Cordy or Jasmine?

[chasesummers]

So I've been watching clips from Season 4 and I kept asking the same question, is Cordy inside Cordy or is it completely Jasmine?

It was sad to see that in Angel's visions (when they wanted him to turn into Angelus) he made love to Cordy and lost his soul, which meant he reached the highest state of happiness like he did with Buffy, that shows that Cordy is a big part of his life too but the show just doesn't communicate it that much.

I feel more comfortable watching the show thinking Cordy is simply Jasmine (after Spin the Bottle), the Connor thing is simply the worst idea ever, what the heck were the writers thinking?

What do you guys think?

 

[Buffy Summers]

When I watch it now I try to think of it as all Jasmine, but I'm not sure it works for me actually watching it. Sometimes it seems Cordelia.

 

[kittenpoker]

It's jasmine. I think it works somewhat the same as when the First embodies people who died. Cordy's mannerisms and memories remain but she's basically asleep at the wheel. Jasmine's driving.


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[chasesummers]

Bloody Jasmin, had to be Connor she wanted to sleep with lol.

Have you guys heard Charisma Carpenter say that Connor had long toenails and smelled like cigarets or something haha, I thought it was hilarious.

 

[janas]

Bloody Jasmin, had to be Connor she wanted to sleep with lol.

Have you guys heard Charisma Carpenter say that Connor had long toenails and smelled like cigarets or something haha, I thought it was hilarious.

I thought she was very rude towards Vincent Kartheiser.

 

[chasesummers]

I like the fact that she's honest but sure it can feel rude if taken seriously.

 

[Lyri]

I like the fact that she's honest but sure it can feel rude if taken seriously.

It was a serious statement, it should be taken seriously. It's been said before, numerous times, I think, that Charisma and Vincent did not get along onset and she hated filming that scene because, as was already said, he smelled of cigarettes and his toenails were too long, which, I assume, meant that he was inadvertently hurting her. As someone who has met Vincent, I can confirm that he does indeed smell of cigarettes, lol. I know nothing about his toenails, however.

As for the thread itself, I always assumed that there was some sort of holding pattern when Cordelia returned from the Higher Plane, meaning that Jasmine couldn't gain complete control over Cordelia, which resulted in the amnesia. The spell in 'Spin the Bottle' inabled Jasmine to take complete control. Everything after that was Jasmine getting everything into place for her 'birth'.

I wish, on so many levels, that S4 had progressed the way Joss and the writers wanted it to. No offence or blame towards Charisma, she had every right to keep her pregnancy to herself for as long as she wanted. That is her prerogative. Joss and the writers might have been able to come up with something better, though, if they had known sooner, but, again, that was Charisma's decision and she had every right to do what she thought was best for her and her son. S4, though, suffered heavily for this, mostly because, I think, my personal opinion, Joss was pissed that he HAD to do the rewrite in the first place. It's clear that S4 was hastily changed to compensate for Charisma's pregnancy and I think it suffered for that. It just shows, I think, that the writers didn't try very hard to come up with another, better storyline. Okay, yes, they had to make excepts for Charisma and give her time off for when she actually gave birth, but I think I would have been happier if she'd been written out of the majority of the season rather than what they did to her character in S4.

Yes, we know it wasn't REALLY Cordy, but the image of her sleeping with Connor and stabbing Lilah will always, always be with us.

 

[The Chosen]

I wish, on so many levels, that S4 had progressed the way Joss and the writers wanted it to.

I'm not very up on my Angel lore lately. How was it that season four was initially intended?

I've alllways hated how Cordy was treated. She really became one of the best characters Joss has created...

 

[Lyri]

I'm not very up on my Angel lore lately. How was it that season four was initially intended?

[MENTION=11292]kittenpoker[/MENTION] asked me the same thing, so I'll just post what I was going to send to her.


The original idea for S4 was for Cordelia to be the Big Bad - no Jasmine or mystical pregnancy at all. I don't know if she was still supposed to be possessed or not, as that's never been released, and the climax of the season was supposed to be this huge, massive EPIC fight between Cordelia and Angel. But Charisma's real life pregnancy prevented all of that. She also kept her pregnancy to herself for a REALLY long time, causing Joss and the writers to have to hastily come up with another idea for S4 in the middle of the season and a lot had to be dropped and rewritten, which is why S4 seems so rushed and confusing. Doyle was also supposed to return in S4 as part of Cordelia's army or whatever, but obviously, Glen Quinn died before that could happen.

No offense meant to Charisma, of course it was up to her if and when she revealed her pregnancy to the people she worked with, especially considering she had had a miscarriage the previous year, if rumors are to be believed. (Supposedly, this was why Cordy and Groo left in the middle of the season for their 'vacation', to allow Charisma time to mourn and heal.)

 

[kittenpoker]

Thanks Lyri!!! I'm so curious now as to what could have sparked an evil cordy!


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[Lyri]

Thanks Lyri!!! I'm so curious now as to what could have sparked an evil cordy!


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I think it would have been the same thing - Cordelia would have come back from that 'higher plane' possessed by Jasmine - except, Jasmine would be a non-issue. There would have been no need for a mystical pregnancy to separate Cordelia and Jasmine, because the pregnancy storyline was only added because of Charisma's real life pregnancy. So, we would have just had Cordelia, possessed by some unknown entity, hellbent on...world peace or ending the world, we don't know. But in my mind, possession would have still played a key part in Evil!Cordy's story, because I can't for the life of me, think of something that would cause Cordelia to turn against Angel so violently.

I mean, it's not like she was forced to go to the higher plane, Skip might have manipulated her, but it was still her decision to 'ascend', so it's not like she could have blamed Angel for not rescuing her or something. Nothing from S3 would have needed to be changed to accommodate Charisma's pregnancy. Everything up until some time in the first few episodes of S4 would have happened the same way whether the pregnancy was a factor or not.

 

[Zeppelin92]

Its very plausible also that Charisma didn't know Cordelia would be playing such a pivotal role in the season. Its possible that she kept her pregnancy private because she didn't think it would be too much of a problem plot wise to just hide it. Joss is known for keeping the latter half of the season a huge secret even for key actors in the season. Look at Season 5 of Buffy, Clare Kramer (Glory) wasn't even sure how long her character would be alive for she only knew as much as a script to script basis. So it could equally have been Joss' fault for not letting Charisma know ahead of time that her role would be more demanding and even more physical by the end of the season. Had she known that she could have disclosed her pregnancy to Joss earlier on.