So one thing playing in my head from the rewatch was the character journeys on both shows.
Ill do Angel first as its fresh in my head from the rewatch but its still a mixed bag of both great and non existent.
Angel - The show is about him and he is so different not just from how he was on Buffy as the rather boring Love interest but also at the start of Ats where he was stoic action guy who beat up bad guys and saved good looking women. That said what he developed into was a hypocritical arsehole. Take Peace Out and Home. In that he talks about free will. Only for then to quite literally mind rape a family to put his son with them and do the same with his friends and in his own words taking an executive decision. Thats taken another level by Not Fade Away. And if you count the Season 8 Comics His actions as Twilight too. Its great to watch though its not the development B/A shippers probably want.
Doyle - originally meant to be Whistler (who I never liked) he was meant to be guide and mentor which (didn't work) instead morphed into Angels friend and confidant and Angel became his mentor which worked better with a 250 year old being. Although only on the show a small time he made a huge impact as character thanks to GQ peformance.
Cordelia- She's all over the place. Until Doyles death, besides Greenwalts liking for her, I was wondering what she was doing on the show as she added nothing. After his death she slipped into that friend role. It basically culminated with the S1 finale and her decision to help people. After that though.. In S2 she was an after thought in the first half and in the 2nd part she was literally an object in a bikini that Angel needed to rescue (the writers did this straight after mocking said trope!)
In S3 they flirted with Cangel but never pulled the trigger then made her Saint Cordy (which they retconned in S4) and by this time the character was done. Very apparent as the best episodes of Wesley betrayal of Angel she wasn't even in and it felt like the show had moved on without her. Also with Greenwalt leaving the writing was probably on the wall for her character anyway as Joss was lukewarm at best.
S4 she was in 3 episodes with Amnesia and she slept with Angels son before Jasmine was woken up.
She got a decent send off in S5 but like I said her character was long done by this point.
Wesley- He had the best character arc on either Buffy or Angel. From how he started as a straw man on Buffy to how he ends in NFA is a delight.His relationship with Lilah was also a delight to watch. The creepy obsession he has with Fred is disturbing but watchable in S4. The issue is in S5 where suddenly its genuine love (they're literally only together at best for a week or so) which I just don't buy and it felt like it was really only introduced just to set up his Man pain, I think the writing could've remembered that rather than just expecting the audience to go with it.
But otherwise yeah the best character arc on this show and Buffy.
Fred- Amy Ackers peformance was excellent but the character itself was a waste of space. During S3 they had her do the cute Nerdy girl technobabble (which had already gotten old on Buffy) and also normal parents and well thats it. Oh she also apparently eats a lot even though its blatantly obvious the actress doesn't. The relationship with Gunn has no real narrative interest (though it could've) and is written in the most sickly way possible. In S4 any agency is stopped by her not murdering the Professor, which is only remarked on once but never acted or plays any role in the season. She's then just a possession for Gunn and Wes to fight over and the writers don't even attempt to give a reason as to why she'd join W&H. In S5 she dates Knox before she dates Wesley and then she dies and well thats it. As a character she was completely pointless. Which is only highlighted even more by Illyria.
Illyria - She's only in the show for just 7 episodes and a delight to watch in everyone of them. A fantastic character thats played magnificently by Amy Acker, I love when she's pretending to be Fred then immediately is Illyria and you can tell by her movements. They got the right balance right of Imperious and hard and sympathetic at the same time as she tries to exist in a different world than one she ruled in. Off all the characters I was most interested in post NFA, its her.
Lorne - I liked Andy Hallet and I liked Lorne but he should've been kept as reoccurring not a regular. Like Fred he had no reason to join W&H. I feel bad for him how Angel used him.
Gunn - The character with the most interesting story and potential, who somehow the writers had no clue how to write or what to do with ! The guy whose a social activist on the streets decides to abandon his people and go work for Angel ! Why ??? The writers never bother to give a reason. The character essentially becomes a glorified extra. Except when the writers give him cringe dialogue such as the Reconstruction speech in No Place like Plrtzz grb. In S3 they put him in a relationship with Fred, primarily just as foil to break Wesley from the group which was almost Tara/Willow levels in its writing. In S4 he fights with Wes over Fred and well thats it, even the fact he murdered a guy is remarked but never really acted upon for the character. Then in S5 he does have some good stuff and his end where he helps Anne before as he's dying about to go down swinging in the Alley is well done but it can't disguise the characters unused potential.
Spike - While it was a delight to see him, his character arc was done on Buffy "No you don't but thanks for saying it" . There was some good stuff in Damage "So where we once upon a time" but thats it and honestly it did feel like they wrote him a bit stupider as they didn't want to overshadow Angel, which David Fury kind of admitted. Now there was talk of Spike movie but it was also going to feature Illyria and Willow so honestly how much would it been about Spike.
In the S8 comics he doesn't show up until the end with a Bug space ship to essentially just provide transportation.
Anyway thats my thoughts on each of the characters, Ill try and do Buffy next.
@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @Joan the Vampire Slayer @thetopher @silvermoon @DeepBlueJoy Id be interested in your thoughts on my thoughts on the characters
Ill do Angel first as its fresh in my head from the rewatch but its still a mixed bag of both great and non existent.
Angel - The show is about him and he is so different not just from how he was on Buffy as the rather boring Love interest but also at the start of Ats where he was stoic action guy who beat up bad guys and saved good looking women. That said what he developed into was a hypocritical arsehole. Take Peace Out and Home. In that he talks about free will. Only for then to quite literally mind rape a family to put his son with them and do the same with his friends and in his own words taking an executive decision. Thats taken another level by Not Fade Away. And if you count the Season 8 Comics His actions as Twilight too. Its great to watch though its not the development B/A shippers probably want.
Doyle - originally meant to be Whistler (who I never liked) he was meant to be guide and mentor which (didn't work) instead morphed into Angels friend and confidant and Angel became his mentor which worked better with a 250 year old being. Although only on the show a small time he made a huge impact as character thanks to GQ peformance.
Cordelia- She's all over the place. Until Doyles death, besides Greenwalts liking for her, I was wondering what she was doing on the show as she added nothing. After his death she slipped into that friend role. It basically culminated with the S1 finale and her decision to help people. After that though.. In S2 she was an after thought in the first half and in the 2nd part she was literally an object in a bikini that Angel needed to rescue (the writers did this straight after mocking said trope!)
In S3 they flirted with Cangel but never pulled the trigger then made her Saint Cordy (which they retconned in S4) and by this time the character was done. Very apparent as the best episodes of Wesley betrayal of Angel she wasn't even in and it felt like the show had moved on without her. Also with Greenwalt leaving the writing was probably on the wall for her character anyway as Joss was lukewarm at best.
S4 she was in 3 episodes with Amnesia and she slept with Angels son before Jasmine was woken up.
She got a decent send off in S5 but like I said her character was long done by this point.
Wesley- He had the best character arc on either Buffy or Angel. From how he started as a straw man on Buffy to how he ends in NFA is a delight.His relationship with Lilah was also a delight to watch. The creepy obsession he has with Fred is disturbing but watchable in S4. The issue is in S5 where suddenly its genuine love (they're literally only together at best for a week or so) which I just don't buy and it felt like it was really only introduced just to set up his Man pain, I think the writing could've remembered that rather than just expecting the audience to go with it.
But otherwise yeah the best character arc on this show and Buffy.
Fred- Amy Ackers peformance was excellent but the character itself was a waste of space. During S3 they had her do the cute Nerdy girl technobabble (which had already gotten old on Buffy) and also normal parents and well thats it. Oh she also apparently eats a lot even though its blatantly obvious the actress doesn't. The relationship with Gunn has no real narrative interest (though it could've) and is written in the most sickly way possible. In S4 any agency is stopped by her not murdering the Professor, which is only remarked on once but never acted or plays any role in the season. She's then just a possession for Gunn and Wes to fight over and the writers don't even attempt to give a reason as to why she'd join W&H. In S5 she dates Knox before she dates Wesley and then she dies and well thats it. As a character she was completely pointless. Which is only highlighted even more by Illyria.
Illyria - She's only in the show for just 7 episodes and a delight to watch in everyone of them. A fantastic character thats played magnificently by Amy Acker, I love when she's pretending to be Fred then immediately is Illyria and you can tell by her movements. They got the right balance right of Imperious and hard and sympathetic at the same time as she tries to exist in a different world than one she ruled in. Off all the characters I was most interested in post NFA, its her.
Lorne - I liked Andy Hallet and I liked Lorne but he should've been kept as reoccurring not a regular. Like Fred he had no reason to join W&H. I feel bad for him how Angel used him.
Gunn - The character with the most interesting story and potential, who somehow the writers had no clue how to write or what to do with ! The guy whose a social activist on the streets decides to abandon his people and go work for Angel ! Why ??? The writers never bother to give a reason. The character essentially becomes a glorified extra. Except when the writers give him cringe dialogue such as the Reconstruction speech in No Place like Plrtzz grb. In S3 they put him in a relationship with Fred, primarily just as foil to break Wesley from the group which was almost Tara/Willow levels in its writing. In S4 he fights with Wes over Fred and well thats it, even the fact he murdered a guy is remarked but never really acted upon for the character. Then in S5 he does have some good stuff and his end where he helps Anne before as he's dying about to go down swinging in the Alley is well done but it can't disguise the characters unused potential.
Spike - While it was a delight to see him, his character arc was done on Buffy "No you don't but thanks for saying it" . There was some good stuff in Damage "So where we once upon a time" but thats it and honestly it did feel like they wrote him a bit stupider as they didn't want to overshadow Angel, which David Fury kind of admitted. Now there was talk of Spike movie but it was also going to feature Illyria and Willow so honestly how much would it been about Spike.
In the S8 comics he doesn't show up until the end with a Bug space ship to essentially just provide transportation.
Anyway thats my thoughts on each of the characters, Ill try and do Buffy next.
@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @Joan the Vampire Slayer @thetopher @silvermoon @DeepBlueJoy Id be interested in your thoughts on my thoughts on the characters
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