Change of Opinions

I forgot about that exchange between Dawn and Spike, I loved that. Thanks for reminding me.

I only recall Xander mentioning the attempted rape once in Season 7. That's really not enough to satisfy me. And I have issues with the fact that the Scoobies seem perfectly fine with Buffy spending large amounts of time with Spike after what he did to her.
 
Angel is responsible and so is Spike. I think that ultimately, soul is meaningless.

But...the soul radically changes the behavior between Angel and Angelus, and Spike and...um...Spike-us, although in far more subtle ways. Pretty much Angel's entire life is defined by the presence of his soul (as opposed to what the demon inside him would be doing if it didn't exist). With the soul, Angel is a hero who has saved the world multiple times. Without it, the man is gone and the vampire is all that's left, who acts pretty different than Angel.

So really, how is that meaningless? How does that make Angel and Spike responsible?
 
Blaze
Blaze
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I forgot about that exchange between Dawn and Spike, I loved that. Thanks for reminding me.

I only recall Xander mentioning the attempted rape once in Season 7. That's really not enough to satisfy me. And I have issues with the fact that the Scoobies seem perfectly fine with Buffy spending large amounts of time with Spike after what he did to her.

Neither Giles nor Xander ever completely trusted Angel again after Season 2, and the same can can be said for Spike after Season 6, assuming that they either one ever truly trusted him in the first place. That speech by Xander about never forgetting that he was just a "soulless thing and a monster" in Season 6 pretty much sums up what they felt, and all of Buffy's insistence that Spike with a soul was a different man did little if anything to change that.

The fact that there wasn't a lot of objection to Buffy spending so much time with Spike is probably due more than anything to that same insistence by Buffy that he WAS a good man, and was trustworthy. Also, it made the most sense, and I'm sure that this fact never escaped the others' notice, that, if Spike ever DID prove Buffy wrong, the best possible way to contain that kind of power would be to have someone with as much, or even more power, namely Buffy, close at hand.
 
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]


OK, so what does the soul actually do? What does it change? Intentions are impossible to verify, let's look at the actions. Angelus went on a rampage against those Buffy cared about to break her spirit...and so did Angel. Angelus wanted to end the world as we know it...and so did Angel. Spikeus fought to protect the world...and so did Spike. Both Angel and Angelus seek power, both Spike and Spikeus seek the love and acceptance of the woman they're obsessed with. Hey, maybe there's just Spike and Angel and soul or lack thereof only amplifies, like drugs for instance, what's already there? I think that without the evil in Angel there's no Angelus. That's why Angel is responsible. Most vampires don't torture their victims, most vampires don't try to destroy the world. Angelus does because deep down Angel is a one particularly sick bastard.

It's Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde basically.
 
About that 'rape' scene.
We never saw the actual attack so what we say is pure conjecture.
Why did Buffy spend so much time with Spike after that? Spike's reasoning for confronting Buffy was to get her to admit the feelings he said she had for him. And in the show Buffy has been shown not to reveal her feeling for a person. So did she know that Spike was right about that.
About Xander and Giles knocking Spike and Angel; Angel supplied the Amulet and Spike wore the Amulet, good thing there wasn't another episode for someone to tell Giles and Xander that they 'technically' saved the world.
 
About that 'rape' scene.
We never saw the actual attack so what we say is pure conjecture.
Um, yes we did. We saw the whole brutal assault on screen in Seeing Red. I won't post the actual scene because it is extremely triggering, but here is the transcript of the rape scene:

SPIKE: (whispers) Let yourself feel it.

He moves forward, puts his hands on her waist, pulls her toward him. She resists.

BUFFY: No....

SPIKE: You love me.

BUFFY: Ow, no, stop it.

They struggle, Spike trying to kiss and grope Buffy, Buffy trying to push him away. Sound of fabric ripping. Spike's hand is inside Buffy's robe.

BUFFY: Spike, no - ow - what are you do-

She loses her balance and falls backward toward the tub. Her hand grabs the shower curtain for balance, but it rips off the shower rod and Buffy falls down, hitting her back against the side of the tub.

BUFFY: (yelling) Ow!

She falls to the floor beside the tub, groaning in pain. Spike gets on top of her, holding her down. He grabs her face and tries to kiss her as she continues trying to fight him off.

SPIKE: Let it go. Let yourself love me.

He continues saying similar things as Buffy continues saying "no" and "stop" and "ow." Spike pulls at her clothing.

Buffy gets onto her stomach and tries to pull herself toward the door, but Spike is on top of her, holding her down, pulling her arms away from the door as she continues yelling and protesting.

Close on Spike wearing a determined and wild expression.

Open on the same scene, overhead shot of Spike straddling Buffy on the bathroom floor. Buffy continues struggling.

BUFFY: (yelling) No, stop it!

SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...

Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.

Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again. Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over, pins her hands to the floor.

BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...

SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...

BUFFY: Please don't do this...

SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.

He rips the front of her robe open. Buffy screams and struggles against him as he tries to get her robe off.

BUFFY: Stop!!!

She gives him one last shove with her Slayer-strength and Spike goes flying backward, crashing into the sink and the wall. Buffy gets to her feet, holding her robe closed with one hand. It's torn so that one of her shoulders is exposed.
That is sexual assault, I don't know how you can't see that.
 
Blaze
Blaze
[No message]
If the soul doesn't matter, than how come it is that we never saw a good vampire (and I mean a truly good vampire that doesn't do any bad), and how come we never saw a souled vampire that only does bad?

I agree that personality does affect who you are as a vampire, as we saw with Angel that was a prick as Liam and became super evil as Angelus, and Spike was pretty much a good hearted wimp as William, and pretty much stayed that way as a vamp, but the soul, although it doesn't change all of the personality, does change a lot. Everyone has it in them to be evil, the soul is what keeps you from not being actually doing it.
 
OK, so what does the soul actually do? What does it change? Intentions are impossible to verify, let's look at the actions. Angelus went on a rampage against those Buffy cared about to break her spirit...and so did Angel.

No he didn't.

Angelus wanted to end the world as we know it...and so did Angel.

No he didn't.

Spikeus fought to protect the world...and so did Spike.

Not really the same. Spike-us wanted to get laid and and be with Buffy. He took actions to facilitate that which happened to mesh with Buffy's interests. In S2 he allied with Buffy because he hated Angel, which he makes no secret of, not out of any particularly altruistic sentiment.

In S7 and beyond he's doing the right thing because it's the right thing. Because he's a good person.

Both Angel and Angelus seek power, both Spike and Spikeus seek the love and acceptance of the woman they're obsessed with. Hey, maybe there's just Spike and Angel and soul or lack thereof only amplifies, like drugs for instance, what's already there?

Maybe. But desiring power or love aren't "good" or "evil" traits. They're common among just about everyone. You'll find plenty of good people and plenty of horrendous people who want more power than they have and want the affection of those they care about. They're very general traits.

I think that without the evil in Angel there's no Angelus. That's why Angel is responsible. Most vampires don't torture their victims, most vampires don't try to destroy the world. Angelus does because deep down Angel is a one particularly sick bastard.

It's Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde basically.

But that doesn't track with what we're shown in the series. The demon is clearly shown to be an invasionary force to the body. The personality of the host body influences the demon, but it's not the "person" committing whatever it is the demon does. Yes, there are aspects of Angel which are clearly dialed up to 11 when Angelus surfaces, aspects which are greatly twisted, but that doesn't make it "Angel's fault". I mean hell, the series establishes clearly that Angel and Angelus have unique memory sets from one another. If Angel is really Angelus, then why does he fight for good? Why does he turn Buffy away in "IWRY", if not to save her when he quite literally has all he wanted in the palm of his hand? If the soul doesn't matter, as you said, then that makes zero sense.

"Angel" is consistently shown to be one of the absolute best people in the Buffyverse. He's probably the single most self-sacrificing hero there is. He's shown, again and again, that he's a hero who does whatever it takes, regardless of personal cost, to help others. And it wasn't guilt that triggered that in him, it was Buffy. How does that track if he and "Angelus" are really the same, and the soul makes no difference?

(BTW, I did think you're chart was pretty awesome though...)
 
EffyStonem,
I can see that we won't agree on the fact that there was no actual rape scene.
But that scene on the DVD's I have doesn't show it.
Aggravated assault or sexual assault yes, but nothing else. I don't think the actors or the crew would have wanted anything quite as risque on the show.
As far as I'm concerned I won't say anything more on the subject.
 
EffyStonem,
I can see that we won't agree on the fact that there was no actual rape scene.
But that scene on the DVD's I have doesn't show it.
I honestly don't understand how you can watch the scene in Seeing Red and not see it as attempted rape. Seriously.

Aggravated assault or sexual assault yes, but nothing else. I don't think the actors or the crew would have wanted anything quite as risque on the show.
Joss and other writers' on the show have referenced the attack as attempted rape. It's not aggravated assault, it is sexual assault, and I'm sorry, but the fact that you are refusing to admit to what it truly is makes me really scared as to what you must think does and does not constitute rape and/or sexual assault.
 
I honestly don't understand how you can watch the scene in Seeing Red and not see it as attempted rape. Seriously.


Joss and other writers' on the show have referenced the attack as attempted rape. It's not aggravated assault, it is sexual assault.

This.

Joss and James Marsters have referred to this scene numerous times as being an attempted rape. The show references it as an attempted rape in Villains when Xander calls Spike "Mr. Attempted Rape." And then there's the actual script of the scene that very clearly outlines Spike's actions as an attempt to force sexual intercourse on Buffy.

It was written as an attempted rape. It was shot as an attempted rape. It is an attempted rape.
 
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]
No he didn't.

Angel, season 8:
You didn't kill her. That's been done to little effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainty.

Angel, season 2:
So you didn't kill her then. Spike, my boy, you *really* don't get it! Do you? You tried to kill her, but you couldn't. Force won't get it done. You gotta work from the inside.

No he didn't.

Angel was the big bad in season 8. He tried to destroy the world, this isn't really debatable, is it? Universe garbage, cosmic nonsense, it's still Angel who pulls the strings and gives out orders.

In S7 and beyond he's doing the right thing because it's the right thing. Because he's a good person.

I disagree. I think that he's still obsessed with Buffy. He will follow her example for as long as he believes that he can be with her again. After that he'll probably lose his soul once more.

If Angel is really Angelus, then why does he fight for good?

Power and antiquated ideas of masculinity. Also, massive daddy issues.

Why does he turn Buffy away in "IWRY", if not to save her when he quite literally has all he wanted in the palm of his hand?

Because that's not what he truly wants.

You told me I wasn't a man. You told me I was nothing. And I believed you. You said I'd never amount to anything. Well, you were wrong. You see, father? I have made something out of myself, after all.

Angel has daddy issues. He still wants to make something out of himself like a good daddy's little boy. Seriously. Angel is a boy who wants to be a man, problem is, his idea of what a man is, is outdated and completely ridiculous.

He's probably the single most self-sacrificing hero there is.

I don't value self-sacrifice. To me a self-sacrificing hero is basically those guys. It's just fanaticism. I like my heroes happy, I mean, how can you help others if you can't even help yourself?

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]
I mean a truly good vampire that doesn't do any bad

How many humans like that do you personally know? I've never met one.
 
[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION], I know plenty of people that are "truly" good. To me being truly good doesn't mean you don't make mistake or take a bad decision. It doesn't mean you've never hurt anyone in your life either. Being good simply means that you try your best to BE the best you can, while having empathy and remorse if you've wronged someone. It simply means in the balance of it all, you are more of a good person than you are a bad person. Vampires without souls could never achieve being truly good as they kill, manipulate, abuse, and none of them has ever shown to give one dam about it. They ARE evil beings, which brings me back to my point, soul does matter.
 
Angel, season 2:

So you didn't kill her then. Spike, my boy, you *really* don't get it! Do you? You tried to kill her, but you couldn't. Force won't get it done. You gotta work from the inside.

That's an Angelus quote, not an Angel one, which is the exact thing I'm arguing, that they aren't the same.

Angel was the big bad in season 8. He tried to destroy the world, this isn't really debatable, is it? Universe garbage, cosmic nonsense, it's still Angel who pulls the strings and gives out orders.

It is debatable. We had a whole thread about it. I think you and I reached the conclusion that it didn't make any sense, even if we differed on the intention of the plan.

I disagree. I think that he's still obsessed with Buffy. He will follow her example for as long as he believes that he can be with her again. After that he'll probably lose his soul once more.

That isn't supported by what canon has shown though. Spike has zero interaction with Buffy over the course of S5 of AtS, or at least, not until "TGIQ". Why does he fight with Angel, for good, then? Buffy has nothing to do with it in S5.

Power and antiquated ideas of masculinity. Also, massive daddy issues.

Completely disagree, but that's fine. I have a sense that this isn't an area we'll locate common ground.

Because that's not what he truly wants.

Again, this isn't supported by what we've seen in the series. She is, quite literally, the cause of perfect happiness for Angel. She's shown in S8 to be his cosmic counterpart for universal evolution. He tells her directly that he's never been able to find peace or contentment with anyone or anything else. It's very clear that Buffy is what Angel really wants.

Angel has daddy issues. He still wants to make something out of himself like a good daddy's little boy. Seriously. Angel is a boy who wants to be a man, problem is, his idea of what a man is, is outdated and completely ridiculous.

This doesn't follow what we're shown in the series. Angel does have some parental issues, yes, but by the end of S5 they're clearly resolved. It is clearly shown to be Buffy that causes him to essentially go from a drifting existence to becoming a hero who fights for a purpose. His Father has nothing to do with that.

I don't value self-sacrifice. To me a self-sacrificing hero is basically those guys. It's just fanaticism. I like my heroes happy, I mean, how can you help others if you can't even help yourself?

That's fair, it's a personal opinion which is probably at the core of our disagreement. However, the fact that fiction in general typically portrays self-sacrifice as a highly positive trait among the protagonists should count for something. It's been that way for a long, long time.
 
Blaze
Blaze
Couldn't have said it better myself!
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]
Again, this isn't supported by what we've seen in the series. She is, quite literally, the cause of perfect happiness for Angel. She's shown in S8 to be his cosmic counterpart for universal evolution. He tells her directly that he's never been able to find peace or contentment with anyone or anything else. It's very clear that Buffy is what Angel really wants.

Then why aren't they together? Why did he dump her? Twice, basically, in "The Prom" and then in "I Will Remember You"? Angel had a choice to make. He didn't choose Buffy and life with her is supposedly what he truly wants?

I don't buy it, it doesn't make any sense.

I think that Angel wants power, it's more important to him than both Buffy and his own humanity.
 
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Then why aren't they together? Why did he dump her? Twice, basically, in "The Prom" and then in "I Will Remember You"? Angel had a choice to make. He didn't choose Buffy and life with her is supposedly what he truly wants?

I don't buy it, it doesn't make any sense.

I think that Angel wants power, it's more important to him than both Buffy and his own humanity.

He leaves in The Prom because Joyce had advised him and Mayor Wilkins had convinced him that having a mortal for a significant other was not a good idea for an immortal.

In IWRY, he realises that he would be a danger to Buffy if she had to constantly worry about protecting him.
 
EVIL UU
EVIL UU
Committed Angel is not.
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