Comparing Scoobies: Demonic Apples and Oranges From Hell?

[Revolver]

Having read through several threads-worth of material about how some fans here hate Xander and cannot forgive some of the less-than-noble deeds he did throughout the series, I can't help but wonder why Xander earns so much fan hate while the other Scoobies who commit acts that are as morally questionable or moreso than Xander seem to mostly get a free-pass. I've made a lot of these points in the midst of other threads but this one is specifically about comparing the Scoobies and analyzing why individuals here are more inclined to be forgiving of some and not others. I'm going to point out several bad things other characters besides Xander have done and ask you to tell me why they don't warrant some kind of fan disdain. It's not about hating any of the characters that will be mentioned here, rather about demonstrating (and then likely debating) that there are plenty of awful things done by all of them. Xander is hardly the only Scooby to be imperfect. We'll start with Willow.

Willow and Xander are supposed to be Buffy's friends, which I think automatically makes fans hold them to a higher standard. And both are responsible for bringing her back to life on different occassions. And they are the only two characters aside from Buffy herself who are regulars in all seven seasons. They are the two most natural to compare.

I personally think in watching the shows that Xander starts off as an immature kid, who runs his mouth and makes some huge mistakes. However, he grows and becomes a much better man by the end of the series. Willow, however, is kind of at her highest point toward the beginning of the series and goes downhill through a sort-of drug (okay, magic) addiction and psychotic phase following Tara's death. In my opinion, it's easier to forgive Xander his teenage mistakes than Willow's homocidal loony-bin actions at the end of season 6. But fans seem to give Willow the benefit of the doubt and not Xander. Why?

NOTE: I'll get to more on the subject but I'm going to eat now and this gives someone else a chance to speak (write).

 

[Blondie Bear]

I generally hate Xander through the first 3 seasons. He starts to grow on me in S4, and through S5 and beyond, he's a much more bearable character. I think the reason I find it much easier to forgive Willow is that she apologizes. She feels bad. I never once heard Xander apologize for lying about Willow's message, for accusing Buffy of wanting to forget about Jenny to get her boyfriend back, for setting Faith on Angel, or for any of the crap he does in the first 3 seasons. Buffy always does the apologizing, and Xander forgives her, and that's it.

After S5, when he's perhaps grown up enough to understand that he seriously hurt people's feelings and went a long way toward undermining their friendship, it's kind of too late to bring it all back up again and apologize. That's one reason I wish they'd been able to hash out the "I never said that!" moment in "Selfless."

 

[VisionGuy]

I generally hate Xander through the first 3 seasons. He starts to grow on me in S4, and through S5 and beyond, he's a much more bearable character. I think the reason I find it much easier to forgive Willow is that she apologizes. She feels bad. I never once heard Xander apologize for lying about Willow's message, for accusing Buffy of wanting to forget about Jenny to get her boyfriend back, for setting Faith on Angel, or for any of the crap he does in the first 3 seasons. Buffy always does the apologizing, and Xander forgives her, and that's it.

That's why I dislike him as well.

 

[Revolver]

Okay, on that note (temporarily) moving on from Willow, what about Giles? Joyce? Giles doesn't seem to regret suggesting killing Dawn when Glory was about to unleash hell upon them, and he never really admits any fault for trying to kill Spike. Joyce kicks Buffy out of her home, and takes no responsibility for it. Rather, she simply blames Giles.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Joyce did take responsibility:

Buffy, you didn't give me time. You just dumped this thing on me and you expected me to get it. Well, guess what? Mom's not perfect, okay? I handled it badly. But that doesn't give you the right to punish me by running away.

And Giles believed that he was doing the right thing for the world. I can't believe that Xander believed his being nasty was doing the right thing, and if he did, well, I think even less of him (though, as I said, I don't think he thought that. I don't think he was thinking).

 

[sosa lola]

I never once heard Xander apologize for lying about Willow's message,

I think he did in S7. Not with words, but with actions. Taking Spike in, and trusting Buffy's judgment regarding him. I've always thought that this was Xander's way of apologizing, and it helped a lot more than the word "sorry". By letting go of his prejudice towards Spike, he was able to help Buffy in ways Anya, Dawn, and Willow -who'd accused Spike of going bad- by figuring out that Spike was triggered. Everybody aside from Xander and Buffy did nothing but blame Spike, until Xander thought objectively about it and found the reason behind Spike's killing.

Would a S6!Xander do this?

for accusing Buffy of wanting to forget about Jenny to get her boyfriend back, for setting Faith on Angel, or for any of the crap he does in the first 3 seasons.

Xander does admit that he's a lousy friend when it comes to Buffy's relationship with Angel.

Xander: (abashed) Look, I'm aware I haven't been the mostest best friend to you when it comes to the whole Angel thing, and, um, I don't know, maybe I finally got the Chanukah spirit.

And after that point, he starts to be more supportive toward Bangel:

He helps Buffy to save Angel in Amends.

He sincerely asks Buffy and Angel if they needed help in the Zeppo, they were obviously having relationship issues.

He's rushing Oz and Willow to give the solution to save Angel in Graduation Part 1:

Xander: Come on guys, the suspense is killing Angel.

 

[SeeingBlue]

Xander was being a dick, Willow had an addiction. Since Willow apologized many times, and went to "rehab", I think it can be forgiven. Xander does made stupid decisions affecting other people's lives forever based on jealousy, and never really just said "sorry". Willow wins.

 

[sosa lola]

Xander was being a dick, Willow had an addiction. Since Willow apologized many times, and went to "rehab", I think it can be forgiven. Xander does made stupid decisions affecting other people's lives forever based on jealousy, and never really just said "sorry". Willow wins.

What were the decisions he'd made that affected people's lives forever and didn't say sorry about?

"Kick his ass"? Buffy was surrounded by vampires when Angel pulled the sword, she'd have to send him to hell anyway. And eventually he came back.

Helping Faith kill Angel? Didn't work, Angel was still alive.

The only mistake Xander made that caused people to die and didn't apologize for was summoning Sweet. And apparently, he'd learned from this mistake, seeing as he'd used it as an example to lecture Dawn about casting unsupervised spells in Older and Far Away.

So, I don't see those decisions that affected people's lives that he didn't apologize for.

 

[SeeingBlue]

i was mainly talking about the "kick his ass" thing. the situation definitely could have been handled differently if buffy had known that willow was in the process of doing the spell. it maybe would've even saved angel, meaning he wouldn't have had to endure hundreds of years in hell, buffy wouldn't have run away, etc. his decision was selfish.

 

[sosa lola]

i was mainly talking about the "kick his ass" thing. the situation definitely could have been handled differently if buffy had known that willow was in the process of doing the spell. it maybe would've even saved angel, meaning he wouldn't have had to endure hundreds of years in hell, buffy wouldn't have run away, etc. his decision was selfish.

Perhaps, it would've happened differently, perhaps it won't. Like I said, Buffy was surrounded by many vampires to be able to get to Angel before he'd pulled out the sword.

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

Well even if Buffy knew about the spell it would have made the situation harder, because at that point Buffy was FINALLY ready to kill Angelus, however if she knew in the back of her mind that Willow was trying the spell again and there was a possibility Angel would return, she might not have fought him as hard and could have potentially died in that battle, because she wouldn't have given it her all, because she'd be waiting for the spell to kick in. So Xander's "kick his ass," may have simply been a blessing in disguise, because as Whistler told her only Angelus being sent to hell would be the only way to stop the portal from opening, so she would've had to get rid of him anyway.

 

[Blondie Bear]

We've had the "kick his ass" debate in another thread, though it may be buried by now. I still think that, regardless of the outcome, Xander's message was incredibly selfish and it was horrible of him to use Willow like that.

 

[sosa lola]

We've had the "kick his ass" debate in another thread, though it may be buried by now. I still think that, regardless of the outcome, Xander's message was incredibly selfish and it was horrible of him to use Willow like that.

I've always seen it as a last second thought. He was about to tell Buffy the truth, but when she'd lost her resolve and appeared hopeful, he backed down, and lied. It was fear mingled with anger and hatred. He looked quite upset with himself and guilty after he'd said and by the end of the episode. I guess later he thought that he'd done the right thing.

 

[Perny]

I actually never really hated Xander for "Kick his ass". Not really. The more I think about it, the more I think he was right. Xander didn't really like Angel, which in some aspect gave him insight the others did not have. Angel had turned evil, and if he got his soul back...then what? Would they all just pretend nothing had happened? Would they ignore the ticking bomb Angel was? Xander knew that they couldn't know when Angel would get another 'happy', and after seeing what he was capable of it was obvious that Angel was better of dead. Xander didn't do this of selfish reasons, no matter what people say. He was trying to protect his friends. Jenny Calendar had already been killed, and it could be one of them next time. And if Angel had lived, there was a possible next time.

Slay me, or flay me now, I don't care 😛

 

[Fake Shemp]

I woulda been the first to say KICK HIS ASS, and stand by Xander too

I don't get where some fans get off on their hate for xander, he was the funny wise cracking kid at first, fine if you don't like characters like that in shows, then your shows must be boring.... its like some Buffy fans have a blind spot and don't mention all the actual BAD EVIL things other characters have done, Xander has not done any of these.

But then I actually like the normal guy in the show and don't lust after vampires who kill people.... guess I'm odd (sw)

 

[fly on the wall]

I personally think in watching the shows that Xander starts off as an immature kid, who runs his mouth and makes some huge mistakes. However, he grows and becomes a much better man by the end of the series. Willow, however, is kind of at her highest point toward the beginning of the series and goes downhill through a sort-of drug (okay, magic) addiction and psychotic phase following Tara's death. In my opinion, it's easier to forgive Xander his teenage mistakes than Willow's homocidal loony-bin actions at the end of season 6. But fans seem to give Willow the benefit of the doubt and not Xander. Why?

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head right there. Willow starts out great, she pulls at our heartstrings right away; she's the adorable, intelligent, picked-on geeky girl who's sweet as sugar and fiercely loyal to her friends from the get-go. Xander, in the beginning, is harder to love. And he does some pretty reprehensible things that, I'll be honest, completely rub me the wrong way. So a lot of viewers already have this rubbed-wrong feeling about Xander, and it takes more effort to see his good qualities. Is that fair? No, not one bit. But that at least kind of explains it.

To me, it's easier to forgive Willow for suffering, grieving, acting irrationally out of pain, and developing an addiction than it is to forgive Xander for being a general immature pain in the ass for 3/4 years. We do tend to hold Buffy's friends on a higher level of expectations than we should, but that comes with the territory.

From the very first episode of the series, Xander annoys me. His whole "less of a man" tiff really gets under my skin. His friend being in life-threatening danger, and a girl he just met who happens to be able to fight off demons, has nothing to do with him being less of a man and it irritates me to no end when he makes that situation about him. And it just goes on from there. His hatred of Angel for superficial reasons (him being a vampire, Buffy liking him), the "kick his ass" comment, the way he completely ignores Willow's advances until Willow likes somebody else, the way he plots against Angel and totally gangs up on Buffy about it...and the worst part of all this is, HE NEVER SAYS SORRY. Buffy and the others just forgive him because he's Xander, and that's enough. But it's not enough for me. As someone else has already said, Willow repents. She goes to rehab, she's forced to turn into the man she killed, she goes back to Sunnydale and has to face her friends, she gets better, she mourns healthily, she grows. Xander doesn't even say a two syllable word, "sorry," to anyone.

By the end of the fourth season though, I can tolerate Xander. There are even shining moments in the remaining seasons where I like and love him. But because of those first few seasons, where the characters were finding their niches and setting boundaries and introducing themselves to the audience, Xander annoys me. When he does something wrong in later seasons (like say, leaving my favorite character at the altar!!) I don't have many happy moments to look back on and tell myself, "But oh, he's a really sweet, good person deep down." I have a whole bunch of moments where he does immature, unfair, annoying and hateful things to people with no consequences. And so yes, I am a bit unfair to Xander, as a lot of people are. But those are the reasons why, at any rate.

 

[sosa lola]

Xander does start as an immature kid, but eventually ends up being a calm, mature young man. To be honest, I liked him better in the earlier seasons, he was much more fun 😀 But I loved the man he became, guess they all have to grow up eventually.

But then I actually like the normal guy in the show and don't lust after vampires who kill people.... guess I'm odd (sw)

Yay for the normal guys! 😀 They can take us to the beach in the middle of the day, and we can get tanned together. 😉

 

[Willow-Tree]

This is my analysis on each of the Scoobies:

Buffy - She was definitely strongest at the end of the series. She was a little naive in her high school years, but that's understandable, because no mater how strong she was, she was also a sixteen year/seventeen year old girl.

Xander - I find him more enjoyable as a character in the first three seasons, but he's definitely improved as a character in the latter ones.

Willow - I generally love her in all seasons, but she really shines as a powerful woman in the seventh. She began as a cute, immature yet extremely intelligent girl, and evolved into the most powerful Scooby, able to dominate the world if she wished to.

Cordelia - Since this is a Scooby discussion, and she really didn't evolve as a character until Angel, I'll just leave it as she was a very, very entertaining character.

Giles - He never really changes... I actually think he's a better character in the beginning seasons, and then again when he's Buffy's Watcher.

Anya - She starts out evil, then goes good, then goes back to evil, and then goes to good again. That said, her character has been on probably the bumpiest road regarding character transformation. She replaced Cordelia as the blunt, sarcastic, quick-witted one, but still had a lot of heart in her.

Dawn - Definitely a stronger, overall better character in the seventh season.

Andrew - He didn't really have enough time to develop in the show, but he's at his strongest in the comics.

Spike - Obviously, he was the most helpful in the seventh season. I enjoyed him the most in the sixth, but whatever.

Angel - Like Cordy, he developed the most in his own series, but like Anya, he also had a bumpy road to recovery.

Tara - The most powerful in her last season on the show. She finally stood up for herself.