Characters: big flaws vs. little flaws

[thetopher]

And Dracula, in the Buffyverse, is plainly depicted as most certainly NOT fitting the pattern as established there.

I ws simply refering to the fact that the Dracula/Buffy scene shows vampire bites CAN= pleasure if the vampire wants them to. (Like Graduation Day, like Liam/William being turned)
This only tends to happen when either the vampire is trying to turn somebody, or if they're in business to drain some blood and let the human live afterwards- like in Riley's circumstance.

 

[white avenger]

I ws simply refering to the fact that the Dracula/Buffy scene shows vampire bites CAN= pleasure if the vampire wants them to. (Like Graduation Day, like Liam/William being turned)
This only tends to happen when either the vampire is trying to turn somebody, or if they're in business to drain some blood and let the human live afterwards- like in Riley's circumstance.

Okay, it seems that, after a little searching on Youtube, I'm going to, at least partially, agree that there can, indeed, be cases where a vampire's bite can be pleasurable, or at least the anticipation of the bite. While I still don't see it at all with Buffy and Angel, clearly, in this video (it's toward the end, so be patient)

Giles, at least, seems to be about to succumb to the charms of, not Dracula, but his two brides/daughters/girlfriends or whatever they are. Still, I am not really sure that it's the bite itself that gives the thrill as much as it is some sort of hypnotic suggestion or thrall that's turning the trick, something that we've never seen Angel display or make any claim to having. In Riley's case, like Giles' before, I still think that it depends more on the mental attitude of the person being bitten than the actual bite, whether due to the victim's imagination (Giles probably had a fantasy about him and two beautiful women doing something naughty and probably illegal in most states) or some sort of thrall. That would also explain Buffy's reaction to Angel's bite, brought on, not by the act itself, but by her highly overblown school girl crush on her imagined perfect Harlequin Romance lover (which infuriates Bangels whenever I point it out) than any pleasure in having the blood sucked out of her veins.

 

[thetopher]

Oh, that's right. I forgot you were a Spuffy. It explains your blinkered inability to see an utterly sexually charged scene just because the two main protagonists have their clothes ON. 😛

Personally I thought that Joss made the whole biting scene pretty blatent- so blatant in fact that he was sorta worried about the sensers cutting it, but they were too concerned about students blowing up a school to notice.

'School girl crush'. Doesn't really explain why she's still very much attracted to him in S7 when Spike has been giving her puppy-dog eyes all year. 😉

Anyway, its nice to know that we both agree that I'm right...at least about one thing. 🙂

 

[janas]

@white avenger The GD2 Bite scene was written to be an erotic scene.

"That was one of our thinner metaphors. That, ah, you know, that was really pretty close to the surface. But you know, those two people, you know, were so much in love that I thought it was a genuinely erotic scene, and not, you know, exploitive." Joss on the GD2 Bite scene.

And SMG has acted it as such.

"When he bites her and she's writhing on the floor, in her full orgasm she breaks the table. They missed it. The most erotic thing I've ever seen on TV, and the censors missed it completely." SMG on the GD2 Bite scene.

 

[white avenger]

Oh, that's right. I forgot you were a Spuffy. It explains your blinkered inability to see an utterly sexually charged scene just because the two main protagonists have their clothes ON. 😛

Anyway, its nice to know that we both agree that I'm right...at least about one thing. 🙂

I'll let the Spuffy comment slide, since I did mention that other ship first, but if you reread my post, all that I said was that I partially agree with the idea that the anticipation of a vampire's bite, in the Buffyverse, MIGHT, under certain circumstances, result in an erotic response from the person being bitten. The presence or absence of clothing it totally irrelevant.

Giles was a mature man with obvious erotic fantasies involving himself and two very willing young ladies. Lord only knows what Riley might have been fantasizing about. Whatever their fantasies might have been, most likely neither of them had ever been bitten by a vampire before. Buffy had, and all that I saw from her expression, regardless of what Joss or anyone else might imagine happened there, was a young girl who had already been killed once by exactly the same thing that Angel was doing to her, quite likely wondering if Ol' Broodie was going to be able to stop in time, which he very nearly didn't.

I might also point out that I find it ironic, of course, that the same people who see this scene as wildly erotic think that the balcony scene between Spike and Buffy in Season 6 is disgusting and degrading, but that would only serve to drag the discussion off subject, so I'll just keep that thought to myself.

(And, please, take that in the spirit that it was given, since I don't know how to add little smiley faces in my posts)

 

[janas]

@white avenger When you click to reply to a post, in the toolbar just next to icon "insert image" there is an smile icon, there are all smilies.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy had, and all that I saw from her expression, regardless of what Joss or anyone else might imagine happened there, was a young girl who had already been killed once by exactly the same thing that Angel was doing to her, quite likely wondering if Ol' Broodie was going to be able to stop in time, which he very nearly didn't.

Except the circumstances are completely different. Buffy went up against the Master knowing that there was a prophecy that she would die- that's fear of certain death right there, in the face of the enemy.
In GD Part 2 Buffy intiates everything, forcing Angel to bite her, and trusting that, even in his fevered, dying state, he will be strong enough to stop himself- and he was.
Buffy gives herself over to him because she loves him and trusts him, that's part of what makes it erotic I suppose- there's danger, but its a danger that Buffy invites on herself.

I might also point out that I find it ironic, of course, that the same people who see this scene as wildly erotic think that the balcony scene between Spike and Buffy in Season 6 is disgusting and degrading, but that would only serve to drag the discussion off subject, so I'll just keep that thought to myself.

Huh? So I suppose since @janas and I spent a lot of this thread explaining to you specifically why this scene was supposed to be erotic that observation is aimed at us?
How do you know what we feel about 'Dead Things' or that scene in particular?

I really don't want to get pulled into yet another Spuffy/Bangel debate that somebody else chooces to start. 🙁

But I will say that Buffy intiated one encounter but kept on saying 'No/Don't' during the other encounter. Nonconsensual isn't really a big turn-on for me.

I would also point to Buffy's mental state at the time- I don't really understand how somebody forcing themselves on a depressed, isolated, fragile person in a public area (all the while murmuring crap cod philosophy in her ear about how they're the 'same') is somehow sexy/erotic.

Mostly however, I find the balcony scene unintentionally hilarious- like a lot of Spuffy scenes it's trying so hard to be risque' but just fails.

What exactly is Spike supposed to be doing to Buffy here? Are they implying some sort of penetration, because in that position, with their height differences (specifically the relative position of their pelvis') what's shown is more like Spike dry-humping Buffy's lower back.
Having dated a petite girl in the past I know that Spike would, at the very least, lift Buffy up on her tip-toes and keep her in that position if he wanted to have his way with her- but this clearly isn't what is shown.

Really I'm surprised Buffy doesn't roll her eyes during this whole thing. -As an erotic sex scene is definitly fails. 😛

Anyway, this is so OT by now it's just getting silly. I'm outta here.

 

[The Bronze]

Must admit I didn't really catch the erotic part of the bite scene. I've just re-watched and I can see it as erotic now at a push. It always struck me as more pain/fear on Buffy's part and trying to be strong to save Angel.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Just on the point of flaws from the op:

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing"--Nietzsche.

That more or less sums up my feeling about flaws and people. There are exceptions, but yeah...

Of course, there are other reasons to like or dislike characters from BtVS than just this. Maybe I'll come back and offer some for Willow, Riley, etc.

Post 500!

 

[Fuffy Baith]

They clearly filmed it and intended it to be erotic and metaphor for sex. I never really got that cause it just seems painful for the person being bit. With Dracula it makes sense cause his has this thrall on people. I think since Buffy and Angel can't have sex this is the closest intimate thing they can do together and maybe that feeling is what they are trying to convey. Idk.

What exactly is Spike supposed to be doing to Buffy here? Are they implying some sort of penetration, because in that position, with their height differences (specifically the relative position of their pelvis') what's shown is more like Spike dry-humping Buffy's lower back.
Having dated a petite girl in the past I know that Spike would, at the very least, lift Buffy up on her tip-toes and keep her in that position if he wanted to have his way with her- but this clearly isn't what is shown.

I have always wondered this too, because everyone assumes they have sexual intercourse but in that position it's not possible without having to move around and unbutton Spikes pants. Spike just runs his hand down Buffy's leg, so I assumed it was just handsy stuff not actual groin to groin contact. It's hard trying to describe this without getting dirty.

 

[thetopher]

I have always wondered this too, because everyone assumes they have sexual intercourse but in that position it's not possible without having to move around and unbutton Spikes pants. Spike just runs his hand down Buffy's leg, so I assumed it was just handsy stuff not actual groin to groin contact.

There's the (too loud) sound of something being unzipped, and then it's suggested that Spike pulls Buffy's skirt up and out of the way...and then he just shoves himself against her?
This is such a biology fail- and so funny.

Maybe yoe're right and it is just hands/groping (which would at least makes some sense) but its implied otherwise.

And that was...all relatively clean. Dammit. 😉

 

[Fuffy Baith]

There's the (too loud) sound of something being unzipped, and then it's suggested that Spike pulls Buffy's skirt up and out of the way...and then he just shoves himself against her?
This is such a biology fail- and so funny.

Maybe yoe're right and it is just hands/groping (which would at least makes some sense) but its implied otherwise.

And that was...all relatively clean. Dammit. 😉

My theory is more plausible. I just re-watched this scene and he is clearly dry humping Buffy. There is no way he is *ahem* penetrating her, in that position unless he has some special equipment down there. I won't even mention the other possibility, which is not likely anyways. I get its supposed to be sex but it's really not a likely scenario, especially when anyone could walk up behind them, that would be a lot more noticeable then what I suggest. So it's clearly a fault on the writers for not foreseeing how that scene would actually translate on screen.

 

[janas]

@thetopher - @Fuffy Baith I believe that the meaning of that scene was intended to show us that after "Smashed" the roles are reversed. Now Buffy has lost its moral high ground, and we see Spike really trying to exert control over Buffy on all levels. After Smashed, the control and then the power, switch totally from Buffy to Spike. It doesn't matter whether they had sex or not, what the authors are saying is that Spike now knows that the dynamics in the game have changed, and he uses them in his favor.

 

[Taake]

Lets get back on topic guys - big flaws vs little flaws in characters - the eroticism of vampire bites is a discussion best left to it's own thread. 🙂