Cordy in Angel season 3

[Wesley Pryce]

Am I the only one who likes Cordy in Angel season 3? And I mean LIKES, not just "she was ok i guess". I have come across, on this site and some others, a lot of negative reaction to Cordelia is Angel season 3 and I don't agree with it. Cordy had an amazing evolution from the most shallow princess to the most mature, noble hero. She was honestly vastly more mature than the entire scooby gang including Giles(excluding Tara of course). Needed to vent..sorry 😛..so does anyone agree with me or am I alone in the universe again? Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[Mr Trick]

Am I the only one who likes Cordy in Angel season 3? And I mean LIKES, not just "she was ok i guess". I have come across, on this site and some others, a lot of negative reaction to Cordelia is Angel season 3 and I don't agree with it. Cordy had an amazing evolution from the most shallow princess to the most mature, noble hero. She was honestly vastly more mature than the entire scooby gang including Giles(excluding Tara of course). Needed to vent..sorry 😛..so does anyone agree with me or am I alone in the universe again? Looking forward to your thoughts.

To be honest I need to watch S3 again to fully comment. Its a great season imo and you are right she has matured a lot in it. But I think you hit on something with the last bit about her being more mature than the Scoobies. Part of what puts people off about Cordy in Angel I think is that they try and change her too much and so lose what made the character so good in the first place. As a result maybe it is hard for people to believe that it is still the same Cordy. I like her in Angel, but still think she is better in Buffy. There is lots of character growth and maturing in the three seasons on that show, but they balance it out with the comedy moments too. I personally think CC is a better comic actress than dramatic.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

To be honest I need to watch S3 again to fully comment. Its a great season imo and you are right she has matured a lot in it. But I think you hit on something with the last bit about her being more mature than the Scoobies. Part of what puts people off about Cordy in Angel I think is that they try and change her too much and so lose what made the character so good in the first place. As a result maybe it is hard for people to believe that it is still the same Cordy. I like her in Angel, but still think she is better in Buffy. There is lots of character growth and maturing in the three seasons on that show, but they balance it out with the comedy moments too. I personally think CC is a better comic actress than dramatic.

The reasons she changes so much on Angel is because she got the visions. This demands more than a mild progression, it made sense for Cordy to evolve very fast. Also it wasn't too fast it was three full seasons of fighting evil and having visions and watching her friend (Doyle) die. Lastly I just want to respectfully disagree with you about CC not being a great dramatic actor, I think she was great with the drama for the most part, everyone has a bad scene, but she had a great batting average.

 

[Mr Trick]

The reasons she changes so much on Angel is because she got the visions. This demands more than a mild progression, it made sense for Cordy to evolve very fast. Also it wasn't too fast it was three full seasons of fighting evil and having visions and watching her friend (Doyle) die. Lastly I just want to respectfully disagree with you about CC not being a great dramatic actor, I think she was great with the drama for the most part, everyone has a bad scene, but she had a great batting average.

No I get that, but maybe giving her the visions in the first place was a mistake storyline wise. It just felt like an excuse to turn her to the darker side so that she would have a bigger link to Angel later. It would be a bit like them giving Xander a super power just make him more like the other scobbies. He didn't need one and I'm not sure Cordy needed the visions.

On the other point I am not dismissing CC's dramatic talents at all I think she is convincing on that front, even more so in Angel it is just a personal choice that I engage with her comedy side more. The beauty of the character in both shows is that she has very straight talking side, mixed with some subtle humanistic moments, and then the comedy one-liners. In Buffy they manage to merge all those in the same character without having to change her too much.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I like Cordelia a lot in Season 3, but she isn't one of the most important features I think about when I think of S3 either. She's away with Groo for several weeks, the Connor/Holtz plotline becomes the dominant issue for most of the season, etc. There is of course the part about Cordelia becoming half-demon and setting into motion the events that happen in S4, and great episodes like Waiting in the Wings. I can understand how some people would prefer the funny, shallow Cordy from earlier years(I like her too), but I love mature, selfless, heroic Cordy most, and that really is Cordy from S3.

Part of what puts people off about Cordy in Angel I think is that they try and change her too much and so lose what made the character so good in the first place. As a result maybe it is hard for people to believe that it is still the same Cordy.

From what I've seen on the internet, it is Angel S4 where fans resent what is done to Cordy's character the most.

As far as the issue itself you point out, I love characters who continue to grow, evolve and change. Cordy grew and matured a lot on Buffy, but why would growth and change stop there? Growth and change accelerates after high school, not slows down. I agree, Cordy is very fun as the shallow entitled princess, but every period has its time and ends eventually. There are many characters I really like as they are in specific periods, but I have no problem (just in principle, if not in specific execution) with things changing suddenly anyway or gradually about their characters, because the only constant in life is change.

Fred changing into Illyria isn't a great example of what I mean (because Fred and Illyria are two different people) but I loved the idea of the evolution of that "character" from Fred into God-in-Fred's body-with-her-memories, etc. And I loved Fred as a character; she was one of my favorites on either show. But it was a great idea (the idea of Illyria was intriguing to me) and it stirred things up and kept things from settling down into a predictable state. This is more important to me than having reliable and consistent characters (characters who are more consistent than change) so I never saw Cordy's change, development, evolution, whatever you want to call it as anything but interesting and a welcome change, because I think they did it well with regard to Cordy (well, until S4...I didn't like what they did to Cordy S4).

 

[Francis Doyle]

Season 4 of Angel completely destroyed the character of Cordelia. I really like her in every other season, though. Even though it's revealed later that Cordelia wasn't actually saintlike enough to become a higher being in Season 3, and that it was all part of a fatalistic plan constructed by someone who was actually a higher being, I enjoyed watching her make the transition from 'vision girl' to 'goddess girl'. The downfall that followed from that was really disappointing.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

No I get that, but maybe giving her the visions in the first place was a mistake storyline wise. It just felt like an excuse to turn her to the darker side so that she would have a bigger link to Angel later. It would be a bit like them giving Xander a super power just make him more like the other scobbies. He didn't need one and I'm not sure Cordy needed the visions.

So you are not opposed to change in general (for Cordy), just this form of change right (the visions)? Because some people will say they want their characters to remain more or less the same, even over large periods of time. I can't express how boring this attitude is to me. And some might say that this lack of significant change was part of the problem with Xander (I know, I know, I won't get into it). I myself liked the idea of having Cordy gain the visions. But if that didn't happen, something needed to happen, because things staying more or less the same indefinitely is just boring.

 

[Yumisushipjs]

I think Xander himself felt this I know he was meant to be the "heart" of the group but it was sad that he was not allowed to develop as a character, in his romantic life or his career. He could have become a watcher, there must have been something else he could have done than be the jester of the group.

 

[thetopher]

I like Cordelia in the first half of the season just fine- especially episodes like 'That Vision Thing' and 'Billy' (I don't like her in 'Birthday' at all)

I think my liking of Cordelia peaked with 'Waiting In The Wings'- after that she has huge blinders on in 'Couplet' (she's supposed to be incredibly intuitive, especially when it comes to Angel, and yet she misses almost everything in this episode- its annoying) and then she goes away.

When she returns...I just don't like her. Her enhanced demon-ness becomes a deux ex machina, her disregard for her good friend Wesley (she never, ever attempts to contact him) is cold and out of character and her relationship with Groo/growing attraction to Angel becomes tiresome very quickly.
Poor Groo (who I don't particularly care for) just gets ignored until he finaly gets the message and bows out gracefully. It's actually kind of passive-aggressive on Cordy's part.

Then of course you have Skip appealing to her pride/special-ness (Cordelia's main character flaw is her ego) so she can ascend to a higher plane because she's so wonderful- and she completely buys it.
My problems with St. Cordy happens way before her S4 'arc'.

But I love her in 'You're Welcome'- that's the Cordelia Chase the heroine I wanted way back when. In 1 episode I realised how much I'd missed her, and then she was gone. 🙁

 

[Mr Trick]

So you are not opposed to change in general (for Cordy), just this form of change right (the visions)? Because some people will say they want their characters to remain more or less the same, even over large periods of time. I can't express how boring this attitude is to me. And some might say that this lack of significant change was part of the problem with Xander (I know, I know, I won't get into it). I myself liked the idea of having Cordy gain the visions. But if that didn't happen, something needed to happen, because things staying more or less the same indefinitely is just boring.

I don't think it hurt Xander's character at all. There may have been a lack of character growth in the later seasons but I don't think that is because of his lack of a superpower. There is only room for so many characters with special gifts across these shows. Xander's appeal is that he is the classic underdog figure who makes the best and of what he's got, and despite his flaws as a person, also shows remarkable bravery and loyality to make up for it, while also being very charming and funny. Cordy has the same qualities, she does grow as a human being on Angel so that proves for that a character can grow without needing massive changes to them.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I like Cordelia in the first half of the season just fine- especially episodes like 'That Vision Thing' and 'Billy' (I don't like her in 'Birthday' at all)

I think my liking of Cordelia peaked with 'Waiting In The Wings'- after that she has huge blinders on in 'Couplet' (she's supposed to be incredibly intuitive, especially when it comes to Angel, and yet she misses almost everything in this episode- its annoying) and then she goes away.

When she returns...I just don't like her. Her enhanced demon-ness becomes a deux ex machina, her disregard for her good friend Wesley (she never, ever attempts to contact him) is cold and out of character and her relationship with Groo/growing attraction to Angel becomes tiresome very quickly.
Poor Groo (who I don't particularly care for) just gets ignored until he finaly gets the message and bows out gracefully. It's actually kind of passive-aggressive on Cordy's part.

Then of course you have Skip appealing to her pride/special-ness (Cordelia's main character flaw is her ego) so she can ascend to a higher plane because she's so wonderful- and she completely buys it.
My problems with St. Cordy happens way before her S4 'arc'.

But I love her in 'You're Welcome'- that's the Cordelia Chase the heroine I wanted way back when. In 1 episode I realised how much I'd missed her, and then she was gone. 🙁

I love birthday, its one of the most important eps for Cordy. Its a defining moment for her character not to mention a very well written episode... anyways. 

No I get that, but maybe giving her the visions in the first place was a mistake storyline wise. It just felt like an excuse to turn her to the darker side so that she would have a bigger link to Angel later. It would be a bit like them giving Xander a super power just make him more like the other scobbies. He didn't need one and I'm not sure Cordy needed the visions.

On the other point I am not dismissing CC's dramatic talents at all I think she is convincing on that front, even more so in Angel it is just a personal choice that I engage with her comedy side more. The beauty of the character in both shows is that she has very straight talking side, mixed with some subtle humanistic moments, and then the comedy one-liners. In Buffy they manage to merge all those in the same character without having to change her too much.

She needed the visions to have "growth" not a "dark side". you're missoing the point here, the visions allowed her to experience the suffering of the people and thereby made her empathetic to people in general. It was not a mistake aty all, its one of the most interesting character arcs on either show. 

I like Cordelia in the first half of the season just fine- especially episodes like 'That Vision Thing' and 'Billy' (I don't like her in 'Birthday' at all)

I think my liking of Cordelia peaked with 'Waiting In The Wings'- after that she has huge blinders on in 'Couplet' (she's supposed to be incredibly intuitive, especially when it comes to Angel, and yet she misses almost everything in this episode- its annoying) and then she goes away.

When she returns...I just don't like her. Her enhanced demon-ness becomes a deux ex machina, her disregard for her good friend Wesley (she never, ever attempts to contact him) is cold and out of character and her relationship with Groo/growing attraction to Angel becomes tiresome very quickly.
Poor Groo (who I don't particularly care for) just gets ignored until he finaly gets the message and bows out gracefully. It's actually kind of passive-aggressive on Cordy's part.

Then of course you have Skip appealing to her pride/special-ness (Cordelia's main character flaw is her ego) so she can ascend to a higher plane because she's so wonderful- and she completely buys it.
My problems with St. Cordy happens way before her S4 'arc'.

But I love her in 'You're Welcome'- that's the Cordelia Chase the heroine I wanted way back when. In 1 episode I realised how much I'd missed her, and then she was gone. 🙁

also it wasn't deux ex machina, it was NEEDED for her to maintain the visions. They had been building up to this since late season 2. Come on, man. Only a demon, or part demon/ human hybrid can maintain the visions without serious physical ramifications. they have made this plain since early in the very first season

 

[Taake]

also it wasn't deux ex machina, it was NEEDED for her to maintain the visions. They had been building up to this since late season 2. Come on, man. Only a demon, or part demon/ human hybrid can maintain the visions without serious physical ramifications. they have made this plain since early in the very first season

Except they added some extras... like her "glowy" power... e.g. when she 'cleanses' Connor. That was not needed for her to maintain the visions.

They also made it clear in the first season that a part demon/part human since birth could just barely manage the visions...
...making Cordy part demon was a piss-poor excuse to have her stop screaming in pain and writhing on the floor. They just washed off everything that was troublesome about the visions and added some "cool features" to boot... that's a deux ex machina to me. Like everything in Angel from the end of season 2 and on, it wasn't very well planned or thought-out and not very good in practice.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Except they added some extras... like her "glowy" power... e.g. when she 'cleanses' Connor. That was not needed for her to maintain the visions.

They also made it clear in the first season that a part demon/part human since birth could just barely manage the visions...
...making Cordy part demon was a piss-poor excuse to have her stop screaming in pain and writhing on the floor. They just washed off everything that was troublesome about the visions and added some "cool features" to boot... that's a deux ex machina to me. Like everything in Angel from the end of season 2 and on, it wasn't very well planned or thought-out and not very good in practice.

Nonsensical, she was giving the extra features to TEST her. to see if she was indeed the vessel they wanted for Jasmine. Or if not then to prepare her to be said vessel. Either way it had a PURPOSE. And as for your snide remark about ATS, I'll let it slide, im not getting goated into a fight about buffy vs angel.

 

[Taake]

Nonsensical, she was giving the extra features to TEST her. to see if she was indeed the vessel they wanted for Jasmine. Or if not then to prepare her to be said vessel. Either way it had a PURPOSE. And as for your snide remark about ATS, I'll let it slide, im not getting goated into a fight about buffy vs angel.

Wasn't really intended as a snide remark or an intention to goad. In many ways I prefer Angel to Buffy but that doesn't mean that I think that the show is flawless.

As for your explanation it's just hilarious to me. Clearly I view things differently from you. And that's okay.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Wasn't really intended as a snide remark or an intention to goad. In many ways I prefer Angel to Buffy but that doesn't mean that I think that the show is flawless.

As for your explanation it's just hilarious to me. Clearly I view things differently from you. And that's okay.

Fair enough. How is it hilarious, after knowing the full arc of the series? As far as Doyle goes, he was part demon, we don't actually know how much demon he had in him: it could have been 25% 38% or 40% or even 50%. My point being that Cordy might have been given (and frankly it seems she was based on her extraordinary powers) a larger dose of demoness than Doyle was. In other words she may have been made 50 60, or 80 percent demon, hidden as it may be. And this seems logical to me, that Skip and Jasmine would want her to have a demon physiology to be able to stand the possession of Jasmine as well as giving birth to her and the process of ascending in the first place. Is this all speculation? yes, but I still find it to be logical speculation 🙂 and yes, diverse opinions are fine with me, I am sorry i misread the tone of your previous comment

 

[Mr Trick]

Except they added some extras... like her "glowy" power... e.g. when she 'cleanses' Connor. That was not needed for her to maintain the visions.

They also made it clear in the first season that a part demon/part human since birth could just barely manage the visions...
...making Cordy part demon was a piss-poor excuse to have her stop screaming in pain and writhing on the floor. They just washed off everything that was troublesome about the visions and added some "cool features" to boot... that's a deux ex machina to me. Like everything in Angel from the end of season 2 and on, it wasn't very well planned or thought-out and not very good in practice.

Yes! This is what I think too. After awhile they just become too gimmicky and you lose the sense of Cordy as a person.

 

[Taake]

Fair enough. How is it hilarious, after knowing the full arc of the series? As far as Doyle goes, he was part demon, we don't actually know how much demon he had in him: it could have been 25% 38% or 40% or even 50%. My point being that Cordy might have been given (and frankly it seems she was based on her extraordinary powers) a larger dose of demoness than Doyle was. In other words she may have been made 50 60, or 80 percent demon, hidden as it may be. And this seems logical to me, that Skip and Jasmine would want her to have a demon physiology to be able to stand the possession of Jasmine as well as giving birth to her and the process of ascending in the first place. Is this all speculation? yes, but I still find it to be logical speculation 🙂 and yes, diverse opinions are fine with me, I am sorry i misread the tone of your previous comment

Well, to me it's hilarious because I think you've put more thought into it then the writers did, because to me very little about demon-Cordy is logical even in terms of the full arc of the series.

But then to be fair demon-ascension-Cordy and Jasmine-Cordy are my least favorite parts of Angel. I think that all of these things could have been good but that in the actual show they weren't given enough room/time to be properly carried out which made all of it kind of sloppy and rushed (and nonsensical in my opinon). Let's have Cordy get demonized! Let's have Cordy leviate! Let's have Cordy glow! Let's have Cordy ascend! It's too much going on and too little time put into consequences, reactions and reasons. I.e. there's no real growth. It made for lesser quality story-telling then I had come to expect from the show, hence my disappointment in these arcs.

🙂

 

[VisionBoy]

Up until Groo comes back, I love her. I don't dislike her afterwards per say, she just seems like Cordy-light. Her fire just isn't there for me and it's missed.

I actually think her demon powers could have been okay if they'd been defined and limited more. The scene where she cleanses Conner, I actually don't mind that. It seemed like a sort of empathic healing thing that I can actually imagine Cordy having and I think it fits rather well into the empathy side of her visions, that after all was such a catalyst for her growth to start with. That'd actually be growing on what she already has a little.
But all the other random stuff: levitating, time freezing, blowing stuff up, destroying a hotel full of otherworldly bugs... let's be honest; they were just letting her pull anything out of her ass.

But yeah, my main issue is that she just doesn't have the same edge once she comes back from vacation. I think they watered her down. probably in order to keep the "she's torn between two guys and doesn't even know it" story going till the end. That actually regressed her considerably in my opinion... that kind of obliviousness is almost akin to Cordelia in early season one.
In my eyes, she was a strong mature woman already; episodes like "That Vision Thing" and"Billy" had already shown that in season 3. "You're Welcome" would show that again in season 5. She was already there. Late season 3 didn't do much for me to be honest.

 

[thetopher]

@VisionBoy and @Taake said it way better than I ever could- it wasn't the fact the Cordy got made half-demon, it's the execution of it all.
Her powers are just so...random and plot-fixing. Especially in 'The Price' but also afterwards they just throw anything in there.

Plus, she lacks that spiky personality that we'ed seen previously- Cordelia telling it like it is. I would've liked to have one, just one scene with her interacting with Wesley- even if it were just to tell him off or something. They'd been with Angel since almost the beginning and she just...doesn't seem to care- she'd so caught up in her guy-triangle it just doesn't seem like her at all.

I guess that's why S4 Cordelia didn't bother me that much, I'd checked out on her character before S3 had even ended.