Charles and Wesley in "That Old Gang of Mine"

[LadyLavinia]

Why did Wesley threatened to fire Charles near the end of the episode, "That Old Gang of Mine"?

"Wesley: "If you ever withhold information or attempt to subvert me again, I will fire you. - I can't have any one member of the team compromising the safety of the group, no matter who it is. If you do it again you will be dismissed, bag and baggage, out of a job onto the streets.""

Now, I know that Charles, Wesley and Cordelia had decided to form their own supernatural detective agency in "Redefinition":

"Angel is in the basement of the Hyperion, throwing knives at a target, and hitting the bullseye every time.
He retrieves the knives and gets ready to do it again as Wesley appears on the basement steps.
Wesley: "I thought you might like to know we're keeping the agency open - with or without you."
Angel stands with his back to Wesley, facing the target, silent.
Wesley: "You may have turned your back on your mission, but we haven't.""

Judging from Wes' words, I can only gather that all three are co-owners of the agency. I also know that both Cordelia and Charles had decided to allow Wes to act as de-facto leader in regard to the investigation of their cases. But, Charles was still acting as a co-owner, as seen in the episode, "Reprise":

"Cordy: "Great. So while they're indulging their denial, we have bills to pay!"
Gunn: "You know she's right."
Gunn goes and grabs his coat.
Wesley: "Perhaps, given time, the Sharps will come 'round."
Gunn: "Right! Because that's what people do. The come round."
Cordy: "Where are you going?"
Gunn: "I think I'll see what's happening in the neighborhood. Got a feeling I do more good *there* than sitting around here with you two."
Wesley: "Things'll pick up. They're bound to."
Cordy: "Yeah. It's LA. The evil's probably just tied up in traffic or something."
Gunn: "Well, you let me know when it get here, right?""

So, why didn't Wesley simply tell Charles that he and Cordelia would demand that he leave the partnership, if he kept any further secrets to himself? Why did he treat the other man as a lowly employee, when Charles never was one, since mid or late Season 2?

 

[Hitome]

Simple really, its classic Wesley. Watch everyone argue with me about how sweet and deserving Wesley really is, but this really is just classic.

Wesley doesn't like Gunn. I think he feels threatened by him. Gunn is better at fighting than him and doesn't make the type of mortifying mistakes that Wesley does. Wesley is an authoritarian ******* and he knows that Gunn isn't as secure about his place in the group as he ought to be. Gunn gave up all of his friends and his position of leader of a demon-killing group for a chance to help people and maybe live a little longer. Cordy belives in him but Angel and especially Wesley have never tried to really make Gunn feel like part of the group.

Both Gunn and Cordy solve problems and "save the day" just as frequently if not more frequently than Angel and Wesley, but neither man gives them credit for often acting as the brains of the operation. Gunn is a much better leader than Wesley or Angel and Wesley suspects that Gunn could influence the direction of their group. Since Wesley feels insecure and needs to be in control he has to ellimiate Gunn's ability to challenge him by acting as the leader.

Wesley has changed a lot since Buffy, but he hasn't changed completely. He adopted the exact same attitude with Buffy, Faith, and the rest of the group that he does here with Gunn. They, however, were secure enough in their own ablities friendship that they just igored Wesley's self-important posturing. Gunn isn't so secure. Wesley talks to Gunn like he is some sort of hired help, very self importantly and distantly. Notice that Wesley says, "

"Wesley: "you will be dismissed, bag and baggage, out of a job onto the streets."

He doesn't say the he will dismiss Gunn or kick him out. Wesley is taking on a degree of authority he expects Gunn to buy. Once he has seized control, Wesley will be secure with his position in the group and knows no one will challenge him.

 

[LadyLavinia]

This is, without a doubt, the most intelligent response I have received, regarding this question. I'm deadly serious. Most people have defended Wes' attitude in the episode. You simply laid it out. Don't get me wrong. Up until early or mid S5, Wes was a favorite of mine. But I never liked that scene in "That Old Gang of Mine". And you perfectly explained why. Thank you.

 

[Hitome]

This is, without a doubt, the most intelligent response I have received, regarding this question... Thank you.

Wow, thank you.
It never fails to surprise me the way some people see characters the way that they want them to be rather than the way that they are. Take the militant Spangel shippers. If Angelus liked men we would have known from very early in Buffy since he enjoys sexually attractive victims. Angelus rapes and kills his victims. He's a serial killer with a profile and if he had any sexual desires toward men it should have been evident in his killing. The other thing that really bothers me as you know 🙂 is idolizing Wesley's feelings for Fred and hers for him into some type of "true love" when what's occuring is clearly more complicated and rather borring once consumated.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Wow, thank you.
It never fails to surprise me the way some people see characters the way that they want them to be rather than the way that they are. Take the militant Spangel shippers. If Angelus liked men we would have known from very early in Buffy since he enjoys sexually attractive victims. Angelus rapes and kills his victims. He's a serial killer with a profile and if he had any sexual desires toward men it should have been evident in his killing. The other thing that really bothers me as you know 🙂 is idolizing Wesley's feelings for Fred and hers for him into some type of "true love" when what's occuring is clearly more complicated and rather borring once consumated.

You have to understand . . . a lot of people are like Wes. That's why he is so popular. They prefer the ideal or the illusion over the reality. To many people, the ideal nature of Wes and Fred's romance is preferable to the reality that ME had pointed out in episodes like "Players" (Wes and Fred's convesation about Connor, Cordelia and Lilah) and one of the late S5 episodes (in which Wes has a dream in which he realizes that he never knew the real Fred).

People are simply like that. Well, not everyone, but a lot.

 

[JustAnnie]

I like both Wes and Gunn, but I don't agree with what you said. Especially the part about Wesley not liking Gunn, I think he likes him alot, maybe that's the reason. I think maybe he was hurt by the fact that Gunn didn't tell him, and instead of saying that, he threatened to fire him, not cos he doesn't like him, but cos he really does like him, and sees him as a friend. Not to forget the fact that alot of Wesley's friends were almost killed, and also himself. I'm not trying to defend Wesley, he shouldn't have been that mean (although he was very kool in that scene), but I think the reasons were different then from what you said.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I like both Wes and Gunn, but I don't agree with what you said. Especially the part about Wesley not liking Gunn, I think he likes him alot, maybe that's the reason. I think maybe he was hurt by the fact that Gunn didn't tell him, and instead of saying that, he threatened to fire him, not cos he doesn't like him, but cos he really does like him, and sees him as a friend. Not to forget the fact that alot of Wesley's friends were almost killed, and also himself. I'm not trying to defend Wesley, he shouldn't have been that mean (although he was very kool in that scene), but I think the reasons were different then from what you said.

I never said that Wesley didn't like Gunn. I said that Wesley had no right to treat Gunn like a low-level employee who could be fired. Nor did I consider Wes "cool" in that scene. Merely arrogant. I think he used the wrong words to Gunn at the end of that episode. Instead of threatening to fire the other man, Wesley simply could have told him that he and Cordelia will ask him to leave the agency or end their partnership, if Gunn withholds information again. The ironic thing is that Wesley did the same thing in mid-Season 3, and a lot of people blamed Gunn for turning his back on the Englishman.

 

[JustAnnie]

I never said that Wesley didn't like Gunn. I said that Wesley had no right to treat Gunn like a low-level employee who could be fired. Nor did I consider Wes "cool" in that scene. Merely arrogant. I think he used the wrong words to Gunn at the end of that episode. Instead of threatening to fire the other man, Wesley simply could have told him that he and Cordelia will ask him to leave the agency or end their partnership, if Gunn withholds information again. The ironic thing is that Wesley did the same thing in mid-Season 3, and a lot of people blamed Gunn for turning his back on the Englishman.

I know you didnt say it, I was talking to Hitome with that comment, should have been clearer, sorry!
I don't agree with the way Wesley treated Gunn either, he should have acted in another way, but I don't think he meant it like that. I just thought Wesley was kool in that scene, cos he showed a tougher side of himself, that's all, doesn't mean I agree with what he said.
Haven't seen mid-season 3, so I can't say anything about the last part.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I know you didnt say it, I was talking to Hitome with that comment, should have been clearer, sorry!
I don't agree with the way Wesley treated Gunn either, he should have acted in another way, but I don't think he meant it like that. I just thought Wesley was kool in that scene, cos he showed a tougher side of himself, that's all, doesn't mean I agree with what he said.
Haven't seen mid-season 3, so I can't say anything about the last part.

Sorry for the mix up. I thought you were responding to a message of mine. And thanks for clearing it up. :Angel_ani

 

[eset]

I think that Wesley was being a little unfair, but that it was also a little understandable. He had been very nearly killed that night, along oth tha others. tensions were running high, and, as in many tense situations, he said things that he didn't mean. On the other hand, it is also true that the true test of someone's character isn't whether they are nice to others when it is convenient, but whether they show compassion when their world is crashing down around them. Wes failed this time, as did Angel when Darla was re-sired. It wasn't the first time someone cracked under the strain of nearly being killed, and it wouldn't be the last.

 

[JustAnnie]

I think that Wesley was being a little unfair, but that it was also a little understandable. He had been very nearly killed that night, along oth tha others. tensions were running high, and, as in many tense situations, he said things that he didn't mean. On the other hand, it is also true that the true test of someone's character isn't whether they are nice to others when it is convenient, but whether they show compassion when their world is crashing down around them. Wes failed this time, as did Angel when Darla was re-sired. It wasn't the first time someone cracked under the strain of nearly being killed, and it wouldn't be the last.

Yeah. He's just human. If someone had put me and my friends in big danger, and we were almost killed, I'd be pretty mad and say things I didn't mean aswell.

LadyLavinia: Me and mix ups happen all the time! 😀

 

[Hitome]

I know you didnt say it, I was talking to Hitome with that comment, should have been clearer, sorry!
I don't agree with the way Wesley treated Gunn either, he should have acted in another way, but I don't think he meant it like that. I just thought Wesley was kool in that scene, cos he showed a tougher side of himself, that's all, doesn't mean I agree with what he said.
Haven't seen mid-season 3, so I can't say anything about the last part.

Let me reply and clarify. What I mean by "doesn't like" is that Wesley is jealous of Gunn and resents his presence not that Wesley personally can't stand him. By the time Gunn is dating Fred, Wesley quits treating him as a friend and even before then he quits treating him as an equal. I should have said the Wesley doesn't like Gunn's presence not that he doesn't like him personally. Although, that is kind of the same thing.