Confederate Flag

[NY State of Mind]

What do you personally think about the use and meaning of the Confederate Flag?

 

[white avenger]

As a Southerner, I will say that the Confederate flag is simply a part of our past and a part of our culture. I've never seen it as being synonymous with racism or slavery, though I accept the fact that others do, and I realize that there are people in this nation and throughout the world who are offended by it, and in an effort not to offend those people, I do not display it on anything that I own. I do, however, believe that it is somewhat shallow minded that an entire national history, short though it was, should be judged by a single issue, shameful as that issue might be.

Though not part of the actual question, I would like to point out that the period comprising the Civil War and the period known as the Reconstruction Period was without a doubt the most shameful
part of the history of the United States, and that shame was equally shared by both the Southern and Northern States. It has been said that there are no true winners in war, and nowhere is that exemplified more that the American Civil War.

 

[zobothehobo]

To me, the confederate flag symbolizes a time in our country (and my state)'s history that I am not proud of. Nevermind the fact that none of my relatives were here and fought... it's still a period of time that I don't think should be celebrated. Learned about? Yes. Celebrated? No. When I see someone celebrating with the flag, it makes me sick. And I don't buy into that ridiculous argument that it's a celebration of southern pride. That flag is a symbol of the confederacy... and yes, that means the south... but it doesn't mean the south-eastern US. It means a different country that the states of the south-eastern US split off to make after a president that was in support of abolition was elected president. And that's an important distinction to make. As someone who was born and raise in the south, I find it offensive. VERY offensive. I would prefer we celebrate the south by making good food, being really nice and hospitable to people, eating honeysuckles, and playing damn good country music.

 

[arabella]

This will likely be an unpopular opinion, but we United Statesians have done some equally atrocious things under the current Stars and Stripes and yet we celebrate and wave it none-the-less. I grew up in the south. I know that to many the confederate flag represented being pro-slavery, but to others it represented fighting government control. Slavery is abominable, but so it mass murder via atom bomb nevermind that both benefited a large number of people.

That said, I, like White Avenger, have never owned or displayed a confederate flag. It's a part of history. A symbol that means different things to different people. I think the individual intention of the person wearing the flag is more important than the actual flag.

 

[kittenpoker]

I don't think I know enough to have a truly informed intellectual response, I'm sure the meaning behind the flag (and all symbols are just that, symbols) are multi layered and varied and different to each individual, but my visceral reaction is to shudder and want to look away.

 

[Goby]

I'm anti-Confederate Flag. I think it a symbol of hatred.

But I am pro-Atomic bomb. 🙄

And I agree with [MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION] regarding the US Flag. We've done some pretty crappy things. And most of my friends who call me a "United Statesian" think so, too.

 

[BuffyElevated]

As a Southerner, I will say that the Confederate flag is simply a part of our past and a part of our culture. I've never seen it as being synonymous with racism or slavery, though I accept the fact that others do, and I realize that there are people in this nation and throughout the world who are offended by it, and in an effort not to offend those people, I do not display it on anything that I own. I do, however, believe that it is somewhat shallow minded that an entire national history, short though it was, should be judged by a single issue, shameful as that issue might be.

Though not part of the actual question, I would like to point out that the period comprising the Civil War and the period known as the Reconstruction Period was without a doubt the most shameful
part of the history of the United States, and that shame was equally shared by both the Southern and Northern States. It has been said that there are no true winners in war, and nowhere is that exemplified more that the American Civil War.

I totally agree; [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] once again proves to me that he is a wise man. 🙂 The bolded part pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about the Confederate flag. To me, I see it as a symbol of my Southern heritage. I'm proud of the Southern hospitality and way of life that I was raised with, so when I see that flag, that's what I think of. However, I do understand why so many people are bothered by the flag, so I don't fly it or wear it on clothing or anything.

 

[Kean]

As an outsider I can say that from what I know of the flag and how it is depicted in the media, it is shown, in my opinion, to be a flag of hatred and discrimination.

That is not all of what the flag represents, as many people have illustrated here, but it is very hard to get away from the abhorrent connections to such a shameful portion of history that that flag has come to represent.

But I must say, I think you will struggle to find any national or regional flag that doesn't, all at once, encourage both pride and hate in different people.

 

[xfivebyfive]

To me the flag represents slavery. It doesnt represent the south. They werent just fighting the government they were fighting so that they could keep on having slaves.

I guess the swastika should be ok then cause I dont see much of a difference between someone wearing a swastika or waving a confederate flag. Truth is they are both tainted, just like the word Fag. You can't undo what theyve become associated with. And to me if knowing what everyone associates it you still use it then youre supporting that.

 

[arabella]

The swastika also has a history that precedes the Nazis. I think, just like with the confederate and US flags, that it is more about the belief of the individual who possesses the symbol rather than the symbol itself.

Many atrocities have been committed under the cross, should it be as vilified as the swastika? I'd say no. My issue is that it was okay all over the world to own humans and commit genocide...that has nothing to do with the confederate flag or the swastika, in my opinion.

 

[white avenger]

To me the flag represents slavery. They werent just fighting the government they were fighting so that they could keep on having slaves.

The Civil War, despite what we "know" to be the truth today, was never directly about slavery. Like most wars through the history of Mankind, it was fought for purely economic reasons, but it sounds much better to say that the Union destroyed the Confederacy in order to free the slaves.

This is not the format to analyze and interpret a subject of this complexity, but I will say this. History is written by the victors, strictly from their own viewpoint and supporting strictly their own beliefs. The journals and diaries kept by people living in the South during that time and afterward tell a much different story than what is taught in school. Which version is actually true? Neither and both. The truth certainly lies somewhere in between. But depicting the Confederacy as a nation formed strictly for the purpose of maintaining the existence of slavery is absurd.

 

[randiann]

Thank you [MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION] for bringing that up about the swastika. Wasn't only a Nazi symbol.

I think what [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] said about "any flag" pretty much sums it up. I could bring up hundreds of atrocities committed under the British flag, Spanish flag, or practically any other flag or banner. The cross was used by the KKK to spread hatred, not to mention the hundreds of horrible acts committed under Jesus' name for "good". Doesn't mean I'd advocate banning his name or condemn Christianity for using the symbol of the cross.

For me, see @white advenger for an intelligent answer. I usually think of what some might call "country folk" when I see someone sporting the symbol, but not slavery. It depends on what the individual wants it to represent. It means a lot of things to a lot of different people, but has no real meaning to me other than a symbol of the past....my state's not as "southern" as some other posters though.


/end ramble.

 

[PassionBecoming]

I don't think I know enough to have a truly informed intellectual response, I'm sure the meaning behind the flag (and all symbols are just that, symbols) are multi layered and varied and different to each individual, but my visceral reaction is to shudder and want to look away.

Ditto this. I can't really comment from any educated stand point, as being from Minnesota I'm about as far away from the south as you can get. Though I always think of the Dukes of Hazard when I see one...

 

[xfivebyfive]

The swastika also has a history that precedes the Nazis. I think, just like with the confederate and US flags, that it is more about the belief of the individual who possesses the symbol rather than the symbol itself.

Thats exactly why I chose the Swastika. Yes it did have a history before it. But if you saw someone with a Swastika tatoo you would automatically think they were a neo nazi. The fact of the matter is that the Confederate flag and the swastika are symbols of these atrocities. These people used these symbols as their own symbols. They redefined them and you cant erase what theyve become.

 

[patriot1123]

I don't associate the Confederate flag with slavery, because the Civil War (or, as some of my friends call it, the War of Northern Aggression) was not about slavery.

But, because the flag does represent slavery to some, whether they are correct or not, it should not be displayed, out of respect for those folks' feelings.

 

[randiann]

Thats exactly why I chose the Swastika. Yes it did have a history before it. But if you saw someone with a Swastika tatoo you would automatically think they were a neo nazi. The fact of the matter is that the Confederate flag and the swastika are symbols of these atrocities. These people used these symbols as their own symbols. They redefined them and you cant erase what theyve become.

But they only redefine it because that group lost. For example, England (no offense meant to my English buddies) colonized several countries, and thousands of indigenous people were killed as a consequence. Cultures were anihilated (sp), as were languages. How many Irish still speak Gaelic, for example? Not very many. Why? Because England and its agents exercised acts of cultural genocide against the Irish and several others. We don't associate the flag of England as a sign of hate though. Why? Because they. "Won". A symbol cannot be bastardized as representing one specific thing if it has multiple meanings to various people, and I think blaming the symbol for what it may or may not represent takes away the blame from the people who commited the actual atrocities. A swastika never killed people, and neither did a flag. People killed/enslaved/insert horriffic crime here-d people.



*disclaimer: someone could theoretically be killed with a. Swastika shaped weapon, or strangled with a flag. Which would make for an awesome action sequence in a movie.......but I digress.......

 

[ticonderouga]

Saying that slavery wasn't the direct cause of the American Civil War, while technically true, was the underlying cause of the war. You can talk about various tariffs and industrialization all you want, but slavery was the direct cause of the secession which is the direct cause of the war. That was the issue that had divided North and South since the Revolution, and it was the issue that everyone feared in the antebellum period. If slavery had been abolished with the ratification of the US Constitution (as it nearly was) or slowly phased out, which is what happened in most northern states, I do not think the war would have been fought. While the individual Confederate soldiers weren't really fighting to preserve slavery, it was the reason the Confederacy was formed in the first place, and hence the reason the war was fought. It was even written into the CSA Constitution that the institution of slavery would be protected in perpetuity.

Interesting historical side not: What people think of as the Confederate flag (Blue St Andrew's Cross, on a red field with white stars in the cross) was not the official flag of the CSA? The official CSA flag looked a lot like the US flag, (it had fewer stripes though both were bigger, which is why it was called the Stars and Bars) which is why they adopted a different Battle Flag, to distinguish the Union and Confederate army.

 

[Goby]

The swastika also has a history that precedes the Nazis. I think, just like with the confederate and US flags, that it is more about the belief of the individual who possesses the symbol rather than the symbol itself.

Many atrocities have been committed under the cross, should it be as vilified as the swastika? I'd say no. My issue is that it was okay all over the world to own humans and commit genocide...that has nothing to do with the confederate flag or the swastika, in my opinion.

I disagree. As someone who follows a religion where the swastika has special meaning, I stay away from it. The Nazis tainted it forever. It is a symbol of hatred and death. It was in 1933-1945, and it still is today. I feel the same about the confederate flag.

Here's two symbols of my religion, a lotus flower and a swastika. Unfortunately I will never have a Buddhist symbol in my house with a swastika.

 

[zobothehobo]

The Civil War, despite what we "know" to be the truth today, was never directly about slavery. Like most wars through the history of Mankind, it was fought for purely economic reasons, but it sounds much better to say that the Union destroyed the Confederacy in order to free the slaves.

This is not the format to analyze and interpret a subject of this complexity, but I will say this. History is written by the victors, strictly from their own viewpoint and supporting strictly their own beliefs. The journals and diaries kept by people living in the South during that time and afterward tell a much different story than what is taught in school. Which version is actually true? Neither and both. The truth certainly lies somewhere in between. But depicting the Confederacy as a nation formed strictly for the purpose of maintaining the existence of slavery is absurd.

Name me one reason for the civil war that doesn't come back to slavery. I'm not going to suggest that the civil war was directly about slavery... but indirectly about slavery is still about slavery. Example: At dinner the other night, my sister said someone complimented her on the way she looked that day. I gave her a confused look and said "huh" while I nodded my head. I didn't say she was ugly... or even directly imply it. But it was indirectly implied and suggested by my actions. Just because I didn't directly say it, does that make it less rude? No. I was being rude and mean to my sister. Just because the civil war wasn't directly about slavery doesn't make it less wrong. It was about slavery, indirect or not.

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

I disagree. As someone who follows a religion where the swastika has special meaning, I stay away from it. The Nazis tainted it forever. It is a symbol of hatred and death. It was in 1933-1945, and it still is today. I feel the same about the confederate flag.

Here's two symbols of my religion, a lotus flower and a swastika. Unfortunately I will never have a Buddhist symbol in my house with a swastika.

If you'll notice, the Buddhist symbol is the "reflection" of the Nazi symbol. It's backwards. And therefore, not the same symbol. Much like a flag backwards isn't that flag anymore.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

But they only redefine it because that group lost. For example, England (no offense meant to my English buddies) colonized several countries, and thousands of indigenous people were killed as a consequence. Cultures were anihilated (sp), as were languages. How many Irish still speak Gaelic, for example? Not very many. Why? Because England and its agents exercised acts of cultural genocide against the Irish and several others. We don't associate the flag of England as a sign of hate though. Why? Because they. "Won". A symbol cannot be bastardized as representing one specific thing if it has multiple meanings to various people, and I think blaming the symbol for what it may or may not represent takes away the blame from the people who commited the actual atrocities. A swastika never killed people, and neither did a flag. People killed/enslaved/insert horriffic crime here-d people.

A symbol can and will have individual meanings for every person. But a symbol is a symbol because society makes it that way. You cannot take every symbol outside of it's social context. A red rose can represent a lot. It can represent death, and life, happiness, sadness, anger... but in society, not in an individual's life, it means love. The confederate flag and the swastika can represent a lot, but in society as a whole... they mean the official symbols of The Confederate States of America and The Nazi Party respectively.

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

[MENTION=10790]Goby[/MENTION] agrees: It actually is found both ways in Buddhist, but mostly "backwards."

Oh. I didn't know that. Interesting.

 

[randiann]

A symbol can and will have individual meanings for every person. But a symbol is a symbol because society makes it that way. You cannot take every symbol outside of it's social context. A red rose can represent a lot. It can represent death, and life, happiness, sadness, anger... but in society, not in an individual's life, it means love. The confederate flag and the swastika can represent a lot, but in society as a whole... they mean the official symbols of The Confederate States of America and The Nazi Party respectively

It is true that they are the official symbols; I'm not saying that they aren't. But the flag doesn't automatically mean pro-slavery, just like a swastika on something doesn't automatically mean anti-Jew. They have various meanings, even though the majority of a population may associate them with certain connotations. I just think it's a little silly to blame a symbol or an inanimate object for somlething people did.