Change of Opinions

[white avenger]

It's ludicrous to say that Spike (or anybody else, so this isn't a shot at Spike) is more valuable when being controlled by the enemy than any other random guy who isn't being controlled by said enemy. That's why the premise of the episode is deeply stupid, just like most of the season. Spike only turned out to be "reliable" because Wood's actions somehow deactivated the trigger, so funnily enough Buffy was only "right" by virtue of Wood's "treasonous" actions having a completely unexpected outcome that Buffy couldn't have foreseen.

Ludicrous or not, Buffy trusted Spike, believed in him, protected him from her friends when necessary, and valued him as a fighter above everyone else in her group. I fully realize that, for the exact reason that she trusted and valued him, Spike was as much a potential liability as he was an asset, but, gven the fact that Willow was reluctant to use her full magical power, Spike was the only other super powered warrior at her disposal before Faith arrived, and, arguably, possibly at that point even more powerful than she was.

Once more I say, Buffy's mind set at that particular time was that her mission was the highest priority, and Spike was, in her opinion and by her own words, the only one watching her back. What she made is called a command decision, something that commanders and leaders have been making as long as there have been armies, gangs, or mobs. You don't have to accept it unless you accept her leadership, but if you don't, you can't, or at least shouldn't, live under her roof, eat her food, and enjoy the benefits of her protection.

The bottom line is, as far as Buffy was concerned, even with the risk involved, Spike, who she knew and trusted, was a greater asset than Wood, who she knew very little about and who had proven himself, in her eyes, to be untrustworthy. We can talk woulda, coulda, shoulda, all day long, we can speculate on what we would have done in her place, we can sympathize with Robin Wood for losing his mother almost before he ever really knew her, we can condemn the monster who killed Nikki, and we can say that we don't see any indication that that monster was sincerely repentant of that or any other crime or atrocity that he had committed over his century plus reign of terror., but none of that, if Buffy ever even stopped to think about it, outweighed her trust in Spike, and, ultimately, her trust and support was rewarded because of one simple factor, above and beyond everything else.

Joss Whedon wrote it that way, and if he wrote it that way, that's good enough for me.

 

[Kean]

Ignoring S8 here, don't the girls have a choice? They have added strength blah blah blah, but in a theoretical future system, wouldn't they also have the choice to accept the duty or reject it? So it's not like the Shadow Men, forcing the girl to defend their helpless selves. It's forming a better future for her and other future Slayers because they don't have to bear the burden of being the One Girl and thus abolishing the cruel system the Shadow Men set.

I can't think of a slayer that has ever been able to walk away. Not in the nine seasons of this story. I can't think of anyone who could make that choice. Slayer powers don't just give you strength, it fundamentally changes your make-up as a person. It makes you less human, physically. Even if a girl never openly engaged with slaying, it would force its way into her life by means of the dreams and physical impulses. Being a slayer is elemental. Instincts are heightened, physical needs increased. Buffy doesn't just slay vampires and demons, she craves the hunt and the kill. Faith reveled in it.

The Slayer Spell doesn't offer any girl a true choice. They just get to pick how to best deal with what has been forced upon them. Whether she wanted it or not, she got it. There were what, 20 Potentials in Buffy's house? 1800 girls were activated. They didn't get any fancy speech. Imagine the terror of those dreams and the slayer power taking over their bodies. Yeah sure, the activated slayers could intellectually choose to not be slayers, but they are slayers. It is inescapable and that is the choice they should have gotten. That is the choice that matters: the choice before the fact, not after it.

And the truly frustrating thing about those situation is that it wasn't even necessary. The amulet was the key to closing the Hellmouth and stopping The First. Those girls never had to have that power forced on them.

 

[Icarium]

Once more I say, Buffy's mind set at that particular time was that her mission was the highest priority, and Spike was, in her opinion and by her own words, the only one watching her back.

As Cordelia once put it "I was using the phrase 'watch her back' as a euphemism for 'looking at her butt.' So excuse me if I am not in love with the utterly fanfiction-y way this season is written. How do we make Spike or Buffy look good? Why, by making everyone look bad. Wow, that's such a novel concept, guys. Not.

Of course, the execution was so awful that Spike and Buffy arguably ended up looking worst of all but that's another matter...

Anyway, the thing is protecting Spike wasn't about the mission at all. At all. That's Buffy's modus operandi with just about everyone close to her that gets, rightly or wrongly accused of something. With Spike it was merely ten times more pathetic and stupid than usual (excepting her bright idea of dooming the whole universe just for a few minutes more life for Dawn, nothing can top this) but she didn't give Angel or Willow or Giles or Andrew or Anya so many second chances because they were her best fighters, mages or researchers.

You can talk all you want about a command decision but if you feel wronged by somebody would you trust the judgement of somebody who has feelings for that person? Not really, right? If a general says "I am taking an infamous war criminal for my most trusted advisor and by the way, I am totally sleeping with him/her, no big deal", how long do you think they will keep their job? Ten minutes?

Joss Whedon wrote it that way, and if he wrote it that way, that's good enough for me.

I trust my own opinion more than that of anybody else's, including the author of a given work. I am weird like that.

 

[Robb Stark]

I can't think of a slayer that has ever been able to walk away. Not in the nine seasons of this story. I can't think of anyone who could make that choice. Slayer powers don't just give you strength, it fundamentally changes your make-up as a person. It makes you less human, physically. Even if a girl never openly engaged with slaying, it would force its way into her life by means of the dreams and physical impulses. Being a slayer is elemental. Instincts are heightened, physical needs increased. Buffy doesn't just slay vampires and demons, she craves the hunt and the kill. Faith reveled in it.

The Slayer Spell doesn't offer any girl a true choice. They just get to pick how to best deal with what has been forced upon them. Whether she wanted it or not, she got it. There were what, 20 Potentials in Buffy's house? 1800 girls were activated. They didn't get any fancy speech. Imagine the terror of those dreams and the slayer power taking over their bodies. Yeah sure, the activated slayers could intellectually choose to not be slayers, but they are slayers. It is inescapable and that is the choice they should have gotten. That is the choice that matters: the choice before the fact, not after it.

And the truly frustrating thing about those situation is that it wasn't even necessary. The amulet was the key to closing the Hellmouth and stopping The First. Those girls never had to have that power forced on them.

I can't echo this post enough.

The first time I saw S7 I thought it was an awesome finish to the series and the ongoing theme of Slayerhood being isolating.

Re-watching the series and thinking about it more though, and especially after reading S8, it just bugs me. It really does. I suppose the argument could be make that Spike wouldn't have had the opportunity to activate the amulet without 20 Slayers to hold the Turok-Han back, but then when I expound a bit further on that, that doesn't mesh either, because Buffy's overall "plan" (I put it in quotations because calling it a plan is an insult to plans) is just garbage. It doesn't make even the remotest bit of sense. I mean, as far as we can see, Buffy, Spike and Angel didn't even know what the amulet did. The fact that it vaporized thousands of super-vamps was just a happy coincidence. Assuming that's correct, what exactly was Buffy hoping to accomplish by invading the Hellmouth? I mean, without Spike and Angel, Slayer spell or no, everyone still dies.

Now that I'm off on my tangent, the whole threat of the Turok-Han is still not as big as it's implied to be. The world would not have ended. The government makes it very clear throughout the series that they're aware of everything going on in Sunnydale, right? The Turok-Han are, essentially, just suped up vampires. They pour out of there, at night of course, and the U.S. Air Force just annihilates them. Wipes them out entirely. I mean, Sunnydale had totally evacuated by that point. There were no civilian casualties to worry about. So put that way, how big was the threat, really?

Instead of thinking tactically (which is something none of the Scoobies do in S6 or S7), Buffy, Giles and company instead opt to violate and fundamentally change the genetic makeup of thousands of girls, and instantly paint huge targets on them for the remainder of their lives. No viable option is ever really presented in S8 for girls who, you know, don't want to be fight monsters for the rest of their lives and in S7, it's not even shown if Buffy and Willow ever even consider this. There just seems to be no thought given to the consequences and ramifications to what they do.

And the show and the comic continuations even go out of the way to show how bad it turned out. Dana, Genevieve and that crazy mohawk girl (forget her name) all murder people. Every single one of those deaths is on Buffy's hands. And while I don't believe that Buffy was informed of what happened with Dana in S5, the rest of the Scoobies don't seem to even really care, or even be aware of the gravity of what they've done. God, Angel was so right. After how badly that was screwed up, what right did the Scoobies have to claim management of anything? Angel and Spike cleaned up Buffy and Willow's mess, and they both get crap because of it.

Okay, whew..., rant over.

 

[white avenger]

Anyway, the thing is protecting Spike wasn't about the mission at all.

You can talk all you want about a command decision but if you feel wronged by somebody would you trust the judgement of somebody who has feelings for that person? Not really, right? If a general says "I am taking an infamous war criminal for my most trusted advisor and by the way, I am totally sleeping with him/her, no big deal", how long do you think they will keep their job? Ten minutes?



I trust my own opinion more than that of anybody else's, including the author of a given work. I am weird like that.

And once more I will say, whether or not anyone else agreed or not, BY BUFFY'S CONCEPTION Spike was her most important asset and was, therefore, vital to her mission.
I am attempting to explain why, in my opinion, Buffy did what she did. I am not defending or attacking her actions, I am only presenting the facts AS BUFFY SAW THEM. Right, wrong, or someplace in between isn't factored in here. I am attempting to explain why Buffy did what she did, not judge it.

And if you check history carefully, you will note that quite often, military commanders have formed alliances with people and organizations with whom they would, under normal circumstances, not be associated with. Did you ever hear the one about the Vatican and the Mafia during World War 2? There are times when someone's specific skills or resources are more important than their social standing.

As for opinions, they're a lot like armpits. Everyone has a couple, and they usually stink. Hopefully, in a situation like Sunnydale was at that time, the leader based her judgements on the facts as she saw them (there's that phrase again) rather than who she was sleeping with. And just to clarify, if Buffy was sleeping with anyone at the time of her conversation with Wood, it was one or more Potentials, not Spike.

 

[Robb Stark]

To be fair, while it's obvious that Buffy and Spike have both a history and feelings for one another, they don't sleep together once in S7. They don't even kiss.

 

[EffyStonem]

Going to weigh in here. Season 7 was the first season of BtVS that I saw in full. Before that I had seen half a dozen Season 2 episodes and a smattering of eps from Seasons 1 & 3, but I had very little context and/or back story when I watched Season 7. I knew nothing of the Spuffy relationship, Willow’s magical rampage, Xander and Anya’s relationship or why Giles wasn’t around. So my initial impression of Season 7 was quite positive and I enjoyed it for what it was. Years and many rewatches later I came to find that I have nothing but issues with Season 7.

One of my biggest issues is the fact that there is little to no follow up to all the issues raised in Season 6. Buffy seems to have magically recovered from her depression and PTSD, Xander and Anya are barely given closure or the chance to discuss what went wrong in their relationship and Willow’s horrendous magic-as-drugs storyline is conveniently tied up in a nice bow with the flimsy explanation that “the magic is inside her and always will be.” There is also little to no exploration of Willow’s grief over Tara’s death. Dawn’s issues of abandonment and isolation seem to have mysteriously disappeared, leaving a capable and smart young woman in their place, who is sadly underused throughout the whole season.

The Potentials bug me to no end. They contribute nothing to the series overall and take the focus off the characters we’ve been attached to from the beginning and actually care about. They’re also badly written and quite two-dimensional. I can’t stand Kennedy in all her arrogance and immaturity and I really don’t like her and Willow’s relationship which felt rushed and one-sided.

Buffy as a character is assassinated in Season 7, becoming more and more militant, arrogant and self-righteous as the season progresses. Her refusal to listen to anyone’s advice, her dependence on Spike and her utter lack of respect for so many characters drives me up the wall. I cannot stand watching her trample all over everyone’s feelings and wishes simply because she feels she has the right to. I hate that she is willing to put everyone is danger without thought. I truly abhor the way she pushes Willow’s magic further and further, without any regards to what it may do to Willow. And the way she alienates those who have stuck by her through everything in favour of Spike is appalling. She is a truly atrocious leader in Season 7, belittling her “troops”, leading them blindly into battle with no plan of attack, putting them down when they most need her to boost them and basically acting like everyone is beneath her.

However, all of these points pale in comparison to my biggest issue of Season 7 – the relationship between Spike and Buffy. What on God’s green earth was Joss thinking when he allowed Buffy not only to return to the arms of someone who sexually assaulted her, but to become dependant on him too? I’m sorry, but that is gross, irresponsible and downright disrespectful to people who have actually survived sexual assault and/or rape. It undermines what Buffy went through at Spike’s hands and it plays right into rape culture. I don’t care that Spike had a soul in Season 7. It doesn’t change what he did to her and she should not have been able to lie in his freakin’ arms after he sexually assaulted her. Much like Buffy struggled to differentiate between Angel and Angelus, so should she have been unable to differentiate between souled and non-souled Spike. Not to mention that she is shown to have no trauma from the sexual assault; they felt the need to drag her post-heaven stupor out for an entire season but barely gave a much more important and relatable issue more than a mere mention. It’s appalling, really.

 

[white avenger]

However, all of these points pale in comparison to my biggest issue of Season 7 "“ the relationship between Spike and Buffy. What on God's green earth was Joss thinking when he allowed Buffy not only to return to the arms of someone who sexually assaulted her, but to become dependant on him too? I'm sorry, but that is gross, irresponsible and downright disrespectful to people who have actually survived sexual assault and/or rape. It undermines what Buffy went through at Spike's hands and it plays right into rape culture. I don't care that Spike had a soul in Season 7. It doesn't change what he did to her and she should not have been able to lie in his freakin' arms after he sexually assaulted her. Much like Buffy struggled to differentiate between Angel and Angelus, so should she have been unable to differentiate between souled and non-souled Spike. Not to mention that she is shown to have no trauma from the sexual assault; they felt the need to drag her post-heaven stupor out for an entire season but barely gave a much more important and relatable issue more than a mere mention. It's appalling, really.

Obviously, Buffy was applying the same logic with Spike that she and everyone else on the show to some degree, applied to Angel. If Angelus was a different person than Angel, then Spike WITH a soul is a totally different person than Spike WITHOUT the soul. He just didn't change his name to signify that change.

 

[EffyStonem]

Obviously, Buffy was applying the same logic with Spike that she and everyone else on the show to some degree, applied to Angel. If Angelus was a different person than Angel, then Spike WITH a soul is a totally different person than Spike WITHOUT the soul. He just didn't change his name to signify that change.

Soul or no soul, it doesn't change the fact that Spike brutally attacked and sexually assaulted Buffy and the writers then completely glossed over it as if it was no more than a mere slap-fight. They dragged out her post-Heaven depression (but at least it was explored), they realistically showed her grief and struggle after her mother's death, they portrayed her struggle to move on after Angel (both times), yet they decided to ignore the sexual assault in favour of a romantic storyline. That is gross, vile, disgusting and a thousand other expletives I don't feel comfortable using on a public forum.

It spits in the faces of every sexual assault victim in the audience. It undermines what sexual assault victims go through. It trivialises rape and sexual assault. It furthers rape culture. It makes rape look like something that can be overcome easily. It sends the message that abuse is alright as long as the abuser makes a grand gesture of love to make up for it. It's appalling and gross.

Alright I'm done. I will say no more, I've made my point.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

When I first saw the show, I had my views on what was happening.
And now, even after rewatching the season many, many times I still have the same views.
A bit more thought has gone into what happened along the way, but my original understandings of what happened seem to be the same.
A few points have still cause conflicting opinions.
Such as the Spike/ Buffy rape scene, was it rape or assault. Taking into account that Buffy was way stronger than Spike, I thought it was an assault. I must admit that bruise causes the conflict, but why there?
Or of the way Buffy saw Spike as her best fighter in the upcoming battle. I likened that to a small rag-tag group of people going up against an army. Where Spike was like an armoured tank that had broken down, it needed to be repaired before battle. Even when it wasn't working properly it was still classified as the best weapon.
Buffy's reaction to Chloe killing herself. That was justified. They were facing the battle to end all battles and Chloe made their all futures a little less likely.
And Woods, well what can I say. When he joined up he was all about winning the war, then he found out about what Spike did to his mum and he was all about the getting Spike. Sod the battle, sod winning the war he wanted revenge.
What would his mum have said? Probably make sure you win the war, then kill him. So what Buffy said to him; justified.
I saw that in his his need for revenge he was helping the First win. That he needed to be put in his place.
Then there was Willow, doing the spell on the Scythe.
As far as I am concerned if Tara was still in her life Willow would not have had the confidence to use her magic to such a degree, with Kennedy there though. Kennedy seemed to think what she did was great, cool, fantastic and as such that gave Willow the much needed confidence boost.
But the thing that causes the greatest debate for me, is where did the Amulet come from.

 

[itssmiletime]

When I first saw the show, I had my views on what was happening.
And now, even after rewatching the season many, many times I still have the same views.
A bit more thought has gone into what happened along the way, but my original understandings of what happened seem to be the same.
A few points have still cause conflicting opinions.
Such as the Spike/ Buffy rape scene, was it rape or assault. Taking into account that Buffy was way stronger than Spike, I thought it was an assault. I must admit that bruise causes the conflict, but why there?
Or of the way Buffy saw Spike as her best fighter in the upcoming battle. I likened that to a small rag-tag group of people going up against an army. Where Spike was like an armoured tank that had broken down, it needed to be repaired before battle. Even when it wasn't working properly it was still classified as the best weapon.
Buffy's reaction to Chloe killing herself. That was justified. They were facing the battle to end all battles and Chloe made their all futures a little less likely.
And Woods, well what can I say. When he joined up he was all about winning the war, then he found out about what Spike did to his mum and he was all about the getting Spike. Sod the battle, sod winning the war he wanted revenge.
What would his mum have said? Probably make sure you win the war, then kill him. So what Buffy said to him; justified.
I saw that in his his need for revenge he was helping the First win. That he needed to be put in his place.
Then there was Willow, doing the spell on the Scythe.
As far as I am concerned if Tara was still in her life Willow would not have had the confidence to use her magic to such a degree, with Kennedy there though. Kennedy seemed to think what she did was great, cool, fantastic and as such that gave Willow the much needed confidence boost.
But the thing that causes the greatest debate for me, is where did the Amulet come from.

First off, what Spike tried to do to Buffy was rape. Being the slayer doesn't make it simply ''assault''.

Amulet came from Wolfram & Hart.

No, it's never incredibly justified to let someone kill another person, regardless of the consequences. If that means you have to save them 100 times, you save them 100 times.

No, Buffy's reaction to Chloe killing herself was not justified. I have written 2000+ words on this in this thread. There were different, more effective ways to approach this.

Spike was dangerous. He wasn't even chained up. In Never Leave Me, he bit Andrew whilst triggered. He was a danger. I'm not saying kill him, but because of his trigger, that automatically makes him not the best fighter. When it comes to war, being the best fighters and warriors isn't always relevant. Sometimes you need strategic thinkers.

I'll add more later.

 

[white avenger]

Soul or no soul, it doesn't change the fact that Spike brutally attacked and sexually assaulted Buffy and the writers then completely glossed over it as if it was no more than a mere slap-fight. They dragged out her post-Heaven depression (but at least it was explored), they realistically showed her grief and struggle after her mother's death, they portrayed her struggle to move on after Angel (both times), yet they decided to ignore the sexual assault in favour of a romantic storyline. That is gross, vile, disgusting and a thousand other expletives I don't feel comfortable using on a public forum.

It spits in the faces of every sexual assault victim in the audience. It undermines what sexual assault victims go through. It trivialises rape and sexual assault. It furthers rape culture. It makes rape look like something that can be overcome easily. It sends the message that abuse is alright as long as the abuser makes a grand gesture of love to make up for it. It's appalling and gross.

Alright I'm done. I will say no more, I've made my point.

This would be true in the real world, or even in most fictional realms, but it was established in Season 2 that a vampire in possession of his soul retains the memories of his soulless self, but is, in effect, a totally separate individual and, therefore not responsible for the actions of his soulless counterpart. As I have said before, if it works that way for Angel, then it HAS to work for Spike as well. Therefore, despite any memories that Season 7 Spike might retain of attacking Buffy, despite the feelings of guilt and shame that he might feel, Season 7 Spike is no more guilty of trying to rape Buffy in "Seeing Red" than Season 3 Angel is guilty of killing Jenny Calendar.

That isn't any attempt by Joss or his team of writers to diminish or gloss over the severity of what happened in Season 6, They're just going by the guidelines for the show.

 

[Robb Stark]

This would be true in the real world, or even in most fictional realms, but it was established in Season 2 that a vampire in possession of his soul retains the memories of his soulless self, but is, in effect, a totally separate individual and, therefore not responsible for the actions of his soulless counterpart. As I have said before, if it works that way for Angel, then it HAS to work for Spike as well. Therefore, despite any memories that Season 7 Spike might retain of attacking Buffy, despite the feelings of guilt and shame that he might feel, Season 7 Spike is no more guilty of trying to rape Buffy in "Seeing Red" than Season 3 Angel is guilty of killing Jenny Calendar.

That isn't any attempt by Joss or his team of writers to diminish or gloss over the severity of what happened in Season 6, They're just going by the guidelines for the show.

Logically, you're right. The problem isn't the continuity of what happened. In the mind of the average viewer, not the super-fan, there isn't a whole lot of difference between Spike with a soul and Spike without a soul. He acts, relatively but with a few differences, the same. Compare Spike in S4 of BTVS with Spike of S5 of AtS and tell me they're radically different characters in the sense that Angel and Angelus are. They aren't. It's easier to see the line between Angel and Angelus, which is so clear, than it is for Spike with and without a soul, simply because the writers wanted to keep the elements of the character that made him popular. I get that.

Personally, because I care about the continuity and because I like Spike a lot, I don't hold him responsible, just as I don't for Angel. But to the average viewer, and to people who maybe aren't as big of a Spike fan as me, I very much understand the anger. It's not an indictment of the character, it's how the character is portrayed. To me, if they'd talked about and dealt with it at the beginning of S7, it would have been fine. I completely understand Buffy's point of view. Just like with Angel, she doesn't hold Spike accountable for the things he did without a soul, but the optics of it are horrible.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

itssmiletime,
you put that the amulet comes from WR&H.
Considering what it did, feeding the sun's light to all those vampires. With Holland Manners taking Angel (in the series Angel) in the lift to hell, infering that WR&H are the evil (to me). I doubt that they (WR&H) were anything more than a via. WR&H may have kept it hidden away somewhere, in a closet maybe; one marked never use.
I don't think that WR&H would have made it so my question still remains, where did it come from?
Was the place it came from anything to do with who/ what inspired the three men to start the slayer line?

 

[white avenger]

Logically, you're right. The problem isn't the continuity of what happened. In the mind of the average viewer, not the super-fan, there isn't a whole lot of difference between Spike with a soul and Spike without a soul. He acts, relatively but with a few differences, the same. Compare Spike in S4 of BTVS with Spike of S5 of AtS and tell me they're radically different characters in the sense that Angel and Angelus are. They aren't. It's easier to see the line between Angel and Angelus, which is so clear, than it is for Spike with and without a soul, simply because the writers wanted to keep the elements of the character that made him popular. I get that.

Personally, because I care about the continuity and because I like Spike a lot, I don't hold him responsible, just as I don't for Angel. But to the average viewer, and to people who maybe aren't as big of a Spike fan as me, I very much understand the anger. It's not an indictment of the character, it's how the character is portrayed. To me, if they'd talked about and dealt with it at the beginning of S7, it would have been fine. I completely understand Buffy's point of view. Just like with Angel, she doesn't hold Spike accountable for the things he did without a soul, but the optics of it are horrible.

This is one of the problems that comes up when talking about Spike of comparing him to Angel. There is such a huge difference between Angelus and Angel that is not isn't just easy to differentiate between the two characters, it's downright difficult to NOT see the change. With Spike, however, it isn't that hard, because from the very first, he was a work in progress. We don't see that radical, black and white change between Spike of Season 6 and Season 7, because there really isn't that big a change. Compare Spike from his first appearance in Season 2 with Spike in Season 7, and you DO see that change, though still not to the extent that we see with Angelus and Angel. It was established almost from the very beginning that Spike was different from other vampires. He could feel love, and had a sense of loyalty, specifically to Dru at first, and later to Buffy, though there are a lot of fans who will call his feelings for her more obsession than love. I disagree, but what else is new?

There are those who somehow accuse him of not really changing, because Spike with a soul gets over his suffering, guilt ridden post ensouling phase faster than Angel. or at least that is how it appears at first glance. It is, however, a major part of Angel's story line that he basically went through stages of alley dwelling, rat feeding guilt, relieved by periods of reclusive "normalcy," as we saw in the various flashbacks, but the truth is, throughout all that time, he was just basically adrift, with no particular goal, content to brood in the dark abd wallow in the guilt that he felt for all of the death and mayhem that he had caused prior to the curse. Interestingly, he didn't really seem to feel that he was two separate people at all, but the same guy with a belatedly realized sense of guilt and the need to suffer.

Spike, just like Angel, was overwhelmed with guilt and shame once he regained his own soul, possibly even more so than Angel, though we never see that much of newly ensouled Angel to actually tell, and part of Spike's early insanity would have to be attributed to the First Evil.

So, what finally gave Angel the inspiration th become a better man, to actively try and, in some way atone for the things that he had done? He saw a 15 year old girl coming out of a school building and fell instantly in love. It was Buffy's belief and support, coupled with his love for her, that finally, truly completed the metamorphosis from Angelus to Angel. Before that, he had the soul, but it only served to keep him from being evil. It Buffy to inspire him to be good.

Well, guess what. That's pretty much exactly what happened to Spike. He got his soul, but it only served as a source of shame and torture until he is encouraged and believed in by the woman who he was in love with: Buffy Summers.

Basically,Angel and Spike were both inspired by Buffy to make a difference, and to be better men. For both men, their turning point was when they were told by Buffy that she believed in them. Spike just got there a lot sooner after regaining his soul than Angel ha.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

a totally separate individual

In other words, Spike/Buffy never happened because it wasn't Spike, it was some other separate individual. Spikeus, I guess?

Now, that's interesting.

 

[EffyStonem]

This would be true in the real world, or even in most fictional realms, but it was established in Season 2 that a vampire in possession of his soul retains the memories of his soulless self, but is, in effect, a totally separate individual and, therefore not responsible for the actions of his soulless counterpart. As I have said before, if it works that way for Angel, then it HAS to work for Spike as well. Therefore, despite any memories that Season 7 Spike might retain of attacking Buffy, despite the feelings of guilt and shame that he might feel, Season 7 Spike is no more guilty of trying to rape Buffy in "Seeing Red" than Season 3 Angel is guilty of killing Jenny Calendar.

But Angel is held responsible for his actions in Season 2. Giles refuses to trust him and obviously holds Angel accountable for Jenny's death (as well he should), Xander never forgives Angel for the Season 2 emotional trauma conga line, Buffy herself calls Angel out for what he did to her over Season 3 "I know everything you did because you did it to me". She and the entire Scooby gang struggle to accept Angel back, and even though Buffy ultimately forgives him for Season 2, the rest of the group don't ever truly allow him back into the Scooby gang. Therefore Spike must be held accountable for his actions but he's not.

That isn't an attempt by Joss or his team of writers to diminish or gloss over the severity of what happened in Season 6

Yes, it is. They never allow Buffy to confront Spike with what she went through at his hands. They make it look like what Spike did to her was acceptable. None of the Scoobies ever confront Spike about the sexual assault. Giles, who was so adamant about Buffy not getting hurt by Angel again, never says anything to her about the dangerous nature of her relationship with Spike.

Regardless of the genre or continuity of a show, if the writers decide to put sexual assault in the story then they have to be prepared to deal with the responsibility that comes with going down such a path. Joss Whedon and his staff ignored this responsibility and sent a horrendous and disrespectful message, all because they wanted Spike and Buffy to be together.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]


In other words, Spike/Buffy never happened because it wasn't Spike, it was some other separate individual. Spikeus, I guess?

Now, that's interesting.

I've been suggesting that we refer to pre Season 7 Spike as "Spikeus"ever since the season first aired, just to avoid confusion

 

[Robb Stark]

This is one of the problems that comes up when talking about Spike of comparing him to Angel. There is such a huge difference between Angelus and Angel that is not isn't just easy to differentiate between the two characters, it's downright difficult to NOT see the change. With Spike, however, it isn't that hard, because from the very first, he was a work in progress. We don't see that radical, black and white change between Spike of Season 6 and Season 7, because there really isn't that big a change. Compare Spike from his first appearance in Season 2 with Spike in Season 7, and you DO see that change, though still not to the extent that we see with Angelus and Angel. It was established almost from the very beginning that Spike was different from other vampires. He could feel love, and had a sense of loyalty, specifically to Dru at first, and later to Buffy, though there are a lot of fans who will call his feelings for her more obsession than love. I disagree, but what else is new?

There are those who somehow accuse him of not really changing, because Spike with a soul gets over his suffering, guilt ridden post ensouling phase faster than Angel. or at least that is how it appears at first glance. It is, however, a major part of Angel's story line that he basically went through stages of alley dwelling, rat feeding guilt, relieved by periods of reclusive "normalcy," as we saw in the various flashbacks, but the truth is, throughout all that time, he was just basically adrift, with no particular goal, content to brood in the dark abd wallow in the guilt that he felt for all of the death and mayhem that he had caused prior to the curse. Interestingly, he didn't really seem to feel that he was two separate people at all, but the same guy with a belatedly realized sense of guilt and the need to suffer.

Spike, just like Angel, was overwhelmed with guilt and shame once he regained his own soul, possibly even more so than Angel, though we never see that much of newly ensouled Angel to actually tell, and part of Spike's early insanity would have to be attributed to the First Evil.

So, what finally gave Angel the inspiration th become a better man, to actively try and, in some way atone for the things that he had done? He saw a 15 year old girl coming out of a school building and fell instantly in love. It was Buffy's belief and support, coupled with his love for her, that finally, truly completed the metamorphosis from Angelus to Angel. Before that, he had the soul, but it only served to keep him from being evil. It Buffy to inspire him to be good.

Well, guess what. That's pretty much exactly what happened to Spike. He got his soul, but it only served as a source of shame and torture until he is encouraged and believed in by the woman who he was in love with: Buffy Summers.

Basically,Angel and Spike were both inspired by Buffy to make a difference, and to be better men. For both men, their turning point was when they were told by Buffy that she believed in them. Spike just got there a lot sooner after regaining his soul than Angel ha.

I agree with everything you wrote here. I completely agree. But it just leads to my point. The writers went with what they'd established as vampire continuity, but they didn't think about the ramifications that might have on people who weren't super-fans of the show or had gone through (or seen those they care about go through) sexual assault. The fact that Spike isn't as emotionally wiped as Angel was when he regained his soul does make sense. Spike has Buffy to go to. Spike has seen Angel deal with the exact same issues. It makes perfect sense that Spike is able to come to terms with himself in the period of time that he did.

All of that tracks. It all makes sense. But it doesn't mean anything in terms of the implicit message the arc sends out. No matter how much it meshes with the continuity, what the audience is shown is a guy tries to rape a girl, doesn't change all that much in terms of what we see, and she forgives him. He makes a grand gesture and things are magically wiped away.

I even think they could have maintained the same storyline, but that certain elements could have been significantly retooled to respect the fan base a bit more and show a more responsible message. Spike could have raised the issue himself, could have talked about it at length, about how evil it was, and Buffy could have reciprocated. That at least acknowledges the problem, shows that they're dealing with it and establishes that Spike really is different. That's essentially, with a few differences, how they dealt with Angel getting his soul back.

I hope I'm making sense. Am I?

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION]

None of the Scoobies ever confront Spike about the sexual assault.

Dawn does.

DAWN: Spike. You sleep, right? You. Vampires. You sleep.
SPIKE: Yeah. What's your point, niblet?
DAWN: Well, I can't take you in a fight or anything, even with a chip in your head. But you do sleep. If you hurt my sister at all... touch her... you're gonna wake up on fire.

Also, both Dawn and Xander confront Buffy about Spike and mention the rape attempt multiple times. They try, they really do, it's just when it comes to pretty corpses Buffy doesn't exactly think with her brain.

But Angel is held responsible for his actions in Season 2.

Angel is responsible and so is Spike. I think that ultimately, soul is meaningless.