Condoning a Crime

[LadyLavinia]

There's a reason the judge of souls in Egyptian mythology used a scale to weigh the souls of the departed. They knew, as we should, that we all do bad and good in our time. Attempting to do good and failing isn't hypocracy...it's a reason to not stop. It's always easier to give up and let inertia rule, but truly good people keep on attempting to do the right thing...of course, what is right in any situation is subjective, to some extent. Thus, grey, grey, grey...

I have no problems with the ME writers showing that the main characters can be evil.

I have a problem with many of the shows' fans who seem more willing to dismiss the characters' dark actions or make up lame reasons to excuse or condone their actions.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

It's not about the main characters being evil, just about them committing acts that could be considered evil acts, but the characters themselves are not evil. I've never stated that the characters of Angel's didn't commit actions that were dark and I don't excuse the killing of an innocent, but I can't help but side with the characters as being mainly entities of "good".

 

[nerd4hire]

I have no problems with the ME writers showing that the main characters can be evil.

I have a problem with many of the shows' fans who seem more willing to dismiss the characters' dark actions or make up lame reasons to excuse or condone their actions.

A flawed character does a flawed thing. The seasoned viewer realizes things aren't always black and white. He reasons with himself and decides whether or not the action can be forgiven, given the circumstances. He decides it can be.

Did you ever consider the possibility it's you that has the problem understanding the complexity? Are you sure that's something you want to draw attention to? I mean we'll ultimately forgive you, because we're intelligent people capable of understanding there's some stuff some viewers just don't get. Still...

 

[LadyLavinia]

A flawed character does a flawed thing. The seasoned viewer realizes things aren't always black and white. He reasons with himself and decides whether or not the action can be forgiven, given the circumstances. He decides it can be.

Did you ever consider the possibility it's you that has the problem understanding the complexity? Are you sure that's something you want to draw attention to? I mean we'll ultimately forgive you, because we're intelligent people capable of understanding there's some stuff some viewers just don't get. Still...

Spare me! Have you read some of the excuses fans have posted about the actions of the main characters? They're not from people who understand the show's complex morality. They're from people who refuse to acknowledge that their favorite characters are capable of such things. And when these characters do commit dark deeds, the fans go to such lengths to excuse or dismiss them.

I'm a fan of Spike. In fact, he is my favorite character. But unlike other Spike fans, I didn't cry foul when he attempted to rape Buffy in "Seeing Red". Other Spike fans had accused ME of screwing with his character, claiming that by late S6, he was incapable of such an action. I knew better. I knew he was capable of such a thing. I didn't try to blind myself from his flaws and neither did other certain fans. But the majority of Spike fans had refused to acknowledge this.


No matter how much I may like a character, whenever he or her commit a dark act, I believe it should be acknowledged that he/she are capable of it, and should pay the price for their actions in the story - somehow.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

Spare me! Have you read some of the excuses fans have posted about the actions of the main characters? They're not from people who understand the show's complex morality. They're from people who refuse to acknowledge that their favorite characters are capable of such things. And when these characters do commit dark deeds, the fans go to such lengths to excuse or dismiss.

I want examples of these posts because I see mainly intelligent posts regarding this issue from the supportive and intuitive fans we have on this board. 😀

 

[LadyLavinia]

I want examples of these posts because I see mainly intelligent posts regarding this issue from the supportive and intuitive fans we have on this board. 😀

Why don't you consider reading some of the posts on this forum? A good example would be the thread for "I Will Remember You".

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

I have read that thread...I've posted in it quite a few times...and I've stated my opinion many times on how I believe Angel acted correctly in that situation. It's a morally ambiguous situation, especially since it cannot happen in real life. How about examples from issues that it cannot be disputed that the characters acted in an evil manner?

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm a fan of Spike. In fact, he is my favorite character. But unlike other Spike fans, I didn't cry foul when he attempted to rape Buffy

And yet...correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one who got angry when souled-Spike decided to turn over a new leaf, and help Angel's Avengers. In fact didn't you call the great Drew Goddard a bad writer, because in your mind he didn't understand the character.

And aren't you the Fred-bad, Lilah-good person.

It just seems to me you're much more ready to excuse actions of evil.

You'll have to explain to me how that is a more intelligent, world view than the one the majority of viewers have, when they do stuff like excuse Angel for turning back time to save the woman he loved.

Are you saying it's OK for the bad guys to make mistakes, but not the good guys?

 

[killerdwarf]

Spare me! Have you read some of the excuses fans have posted about the actions of the main characters? They're not from people who understand the show's complex morality. They're from people who refuse to acknowledge that their favorite characters are capable of such things. And when these characters do commit dark deeds, the fans go to such lengths to excuse or dismiss them.

Sure it's easy to dismiss posts you've managed to ignore...like all the ones that disagree with you and actually back up their opinions! Impugning the ability of people to understand the complex issues at hand if they disagree is just another way to dodge rebutting the issues they raise, just like ignoring it!

No matter how much I may like a character, whenever he or her commit a dark act, I believe it should be acknowledged that he/she are capable of it, and should pay the price for their actions in the story - somehow.

Gee, and that never happened, right? Gunn never lost Fred, Angel was never tortured by his conscience or memory, Faith never went to prison, Buffy never felt guilt for treating Spike like crap...yeah, they all got away with it. ME has been very good at letting it's heroes see the consequences of their actions, good and bad. They have also allowed the characters to redeem themselves, something we as viewers can accept as adequate, or, in your case, inadequate.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

Just on the topic of "shades of gray" I watched Habeas Corpses last night and found this quote to be interesting:

WESLEY
(turns, walks away) After what I saw last night, I believe a day of reckoning has arrived.

LILAH
(flippantly) And you just reckon you'll toss in with the good guys? (crosses her arms)

WESLEY
(faces her) I'm choosing a side.

LILAH
And the girl of your dreams just happens to be on it. (cocks her head) Hmm. What are the odds?

WESLEY
This isn't about Fred. Or anyone else, for that matter. It's about right and wrong.

LILAH
And you have such a clear grip on those concepts.

WESLEY
I've made mistakes.

LILAH
(lowly, earnestly) You're making a big one now. (softens, walks up to him, puts her arms around his neck) I could wear the glasses again.

WESLEY
Don't embarrass yourself. (she pulls away) There is a line, Lilah. Black and white, good and evil.

LILAH
Funny thing about black and white— (walks away) you mix it together and you get gray. (faces him) And it doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but gray. And I don't see your Texas-gal-pal wearing that color. Come to think of it, she prefers black. (walks out of the apartment)

 

[Jenny]

I have a problem with many of the shows' fans who seem more willing to dismiss the characters' dark actions or make up lame reasons to excuse or condone their actions.

Hmm do you think that the majority of the shows fans are perhaps more open-minded than you are and can see that these characters are supposed to be human (for the most part) and thus are fallable? That everyone makes mistakes and that those mistakes can be repented? That we don't write off a character as worthless because they made a bad choice, or were misinformed, or caught up in the moment, just like we do on a daily basis?

 

[Hitome]

Why is admitting that your favorite character is a complex, maybe even twisted person who fights for good but is capable of horrible things so hard for some people to do? Why is admitting that Angel is not a person you would like to have a relationship with because he is patronizing and controlling somehow imply that you don't like the show? I personally think that Angel was never a good enough person to deserve Buffy's or Cordy's love, but that doesn't matter because they loved him anyway and Cordy at least was well aware of his faults.

I get what LadyLavinia is trying to say in this post even if other people here don't. She isn't trying to insult the shows or imply that all the characters need to be better people and less complex. She just would like people to acknowledge that a specific action a character commits is bad regardless of what other good actions the character commits.

I personally think both Angel and Wesley are highly controlling and do not treat women very well. This doesn't mean that they are not friends with individual women, just that they are certainly not entirely good men. Angel as a tv show likes to mix notions of evil and good. Wesley in S4 recognized that he was somewhat evil, but made a conscious decision that even if he was damned to Hell, he would still fight for good. Lilah fights for evil, but at the same time is a sympathetic character and a basically good woman instead of a monster. Wesley is attracted to her and identifies with her in part because she has fallen like him. Also, because he recognized her goodness and wants to save her from what she has become. (Remember his hallucinated conversation with Lilah before he beheaded her corpse).

Soulless Spike is by definition incapable of understanding morality and goodness, so blaming souled Spike for his actions is wrong. That soulless Spike does good things out of love is fascinating. I, however, make a very sharp distinction between the vampire and the person. In Buffy and Angel the soul is the essence since it is not present in the vampire a dead person can never be responsible for a vampire's actions. Angel's personality influenced Angelus but Angel's essence, his soul is not to blame for anything that Angelus did. The same goes for Spike. Once Spike gained a soul he became a human who although once dead was ripped out of the afterlife and forced into his old body, acquiring the memories of a vampire. I think that ripping William out of heaven probably counts as a very evil act on some level, which explains why so far no "good" magic wielding creature has made a souled vampire.

I am completely off topic, but I think that it is important that we acknowledge that considering a character who serves good evil is not a false way to look at things, and neither is considering this character good but extremely flawed.
The thing that bothers me is when people try to "make ends justify the means" or "greater good" arguments to explain why someone is a "good" person. It also bothers me when people confuse admirable with good. In the Whendonverse very few people dealing with demons can hope to remain "good." The decisions they make are just too hard. That doesn't mean however that the people who commit morally repugnant acts are not admirable people fighting against evil the best way they know how.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Thank you, Hitome. You said it perfectly.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

It was only perfect because you agree with it.

I think Hitome makes great arguements, they're well thought and persuasive and I certainly don't disagree with everything that was stated but I can appreciate a good point when I see one, no matter who's side I'm trying to defend 😀

 

[nerd4hire]

Actually, I thought Hitome made some good points too.

I also liked them the first time I saw them by the other posters on this thread.

The characters of Angel/Buffy are complex. They do the things to things they do for complex reasons.

Where I differ with Hitome though is when she says, "The thing that bothers me is when people try to "make ends justify the means" or "greater good" arguments to explain why someone is a "good" person".

The end may not justify the means in all cases, nor is the greater good arguement always correct, nevertheless they are examples of how one might explain the motivations of the characters.

For example one might be a fan of the Buffy/Angel forever love scenario. He might understand from that viewpoint why Angel would shift realities to save the women he loved in I Will Remember You. He's not saying shifting realities is necessarily a good or moral thing to do. He's saying given the circumstances he understands why a character like Angel would behave the way he did.

If that point is made over and over again and someone debates it by saying something that sounds like "you're too stupid to understand that Angel is evil on a core level when he does what he does. Only I am intelligent enough to see the truth of this", that person isn't saying, the characters are complex, and one must consider all sides of Angel's complex motivation. That person is saying exactly what was in the quotation marks I just offered above.

 

[Blessed]

Buffy dusting a vampire is definetly not crime. That doesn't even make sense to say she shouldn't have killed the evil vampire. She is the slayer. Angel had a soul so his case was different. When he turned evil she did what needed to be done. Spike had a chip which allowed him to be a useful tool the scooby gang could use against fighting evil. When there was no chip Buffy tried to slay him. Spike having a soul gave him a reason to "live" again. He could now seek redemption and be a player for the forces of good.
Forgiveness is a very important trait that we should posses. For we are not perfect. And to persecute/judge someone for every little injustice would be wrong against human nature(compassion). Of course people should not get away with all evil intentions. Faith took the responsibitly upon herself to do what was right. She had committed a crime and willingly went to jail. She could have been wondering about but she gave up her freedom to help bring justice into the world. Buffy was not forgiven at first for bringing the gang and potentials to the vineyard. They did not lke the outcome and kicked her out of her own house. She did not get any slack from the team except from Spike. Cordelia was not forgiven by Angel at first for sleeping with Connor. He was pissed off, for lack of a better term. But in the end Angel knew, in his heart, that forgiveness was the better path to take. He loved her good and her bad. By not forgiving part of you turns cold because you are hardening your heart to accepting mistakes made by others.