Chosen: Empowering the Potentials & Female Empowerment?

[Silverspike]

That means nothing has ever been empowering then.

Probably not then If you take a womens ability to decide what she wants to do with her OWN BODY out of the equation.

I dont see how anyone can moan about consent, when all the girls activated already lost concent.
Every potential was already marked, already chosen and already altered in some way.

Only one women would ever be activated at a time, and so far, far more would be left alone to lead their own normal lives.

So much for Whedons big feminist ideals. His heart was in the right place, but he seems clueless about how some would view this.

 

[danajsparks]

Would it be ok for a government to secretly drug its soldiers, without their consent, in order to make them super soldiers?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Chosen vs NFA - which one was correct?

Probably not then If you take a womens ability to decide what she wants to do with her OWN BODY out of the equation.

But she already lost that right, she never had say over her own body she was already a potential slayer.
Potential slayers aren't normal, they have better reflexes, strength and whatever else.
The whole idea that the activation spell took away that right is nonsense, the original spell took away that right.
The activation spell lessened the consequences of that spell.

Only one women would ever be activated at a time, and so far, far more would be left alone to lead their own normal lives.

How is that bit better?
If one girl gets activated they have to give up their life to fight evil and die young.
Now all the girls have strength and can decide to fight or decide to sit around watching tv all day.
They are the first slayers that choose not to slay.
Like I said they didn't get a choice in getting the power bug they were never going to get a choice in the power.

For me it's as simple as:
Choice A - girl doesn't have choice in getting power, doesn't have choice in fighting.
Choice B - girl doesn't have choice in getting power, can choose to fight.

Neither is fantastic, but B is clearly a much better option. It gives more choice to the scenario, which us were the empowerment comes in.

So much for Whedons big feminist ideals. His heart was in the right place, but he seems clueless about how some would view this.

So?
The 'some' aren't the majority, I think most people can see the benefit.

Besides that's just how the world works, a majority rules. Buffy asked the slayers if they wanted to go with the plan, and they did. They effectively voted on behalf if all the slayers, that's just the same as how it works in the real world.


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---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

Would it be ok for a government to secretly drug its soldiers, without their consent, in order to make them super soldiers?

Would it be okay for a government to pick one fighter to do all the fighting and force the drug on them?
Or drug all the soldiers and then let them choose to fight?

Your forgetting the Drug metaphor is the original spell, not he activation spell


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[Silverspike]

Potential slayers aren't normal, they have better reflexes, strength and whatever else.

When was that established in the show? They were normal women until activated.

But she already lost that right, she never had say over her own body she was already a potential slayer.

Rubbish. Nobody loosing that right.

How is that bit better?

The majority wouldn't be called. If you can't see that then...

Besides that's just how the world works, a majority rules.

Yeah real empowering message that one then If thats all you took from that. Well done Whedon, mission accomplished. 😀

How anyone can't see what the basic problem here astounds me quite frankly. Is it any wonder women's rights still have so far to go.

 

[thetopher]

'Forced'. Now thats REAL empowering isn't it. 😀

For me It's about being given the ability to decide what to do with ones own body. Something that women have looong history of being denied, and you'd think Whedon would understand given he likes to think he's a feminist.

Thanks for flagging up what I (and several others) have trouble with this idea.

Imo Joss really didn't have his thinking head on when he came up with this.

Right, so by your reckoning Buffy isn't, hasn't and can never be a feminist icon or empowered because the powers were forced on her., she never had a choice- she's a 'princess' archetype.

Even though we see her struggle, her pain at coming to grips with these powers and her destiny, and finally embrace all of that and kick ass, it doesn't matter because she never had a choice, I guess in your eyes she is always a 'victim' of the shadowmen.

you're arguing that all of the girls who were empowered by the spell will also always be victims because they also didn't choose.


Therefore Buffy and Faith were also victims, not heroines.

We've clearly been watching different versions of the same show. 😉

'Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them'

 

[Silverspike]

Therefore Buffy and Faith were also victims, not heroines.

They're the decedents of victims. Thousands of basically enslaved women doing the Councils dirty business for them until Buffy came along and finally said NO. I'm doing it my way. That doesn't mean the Shadowmen were right in what they did though.

As I've said for the hundredth time Buffy the character was dealt a bad hand by Whedon with this plot. Imo consent was missing and however a you spin it thats WRONG.

---------- Post added at 05:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 AM ----------

Saw this online which sums up some of my issues with the plot more succinctly the I could muster.

For Whedon, the final theme of the Slayer activation was the goal that could not be sacrificed even though retaining it had a negative impact on other aspects of the season. Ironically, the means the writers adopted to attain their final message contradict that message. In order to achieve the metaphor of 'sharing power,' the participatory power of every voice but Buffy's is gutted. The problem is that being denied the free expression of one's individual identity is not empowering. Being silenced is not empowering.

http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage15/Spicer.htm

 

[danajsparks]

Would it be okay for a government to pick one fighter to do all the fighting and force the drug on them?
Or drug all the soldiers and then let them choose to fight?

Why isn't it an option for the government to inform the soldiers ahead of time about the drug (and its possible side effects) and allow each one to decide for himself whether or not he wants to take the drug?

Your forgetting the Drug metaphor is the original spell, not he activation spell

I think the drug metaphor still works for the activation spell. It would be like the gov.'s sole fighter deciding to secretly force the same drug upon his fellow soldiers.

 

[thetopher]

They're the decedents of victims. Thousands of basically enslaved women doing the Councils dirty business for them until Buffy came along and finally said NO. I'm doing it my way. That doesn't mean the Shadowmen were right in what they did though.

As I've said for the hundredth time Buffy the character was dealt a bad hand by Whedon with this plot. Imo consent was missing and however a you spin it thats WRONG.

---------- Post added at 05:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 AM ----------

Saw this online which sums up some of my issues with the plot more succinctly the I could muster.

Doesn't matter that Buffy did it her way (and isn't it ironic that you criticise Buffy for breaking the 'rules' until she breaks them in a way you don't like😉 ) , the point of this particular discussion is the choice in having that power- she never had it, so in your eyes she's a victim, not empowered.
You defined empowerment as choice, I don't.

I define empowerment in taking what is done to you, be it becoming a slayer, a watcher, a vampire cursed with a soul, a cheerleader lumbered with visions, and making the best of it.

saying 'to hell with this, to hell with what's fair, I'm gonna do what's right, save people, save the world, whatever. I've got this power/ability/training, so I'm gonna use it.' -that's empowering, because that's something everybody can understand.

Hell, that's one of the key messages of Buffy and Angel, which obviously some people seem to have missed in their need to be outraged.

Btw its been implyed a couple of times that Joss somehow pulled this ending out of his ass and that the writing/logic of the empowerment spell was him 'not thinking straight', unfortunantly Joss has made it clear in several interviews that he knew from the very beginning how Buffy was going to end, with her sharing her power with others, that's how it was always meant to be.

Oh, and enough of the 'no wonder feminism has so far to go' crap- its snarky and patronising, just because you don't agree with somebodty else's opinion doesn't make that opinion invalid, or that person an unpleasent woman-hater.

What somebody does makes them unpleasent.

 

[The Bronze]

I'm really struggling to picture the potentials who were being carved up by bringers thinking "I'm so glad I don't have the ability to defend myself" right before they died. Or that if Willow had done nothing and let The First march along how it wanted that the women of the world would have thanked her. An army released from the hellmouth and The First with the ability to enter humans at will and the women of the world turn round and say "the world's ending but at least none of us have been given super powers to help save ourselves and our loved ones".

Women's empowerment and feminism become entirely irrelevant if there's no world left for them to exist in.

 

[danajsparks]

Doesn't matter that Buffy did it her way (and isn't it ironic that you criticise Buffy for breaking the 'rules' until she breaks them in a way you don't like😉 ) , the point of this particular discussion is the choice in having that power- she never had it, so in your eyes she's a victim, not empowered.
You defined empowerment as choice, I don't.

I define empowerment in taking what is done to you, be it becoming a slayer, a watcher, a vampire cursed with a soul, a cheerleader lumbered with visions, and making the best of it.

saying 'to hell with this, to hell with what's fair, I'm gonna do what's right, save people, save the world, whatever. I've got this power/ability/training, so I'm gonna use it.' -that's empowering, because that's something everybody can understand.

Being a victim and being empowered are not mutually exclusive. My friend who was molested by her father as a child was still a victim, even though she now "makes the best of it" by trying to help other victims of sexual abuse.

Buffy is still a victim of the shadowmen even though she's able to "make the best" of her situation.

It's not the superpowers and responsibility forced upon her that make her empowered. It's her choices afterwards about how she deals with her power and responsibility that make her empowered.

 

[Silverspike]

I think we're arguing t cross purposes here.

I've said this about a dozen times up thread and so I'll state this one final time. I HAVE ISSUES WITH HOW WHEDON DEVISED THE PLOT not how Buffy ended up dealing with it. The character was written into a corner of Joss's own making.

The character WAS DEALT A CRAPPY HAND. See?

Chosen like all BTVS tales act as metaphors about real life issues effecting a young women going through life, and imo If Chosen was meant to be serving up the empowerment spell as the essence of being feminist and empowering, well imo it failed.

*sigh* did any of you even bother to read that quote/link I included?

In order to achieve the metaphor of 'sharing power,' the participatory power of every voice but Buffy's is gutted. The problem is that being denied the free expression of one's individual identity is not empowering. Being silenced is not empowering.

THIS! This is the problem I have with what was done.

Anyhoo. I'm done. I can't explain this any better and If you don't get it, well you don't get it....

 

[danajsparks]

I'm really struggling to picture the potentials who were being carved up by bringers thinking "I'm so glad I don't have the ability to defend myself" right before they died. Or that if Willow had done nothing and let The First march along how it wanted that the women of the world would have thanked her. An army released from the hellmouth and The First with the ability to enter humans at will and the women of the world turn round and say "the world's ending but at least none of us have been given super powers to help save ourselves and our loved ones".

Women's empowerment and feminism become entirely irrelevant if there's no world left for them to exist in.

Giving someone the ability to fight back is definitely good. But forcing that ability upon someone without their knowledge or permission is not so good, especially when there are costs to having that ability.

 

[thetopher]

I think we're arguing t cross purposes here.

I've said this about a dozen times up thread and so I'll state this one final time. I HAVE ISSUES WITH HOW WHEDON DEVISED THE PLOT not how Buffy ended up dealing with it. The character was written into a corner of Joss's own making.

The character WAS DEALT A CRAPPY HAND. See?

Chosen like all BTVS tales act as metaphors about real life issues effecting a young women going through life, and imo If Chosen was meant to be serving up the empowerment spell as the essence of being feminist and empowering, well imo it failed.

*sigh* did any of you even bother to read that quote/link I included?



THIS! This is the problem I have with what was done.

Anyhoo. I'm done. I can't explain this any better and If you don't get it, well you don't get it....

And in my opinion it did succeed. 🙂

I read your link and, shock horror, I disagreed with it, as do plenty of others who think 'Chosen' is a great metaphor- it breaks the 'shadowmens' rules once again, because the 'one girl' clause was always about controlling that one girl.

You can argue that the spell just forfilled these girl 'potential'- any girl who could be a slayer, will be a slayer- that's a perfect empowerment metaphor in my opinion.

I'm not saying that their aren't dowsides to what happened, we see them in Angel S5 and in the comics, but on balance, the world continues to turn.

Plus, most of those girls except what they are-are empowered...until Twilight came along and killed a lot of them, but that's another discussion entirely.

 

[The Bronze]

I think we're arguing t cross purposes here.

I've said this about a dozen times up thread and so I'll state this one final time. I HAVE ISSUES WITH HOW WHEDON DEVISED THE PLOT not how Buffy ended up dealing with it. The character was written into a corner of Joss's own making.

Yes I think we may have been. You're not happy with how Whedon wrote the story because it doesn't fit with your ideology which is fair enough. I was just defending Willow and Buffy in story for saving the world. I'm not so fussed over the pros and cons of the story itself from an ideological perspective, I enjoyed it and thought it was a good solution the characters came up with to a big problem.

Giving someone the ability to fight back is definitely good. But forcing that ability upon someone without their knowledge or permission is not so good, especially when there are costs to having that ability.

If I was starving to death and someone hooked me up to a food drip and saved my life then I'd be pleased, even if they didn't have my consent first.

 

[thetopher]

Being a victim and being empowered are not mutually exclusive. My friend who was molested by her father as a child was still a victim, even though she now "makes the best of it" by trying to help other victims of sexual abuse.

Buffy is still a victim of the shadowmen even though she's able to "make the best" of her situation.

It's not the superpowers and responsibility forced upon her that make her empowered. It's her choices afterwards about how she deals with her power and responsibility that make her empowered.

Fine, I agree with you up to a point, but I was directing my comments at somebody else, who's opinion is different.

Though I do take issue with your comparrison, sexual abuse is horrific, being given superpowers- even with a downside, doesn't compare, there's no violation intent there.

You can start off a victim and then decide to stop and become something else- you can't change the past but you can learn from it and become stronger, at least that's how I see it.

But, imo, Buffy stops being a victim when she embraces her slayer role right around S3, you can't play the victim card forever.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

When was that established in the show? They were normal women until activated.

BUFFY
You're right. You don't have slayer strength. But that doesn't mean that you're not strong. You have inherent abilities that others do not have.

MOLLY
(taking notes on a pad) Not like you do.

BUFFY
No, not yet, but it's there. You have the potential. You have strength, speed, instinct. You just have to learn to trust yourself. Rona, what did your instincts tell you to do just then?

Rubbish. Nobody loosing that right.

I not saying she shouldn't have the roght, I'm saying the problem you have with the spell, if the girls didn't get to choose to be slayers - but they'd already lost that, the spell didn't take that away. They were already marked as potentials.

The majority wouldn't be called. If you can't see that then...

But if you were a potential, you could have been called - thats all that matters.
For each slayer they have two "options" they get called and die, or they dont get called.
If you asked them, would you like to take the power and you can decide what to do whatever you like, or you decide to not take the power, you might get chosen anyway then your alone to do all the fighting yourself - which is the better option?

Yeah real empowering message that one then If thats all you took from that. Well done Whedon, mission accomplished. 😀

This literally makes no sense.
The womens right to vote is empowering right?
Not every single women went out and campaigned for that.
By your "logic" a small band of women forced the right to vote on all women and that's not empowering?

[/QUOTE]How anyone can't see what the basic problem here astounds me quite frankly. Is it any wonder women's rights still have so far to go.[/QUOTE]
We all see the problem. The whole idea of a girl being picked out as a slayer is the
problem, but the spell didn't address that, the spell just made a crappy situation better.

For Whedon, the final theme of the Slayer activation was the goal that could not be sacrificed even though retaining it had a negative impact on other aspects of the season. Ironically, the means the writers adopted to attain their final message contradict that message. In order to achieve the metaphor of 'sharing power,' the participatory power of every voice but Buffy's is gutted. The problem is that being denied the free expression of one's individual identity is not empowering. Being silenced is not empowering.

This quote of yours shows a really narrow minded view. The problem is the person isn't realising that Buffy was one of these potentials, Faith was one of these potentials, they ask the potentials what they want to do - they are their group.

I'm not a potential slayer so from an outside perspective I can say "it's terrible they had that foreced on them"
But from an inside perspective, If I'm a potential slayer and I'm given the option to take the power and not have to do anything with it, or vote to not take the powe but there's a chance I'll get it anyway and then I'll have to fight - that's a no brainer.
I'm going to choose to take the power, as it gives me more control.
That group in Buffys living room decided that from that perspective.

Why isn't it an option for the government to inform the soldiers ahead of time about the drug (and its possible side effects) and allow each one to decide for himself whether or not he wants to take the drug?

Because there is an army of evil monks killing off all the soldiers faster than you can get to them.
In the time it would take you to contact them and ask them, loads of them die.
So instead you ask a group of them to decide what they want to do and they speak for the whole group.

I think the drug metaphor still works for the activation spell. It would be like the gov.'s sole fighter deciding to secretly force the same drug upon his fellow soldiers.

The drug metaphor doesn't really work.
Each of those soldiers is walking around with a needed in their arm and the drug just waiting to be pushed in.
Thats inevitable. That soldier is attached to the drug.
If the government went around and picked out 1200 people and then attatcehd the drug to them, thats a whole other thing. They've picked a number of people and taken away their right to choose the drug.
Thats not what happened with the spell. Those people were already picked to be attached.

If the spell picked a load of random normal girls and gave them powers I could see your point, but these girls were already dealt a tough card, they are already potentials, they are already being hunted.

It's not the superpowers and responsibility forced upon her that make her empowered. It's her choices afterwards about how she deals with her power and responsibility that make her empowered.

EXACTLY!!

The empowering part of the spell wasn't that all these potentials got super strenght, it was the girls could not choose what do with it.
When Buffy found out she's a slayer she had no choice but to fight. The new slayers have a choice.
Every single slayer and potential slayer is a victim of the original spell, but the empowering part is now they get to choose to fight or not.

 

[Silverspike]

*sigh* I know I'm going to regret this but here goes...

BUFFY
You're right. You don't have slayer strength. But that doesn't mean that you're not strong. You have inherent abilities that others do not have.

MOLLY
(taking notes on a pad) Not like you do.

BUFFY
No, not yet, but it's there. You have the potential. You have strength, speed, instinct. You just have to learn to trust yourself. Rona, what did your instincts tell you to do just then?

Thanks for confirming they're pretty much ordinary women yet. Far from being a Slayer. They were unactivated hon as in can't draw on their power.

Look Whedon can't have it both ways. They appeared to normal girls uptil then and only could stand their ground when activated.

Otherwise the whole slayer spell bit, hell the premise of the whole Slayer line idea bit wouldn't make any sense.

If you asked them,

I'm going to choose to take the power

But there's the rub, they weren't asked or put into a position to choose. For the thousandth time It's about consent. Joss gave them no say AT ALL and thats not empowering in the slightest.

 

[danajsparks]

I think we're arguing t cross purposes here.

I've said this about a dozen times up thread and so I'll state this one final time. I HAVE ISSUES WITH HOW WHEDON DEVISED THE PLOT not how Buffy ended up dealing with it. The character was written into a corner of Joss's own making.

The character WAS DEALT A CRAPPY HAND. See?

Yes, I think as far as Buffy knew, the vast majority of the Potentials had already been killed, and the nearly all of the few still alive were with her in Sunnydale. I'm pretty sure she didn't know that the spell would affect thousands of girls.

If the activation spell had only affected the girls who were with her in Sunnydale, girls who were given the choice, I believe that it would have been a beautiful metaphor of sharing power and female empowerment.

But Joss does this to Buffy all the time. He contrives the plot so that she's lacking necessary information when she makes decisions and then makes her suffer for it.

 

[Silverspike]

Exactly. Say Willows spell had managed to somehow magically mentally link all Potentials all over the world together and so allow them to at least know what the hell what was going on and what was going to be done to them, and and thus give them some input into the proceedings, or or as you suggested only activate the ones in Sunnydale, well I'd have no problem with that.

But as it stands in the show, nah.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Thanks for confirming they're pretty much ordinary women yet. Far from being a Slayer. They were unactivated hon as in can't draw on their power.

You have inherent abilities that others do not have.

I narrowed it down to point you to the important bit, since you seemed to missed it.

But you said it yourself they are "pretty much ordinary women" - that means they are not ordinary women.

Buffy says it, then Amanda demonstrates that exact thing later in the episode, when she uses her slayer instincts that are there to fight.

Look Whedon can't have it both ways. They appeared to normal girls uptil then and only could stand their ground when activated.

I gave you a reference to show they aren't normal girls, can you give me one that says they are?
YOU say they are normal girls, the show says they are potentials slayers and have extra abilities.

Can I have the refrence for where they are normal girls with no extra abilities, and the reference that says they can't draw on their power?
The quote I gave you already invalidates your point, so I'd like to understand the source you're using to make up your answer?

Otherwise the whole slayer spell bit, hell the premise of the whole Slayer line idea bit wouldn't make any sense.

All of this was covered in the quote I gave you, so just to help you again:

"Not like you do."

It still makes perfect sense, potentials may have better strength but they dont have Slayer strength.

But there's the rub, they weren't asked or put into a position to choose. For the thousandth time It's about consent. Joss gave them no say AT ALL and thats not empowering in the slightest.

What you can't seem to understand, they NEVER had consent on being potential/slayers.
They were already different.
The spell gave them say in what they do with their power.
They didn't have that before.




If you can't back up your arguments with a reference from the show were they specifically say potentials are 100% normal girls, with no extra abilities your entire point is invalid.
The very fact that potentials can be identified just shows they are already different. The bit you have a problem with is already done to them.

Exactly. Say Willows spell had managed to somehow magically mentally link all Potentials all over the world together and so allow them to at least know what the hell what was going on and what was going to be done to them, and and thus give them some input into the proceedings, or or as you suggested only activate the ones in Sunnydale, well I'd have no problem with that.

But as it stands in the show, nah.

Well if things were all kittens and rainbows like that, Willow should have just done a spell to turn the First into a cloud and gone about her day.