Chosen: Empowering the Potentials & Female Empowerment?

[danajsparks]

I would like to try to clarify a few things....

From what I can tell, most (or at least many) of us agree that Buffy was not aware that that the activation spell would affect so many girls. As far as Buffy knew, the vast majority of the potentials had already been killed, and almost all of those still alive were with her in Sunnydale. Buffy didn't know that there were still thousands of potentials out there.

From what I can tell, most (though maybe not all) of us agree that Buffy probably did have the consent of the girls who were with her in Sunnydale.

So nobody is blaming Buffy. (Or at least I'm not.) Though there may be plenty to criticize about Buffy's overall strategy in S7, I personally don't believe that her decision to do the activation spell was morally wrong because the decision was based upon the information she had at the time. I'm not accusing Buffy of metaphorically raping thousands of girls, because I'm pretty sure that she was unaware that those girls even existed. For me, this isn't a question of whether or not Buffy made the right decision.

My problem is with how Joss wrote the story. He created a situation where thousands of girls had their bodies and psyches fundamentally altered without their knowledge or consent because he set up the story so that Buffy didn't even know about them.

I believe that Buffy's intent of the spell was good, but I believe that the consequences of the spell were still very problematic.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well, to be fair, we don't know that Joss planned for there to be hundreds of other potentials out there that Buffy and friends didn't know about. Personally, I think some things would have been written differently if he did (at that time) mean for there to be more potentials out there.

And I still think that the potentials' bodies were already altered by virtue of being potentials, so therefore I don't think that there was intentional or otherwise violation of the potentials' bodies by using the spell. Again, I think if Willow had the ability to alter bodies in that way, she could have made anyone a slayer - including soldiers, or people who volunteered.

🙂

 

[thetopher]

Sorry, you said thousands, not hundreds of thousands- my bad.

"Size of the armies: The English army landed in France and besieged the port town of Harfleur some 30,000 strong. The siege took its toll, many in the army dying of disease, and a strong garrison had to be left to defend the captured port. At the Battle of Agincourt Henry's army was probably around 5,000 knights, men-at-arms and archers. Estimates of the size of the French army vary widely, from 30,000 to as high as 100,000."

That's from an actual historian. 1 to 6 at the very least, or 1 to 20 at the most (according to french or english chroniclers repectively) - as I said, comparible odds.

I've got plenty more stats, just name which example I was 'proved false on' (by the mighty Wikipedia no less- which is known for its historical bias/inaccuracy), as a history major I'd be interested in the discussion. 🙂

Part of Buffy tactic was to attack the First's army before it was ready, which is why its not at full strength, and easier to kill.
Although Joss said it was just for the dramatics of it, so there's that.

I'm not ignoring anything- Buffy and the slayers we fighting back when Spike's amulet activated. You said they were clearly losing. You're the one who's ignoring what is shown to fit you're own (quite emotive) argument. 🙂

The only differences between the seasons, as I illustrated, is scale, not tactics- that's the point I'm making. You critise Buffy for her tactics in 'Chosen' you're critising the ending of S3 and 4 as well, which is your right of course, I just never see anybody going on about how 'unrealistic' those battles are, just S7- its strange.


You're right, we clearly aren't gonna see things the same way, but we can try and be civil.

 

[danajsparks]

Well, to be fair, we don't know that Joss planned for there to be hundreds of other potentials out there that Buffy and friends didn't know about. Personally, I think some things would have been written differently if he did (at that time) mean for there to be more potentials out there.

Totally agree!

And I still think that the potentials' bodies were already altered by virtue of being potentials, so therefore I don't think that there was intentional or otherwise violation of the potentials' bodies by using the spell. Again, I think if Willow had the ability to alter bodies in that way, she could have made anyone a slayer - including soldiers, or people who volunteered.

🙂

Well, I will agree that the original spell that made some girls potentials, was, by itself, a violation of their bodies. And that was definitely the fault of the shadow men.

However, I believe that there was still a pretty significant difference between being a potential and being an actual slayer, so I would say that the activation spell would therefore be a second violation.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well, I will agree that the original spell that made some girls potentials, was, by itself, a violation of their bodies. And that was definitely the fault of the shadow men.

I agree with this part, just not on the other 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

However, I believe that there was still a pretty significant difference between being a potential and being an actual slayer, so I would say that the activation spell would therefore be a second violation.

Exactly. Well put. 🙂

 

[RomanticSoul]

You guys, this is a good thread. Love threads like this, it's thought-provoking stuff. Anyway, another thought.

Female empowerment as I understand it is the empowerment of women as a group. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong but is this really what takes place in "Chosen"? Only a tiny bunch of chosen at random individuals is empowered and they are not women. Not really. The potentials are not human, they are supernatural creatures so is it fair to use the word empowerment with all its connotations to describe what happens in "Chosen"?

I don't know, it looks more like a potential slayer power up than actual female empowerment to me.

For me it's not empowerment either. For the simple fact that the power wasn't shared with ALL women. In Chosen they basically created an elite class of superpowered people. Which can or can't be a good thing.

I found the visual at the end of 'Damage' very interesting. Where you suddenly have a dozen slayers pop up behind Andrew like some kind of mafia. A group that was apparently too busy shopping and getting their nails done while one of their own slaughtered people through LA. A group more interested in a power play with Angel&Co. than doing what they are supposed to do...protect humanity. Instead they left it to others to risk their neck. Seems that new elite class is above protecting innocent live even from one of their own. Guess the Sunnydale crew was too busy getting one up on the LA crew than dealing with a problem that they created and is therefor their responsibility.

 

[Robb Stark]

That's from an actual historian. 1 to 6 at the very least, or 1 to 20 at the most (according to french or english chroniclers repectively) - as I said, comparible odds.

Okay well I said 6-1, which you then discounted, saying it was much more. Now it isn't?

This History channel's website estimated it was 5500 against 20, 000, a little less than 4-1. The reference is: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/battle-of-agincourt. Not trying to be rude, but I trust that more than an unnamed or referenced "actual historian". And even it was 6, or 20 to 1, that's still vastly better odds than what Buffy was facing.

I've got plenty more stats, just name which example I was 'proved false on' (by the mighty Wikipedia no less- which is known for its historical bias/inaccuracy), as a history major I'd be interested in the discussion. 🙂

I was speaking primarily about Agincourt, but quick checks showed that you inflated the numbers with regard to Rorke's Drift. BBC History (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/zulu_01.shtml) puts it at 140-3000. Very impressive still, but not quite the 5000 you claimed it was. The other battles you mentioned were nowhere near the numerical disparity Buffy was facing.

Plus, I'm not saying under the right conditions a smaller force can't win. Obviously it can. But the Turok-Han were a mindless force that never, ever would have quit. At Rorke's Drift the Zulu retreated after losing less than a thousand men. I don't think you can compare the Turok-Han in the same way. Plus, the chief benefit of a chokepoint defensive position is that you're rear and flanks are protected. Buffy was encircled.

I'm not ignoring anything- Buffy and the slayers we fighting back when Spike's amulet activated. You said they were clearly losing. You're the one who's ignoring what is shown to fit you're own (quite emotive) argument. 🙂

Why would they show Buffy looking around at Slayers dying? It's fine if we interpret it differently I guess, she obviously makes a heroic comeback, but they weren't winning.

And I was emotive because you were condescending, something I've asked you to not be in different threads before. My posts generally aren't sharp towards those who don't tell me to "read a history book".

The only differences between the seasons, as I illustrated, is scale, not tactics- that's the point I'm making. You critise Buffy for her tactics in 'Chosen' you're critising the ending of S3 and 4 as well, which is your right of course, I just never see anybody going on about how 'unrealistic' those battles are, just S7- its strange.

But tactics are influenced by the conditions and the enemy you face. That's a basic concept. If Buffy were facing 50 vampires with her 24 Slayers and Spike then the plan would not have been nearly as bad. Her plan in S3, which I haven't seen in a while, did not involve leading a small team against an enemy of thousands. It had her defeat Faith one-on-one and then lure the Mayor into a room full of explosives and blow him up. Her S4 plan involved boosting her own power to combat Adam. Those aren't similar to S7. The context is completely different. Why should her tactical analysis be the same as situations from her past that aren't parallel to what she's facing in S7?

You're right, we clearly aren't gonna see things the same way, but we can try and be civil.

Agreed.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Totally agree!



Well, I will agree that the original spell that made some girls potentials, was, by itself, a violation of their bodies. And that was definitely the fault of the shadow men.

However, I believe that there was still a pretty significant difference between being a potential and being an actual slayer, so I would say that the activation spell would therefore be a second violation.

But thats the thing, there isn't much difference between being a potential and being a slayer, you have the strength.
Potentials have the slayer dreams, better reflexes, they are already marked as potentials, they already have the power within them.
Buffy and Willow didn't force the power into the girls, which was the rape metaphor from the previous episode, it was a completely different scenario.

Why would they show Buffy looking around at Slayers dying? It's fine if we interpret it differently I guess, she obviously makes a heroic comeback, but they weren't winning.

Your missing a scene, it didn't go from Buffy looking round at slayers dying to Spike going boom. Buffy got back up and knocked back the uber-vamps, the scene specifically shows the girls move from fighting to losing, when Buffy gets "gutted" and slayers die to a sudden resurgence of Buffy having no problem bouncing back, Faith overthrowing like 4 vamps, same for Kennedy and Rona.
At the particular moments the neckalace went off, Buffys gang was winning.

 

[Robb Stark]

Your missing a scene, it didn't go from Buffy looking round at slayers dying to Spike going boom. Buffy got back up and knocked back the uber-vamps, the scene specifically shows the girls move from fighting to losing, when Buffy gets "gutted" and slayers die to a sudden resurgence of Buffy having no problem bouncing back, Faith overthrowing like 4 vamps, same for Kennedy and Rona.
At the particular moments the neckalace went off, Buffys gang was winning.

Okay, I definitely forgot that scene.

That said, are they winning in the context of driving them back and making gains, or holding their own? I just don't believe, given the layout, that they were going to kill thousands of Turok-Han. I just can't realistically believe that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Okay, I definitely forgot that scene.

That said, are they winning in the context of driving them back and making gains, or holding their own? I just don't believe, given the layout, that they were going to kill thousands of Turok-Han. I just can't realistically believe that.

Dude, how could you forget THAT scene, it's like the scene, with the music and all that! lol

I mean I dont know about the overall fight, like had Spike not gone boom, I'd presume the fight would have gone in ebbs and flows.
But I also dont see the fight as the absolute end, like they didn't have to eradicate the army, the girls are basically 20+ super heroes so they could hold their own, we have no idea how long for as this kind of fight is new.
Had enough ubervamps been killed, they might have backed off, they were just soldiers, they had no stake (pun intended) in the outcome. It's not beyond the realm of reason they would have retreated.
Same for Buffy, had she suffered a few more causalities they could have retreated out of the hellmouth, they were perfectly positioned, they weren't surrounded, the area they were in was elevated and vamps could only get at that from about 60/70% of the way round, there was a wall behind them, with a exit.
Going off the logic that the more blood the seal has the longer it stays open, the seal was eventually going to close, they could have retreated and regrouped having taken a chunk of the ubervamps out and having made the Firsts plan of killing defenceless potentials harder.
Willow is presumably aware of the actual amount of slayers now, based on her connection to them, so they could have regrouped a stronger army.

I just dont see the need to see it as cut and dry as had the amulet not done anything the battle was over, I just cant see Buffy getting down to 2 slayers left and continuing to fight, she would have regrouped/reassessed before that.

(Also dont get me wrong, there are lots of flaws with the plan - absolutely no reason to go into the hellmouth unactivated - but the plan wasn't as stupid as people make it out to be)

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

Silverspike agrees: Imo they were barely holding their own.

Just to refer to the shooting scripts description of the scene where the girls fight back:

And the girls turn the tide,

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but the script literally says the they are turning the tide.

 

[The Bronze]

I've just realised that Buffy has a long history of not asking for consent from every person who might be affected by her actions. We know there are vampire worshippers but she never checks before saving people if they want to be turned.

When Acathla is going to suck the world into it's dimension Buffy doesn't take a vote before closing the portal. She denies everyone on the planet the opportunity to experience a new dimension.

The Mayor takes the Form of an old one and she doesn't check if there are any old one worshippers in Sunnydale before killing him.

Glory opens up all of the dimensions and Buffy selfishly closes them before anyone has the opportunity to explore.

Then in in Chosen she denies the potentials the opportunity to be entered by The First, gutted by a Bringer or eaten by an User Vamp.

I might have been looking at the show all wrong for ages and Buffy has been the villain all along.

 

[thetopher]

Okay well I said 6-1, which you then discounted, saying it was much more. Now it isn't?

This History channel's website estimated it was 5500 against 20, 000, a little less than 4-1. The reference is: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/battle-of-agincourt. Not trying to be rude, but I trust that more than an unnamed or referenced "actual historian". And even it was 6, or 20 to 1, that's still vastly better odds than what Buffy was facing.



I was speaking primarily about Agincourt, but quick checks showed that you inflated the numbers with regard to Rorke's Drift. BBC History (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/zulu_01.shtml) puts it at 140-3000. Very impressive still, but not quite the 5000 you claimed it was. The other battles you mentioned were nowhere near the numerical disparity Buffy was facing.

Plus, I'm not saying under the right conditions a smaller force can't win. Obviously it can. But the Turok-Han were a mindless force that never, ever would have quit. At Rorke's Drift the Zulu retreated after losing less than a thousand men. I don't think you can compare the Turok-Han in the same way. Plus, the chief benefit of a chokepoint defensive position is that you're rear and flanks are protected. Buffy was encircled.



Why would they show Buffy looking around at Slayers dying? It's fine if we interpret it differently I guess, she obviously makes a heroic comeback, but they weren't winning.

And I was emotive because you were condescending, something I've asked you to not be in different threads before. My posts generally aren't sharp towards those who don't tell me to "read a history book".



But tactics are influenced by the conditions and the enemy you face. That's a basic concept. If Buffy were facing 50 vampires with her 24 Slayers and Spike then the plan would not have been nearly as bad. Her plan in S3, which I haven't seen in a while, did not involve leading a small team against an enemy of thousands. It had her defeat Faith one-on-one and then lure the Mayor into a room full of explosives and blow him up. Her S4 plan involved boosting her own power to combat Adam. Those aren't similar to S7. The context is completely different. Why should her tactical analysis be the same as situations from her past that aren't parallel to what she's facing in S7?

Yeah, I'll take history books over television programs any day. History channel is...'popcorn history' would be the best way to describe it. Easy to digest but not very filling. 🙂

The BBC is a little more believable, but in actual fact at Rourke's Drift about 2000 Zulu warriors were killed or injured before they retreated, they were unbeleivably brave/ferocious opponents (known throughout that region of Africa for their aggression actually) it was an incredible achievement just to survive theit attacks.

And of course there is discrepance in the numbers because historians love to debate (kinda like the people on this board) but, again, my point still stands. Numbers don't always win the day, sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't.

I think maybe I condescended to you in one particular thread in the past, and then apologised. (It was about Batman/DC as I recall.) So please don't act like a victim or something, and make me out to be some badguy.

This time I saimply called you out for using Wikipedia which is, to many people, inaccurate when it comes to details. It is requently wrong and if you use it to back up your arguments, don't be surprised if somebody points out that your facts are wrong. 🙁

Buffy's 'plan' in season 3 was lead a bunch of ill-trained highschool students against a massive true demon and dozens of vampires.
See a connection.

And S4, the enjoining spell and the empowerment spell are basically the same tactic- power boost for the good guys without any foreknowledge about whether it was gonna work or not before the battle began.

Those are the similarities. 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

And the girls turn the tide,

What, 15 or so girls against thousands of Ubervamps? Dear god give me strength.

This was exactly one of the rubbish plot holes that I was thinking about when I said season 7 often didn't make sense.

They would have been overrun by sheer number alone, activated on not.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Okay guys, let's move on from the he said, she said and dissecting examples from history - if you guys want to hash it out, take it to pm's and work it out. We're getting into hurt feeling territory here and it would be nice to avoid it. Thanks 🙂

 

[danajsparks]

I've just realised that Buffy has a long history of not asking for consent from every person who might be affected by her actions. We know there are vampire worshippers but she never checks before saving people if they want to be turned.

Did you see my post on page 11?

I would like to try to clarify a few things....

From what I can tell, most (or at least many) of us agree that Buffy was not aware that that the activation spell would affect so many girls. As far as Buffy knew, the vast majority of the potentials had already been killed, and almost all of those still alive were with her in Sunnydale. Buffy didn't know that there were still thousands of potentials out there.

From what I can tell, most (though maybe not all) of us agree that Buffy probably did have the consent of the girls who were with her in Sunnydale.

So nobody is blaming Buffy. (Or at least I'm not.) Though there may be plenty to criticize about Buffy's overall strategy in S7, I personally don't believe that her decision to do the activation spell was morally wrong because the decision was based upon the information she had at the time. I'm not accusing Buffy of metaphorically raping thousands of girls, because I'm pretty sure that she was unaware that those girls even existed. For me, this isn't a question of whether or not Buffy made the right decision.

My problem is with how Joss wrote the story. He created a situation where thousands of girls had their bodies and psyches fundamentally altered without their knowledge or consent because he set up the story so that Buffy didn't even know about them.

I believe that Buffy's intent of the spell was good, but I believe that the consequences of the spell were still very problematic.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Let's stop the bickering all, for real.

 

[The Bronze]

Did you see my post on page 11?

I did and it's a good post. Buffy has been directly called the villain of the show in this thread though. Not by yourself but I was just exploring that mentality. I would say my post still makes the point that Joss has always written Buffy into situations that require making big decisions without the consent of all possible effected parties.

 

[danajsparks]

I did and it's a good post. Buffy has been directly called the villain of the show in this thread though. Not by yourself but I was just exploring that mentality. I would say my post still makes the point that Joss has always written Buffy into situations that require making big decisions without the consent of all possible effected parties.

OK... true... Buffy does often have to make big decisions on behalf of others. But... I don't think that means that it's always OK for her to make decisions without the consent of those affected. I think it very much depends upon the situation.

 

[The Bronze]

OK... true... Buffy does often have to make big decisions on behalf of others. But... I don't think that means that it's always OK for her to make decisions without the consent of those affected. I think it very much depends upon the situation.

I'd go along with that. I think when evil incarnate is carrying out the genocide of the slayer line and amassing an army to overrun the earth, it would be one of those times where Buffy is OK to make a big decision.