or from the FE, who is portraying Giles. At this point we don't know. If it turns out thet it was the FE disguised as Giles, then we'll say, "ah ha! He was recoiling from the FE." If Giles is not the FE we'll conclude thar Ooby was in fact recoiling from the Sun, and the fact that Giles was there was to throw us off (As was the fact that we never saw him touch anything).

In the case of Wood's smile as he walked away from Buffy, though, it has to mean something. Nearly everyone who has seen the scene now believes Wood is up to something, though which side he's on is unclear. If it turns out that Wood is an innocent who knows nothing, then we are going to rewatch that scene and say, "What was the point of the smile? It didn't tell us anything, and it never got explained. It was just a trick to make us think something was up."

But the writers could do something else...they could explain the sly smile in a way that has nothing to do with Wood's involvement with the FE, or the story arc.
 
Thank You diminished 9th. You explained it better than I did.

I only have a problem with this part.

But the writers could do something else...they could explain the sly smile in a way that has nothing to do with Wood's involvement with the FE, or the story arc.

Wouldn't this also feel like a cheap trick? Maybe I just have too much faith in Buffy writers. I don't think they'd go that route.

They might throw in meaningless nonsequitor stuff like the guy with the cheese hat in the episode where they were all dreaming, but that was just a joke.

I can't think of a spot where the writers gave us viewers what appeared to be an intentional clue, then came around later and made us feel like fools for taking the foreshadowing seriously.
 
I guess my point was that as long as they explain it cleverly, then I don't mind being led on. Although, if Wood is nothing more than a character we wonder about, I will be disappointed because they have such potential for an interesting character. But didn't anyone think that Snyder was more involved than he turned out to be? I came in way late, so I'm not a great judge, but I have had inklies of "In the know guy" with Snyder.

I don't know if this is a clue, but in Fool For Love, when Spike promised Buffy he'd kill her, I've always felt like that was a big foreshadow of Spike killing Buffy. I don't know if Whedon ever intended to have Buffy kill Spike and then decided to make him fall in love instead. To me, this is along the lines of a big clue that never went anywhere.
 
I always thought Spike's slayer killing obsession as seen in Fool For Love foreshadowed the whole Buffy-Spike, Love-hate thing to the point where in Once More With Feeling he's so crazed by it he says "First I'll kill her, then I'll save her".

I think I understand your main point though, and I think I agree with you.

Are you saying the foreshadowing may not lead to the exact place you expect, but that isn't a problem as long as both events have equal dramatic power?
 
Are you saying the foreshadowing may not lead to the exact place you expect, but that isn't a problem as long as both events have equal dramatic power?

Eh...nothing so elequent. Mostly I was just trying to come up with other places where we've thought they were foreshadowing something when they weren't...

My other point (and maybe this is what you meant) is I don't mind being led down one path, only to find that its the wrong path, as long as the real path is convincing. Are you still with me? Good. So, if it turns out that the smile didn't mean whwt we all thought it meant, I'm ok with it as long as it meant something (ie, there's a mystery movie out that Wood wants to take Buffy to...). It's a loop, and Joss loves throwing us for loops.

I have also noticed that people read into things that I am sure were never the intentions of the writers (though I don't think Wood's smile falls into this category). As I read all the threads here and see what everyone thinks something means, I often find myself never having thought of someone's observation. That doesn't mean they're wrong, but I do think that while Buffy provides rich ground for analysis, a lot of the symbolism or clues people see come by accident, not from purposeful intentions of the writers.
 
I agree with everything you say except this;

I'm ok with it as long as it meant something (ie, there's a mystery movie out that Wood wants to take Buffy to...

For me, if that's all there is, it's not good enough, not even if the movie is Scream 2. or I Know What You Did Last Summer.

The event would have to be something powerful enough to make me forget what I expected. If not I would feel cheated.

Double Post (next time use the edit button!):

Great merciful Zeus! I just thought of something. What if that's all Wood's sly smile is referring to; Sarah Michelle Gellar's appearances in Scream 2 and I Know What You Did Last Summer.

You know what? I think that might be what it was. Do you remember when Buffy told Kendra not to watch any movie on the plane with Chevy Chase and a dog in it (referring to SMG's appearance in Oh Heavenly Dog).

I feel burned now. I want my money back.
 
Okey dokey people. I've read this thread and I've decided that I have another example.

In the Angel ep "I Will Remember You" the Moira demon told Buffy and Angel "together you are strong, alone you are dead." But then Joss is trying to put them with new people without having the End of Days battle in which Buffy and Angel are supposed to be key figures. Was the whole Moira demon, indeed the entire episode, just something to throw us off the track?
 
Great merciful Zeus! I just thought of something. What if that's all Wood's sly smile is referring to; Sarah Michelle Gellar's appearances in Scream 2 and I Know What You Did Last Summer.

You know what? I think that might be what it was. Do you remember when Buffy told Kendra not to watch any movie on the plane with Chevy Chase and a dog in it (referring to SMG's appearance in Oh Heavenly Dog).

Let me say, nerd4hire, that I love reading your posts. You pick things apart and analyze them and I *love* that. But how you got there ^^ from here, I have no idea! Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaatch! Reeeeeeeeeeach for the sky! LOL!! 😀 😉
 
I don't think that the Ubervamp was repelled by Giles (FE), since so far the FE has never shown its face in daylight! I'd say that THAT was a big clue about what really is going on with Giles.

When it comes to Principal Wood, I found his speech about true evil much more of a clue than the movie discussion. He said: Once you have seen true evil, you cannot make it unseen.....
Now that was deep and promising.
 
yo nerd4hire...you know way too much bout buffy...probably more than the thespians...that deserves respect and sorrow...
 
Call me stupid, but I'm still not getting it, I mean Wood's smile could as well mean nothing, just an employer smiling to his employee ... nothing wrong with it, nothing special about it ... and the writers laughing their asses off, because we seek for the meaning of it!
 
Actually Allycat, I kind of agree with you... In itself, and by itself the movie conversation has no real significance.

I suggest this to you though; Season 7 appears to be loaded with what appear to be clues to future happenings. I don't think I'm alone in this belief. If all of us who share this belief are wrong, the buffy boards are wasting a lot of band width (yes soulgasm. I know that's what you believe. I understand your opinion and respect it, now please leave me alone).

In my opinion I don't think we the believers are wrong. I think there are clues and trying to decipher them is an acceptable amusement.

As I said before, if the movie conversation clue was the only one it wouldn't mean much, but it isn't. What it is is one of the more obvious representatives of what appear to be clues.

If it turns out this clue is only the writers thumbing their noses at we the viewers who take their foreshadowing seriously, I personally will lose some respect for them.
 
Call me stupid, but I'm still not getting it, I mean Wood's smile could as well mean nothing, just an employer smiling to his employee ... nothing wrong with it, nothing special about it ... and the writers laughing their asses off, because we seek for the meaning of it!

Except, he smiled as he walked away from Buffy, like he was smiling to himself about some secret joke. So, I too have a hard time believing the smile meant nothing.
 
If it helps; I smile to myself, it's more like smirking, but anyway, if I do it, there's always something up, so I guess you win!
 
OK, now that we know a little more about Wood and that Giles wasn't the First, I want to revisit this issue.

Frankly, I think that the Giles was a red herring that did not work, in exactly the way nerd4hire said that Wood's smile would not work. It was a misdirection with no real substance; it was only there to throw us off. I really expected *something* to be up with Giles...I didn't think he was the first, but it just seems very pointless the way they played it out. I mean, come on, how many weeks in the house and no one noticed him touching stuff? If he was coporeal, everyone in the living room would have known it.....if he wasn't, they're confusion would have been more understandable. I hope all is not revealed yet about this. Otherwise, big disappointment.

I'm much more sastified the Wood thing. There were/are secrets there, he's on the inside track, as I suspected. I enjoyed knowing something was up with him, but not knowing what it was. Good stuff there. I hope he sticks around.
 
Or maybe, we are given the clue that the first evil isn't corporeal and can't touch anything, so we automatically assume that Giles isn't the first because the Scoobies have touched him, but maybe this is a red-herring...

Let's not forget that The First touched Angel (yeah, ok, so maybe it can only touch dead things... but hey)

But I think this is something to think about...
 
Back
Top Bottom