Cordy's growth

[thetopher]

How does Cordy throw that away, like I said, they don't visit her, they don't make an effort, Willow doesn't even apologise. Why would she then go to them and be all forgivey - who would do that? A saint maybe,or someone incredibly needy and desperate - which Cordy isn't.

And, to my memory, Cordy is nowhere near as mean to the scoobies as she was in earlier seasons, except for Xander who, let's face it, deserved some meanness.

Wesley was seeking redemption, he was trying to make up for what he'd done, even if he does say otherwise because he's too proud to ask for forgiveness or admit he's wrong.

Why would Cordy go to Wesley, yes they had known each other since season 1, but they were never that close, and she, like everyone else, knew his side of the story - she had better things to do. Why didn't Wesley go to Cordelia with his concerns? She's connected to the PTB, if you're going to do something momuentally stupid for the 'greater good' maybe it would be a good idea to ask someone intune with the greater good, who just happes to be one of your best friends? Wesley didn't see Cordy as worthy of his trust, he betrayed her when he betrayed Angel, and he had to suffer the consequences. Plus with Angel being Angel, if Cordy had gone to Wesley then that kind of action might have seemed like a betrayal, when Angel tries to kill Wesley he basically forces his team to pick a side, him or Wesley - for Cordelia, Wesley had no chance.

Unlike Wesley, Cordy does continue to help her former non-friends, she's still there helping throughout season 3.

Also, In the price, Wesley only helps because it's Fred, anyone else and he was going to let them die - how noble. Re saving Angel, if he hadn't betrayed Angel in the first place then he wouldn't have needed saving, it's the least Wesley could do. Plus, he does not do it out of the goodness of his heart, he's too 'dark for that, so there must be another reason? Whatever could it be, redemption perhaps?

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

p.s. The Price slugs were also there as a consequence of Wesley's betrayal/Angel's recklessness...

Xander tries to visit Cordy at the hospital at the first oppertunity- she (rightly perhaps) tells him to f-off.
But Cordelia mainly blames Buffy, as is pretty nasty to her on several occasions with no justification.
She just reverts to spiteful Queen C mode. ('Choices', Doppelgangerland') and no longer gives a damn about her former friends. I don't consider that strong at all.

You're kidding right?
Cordilia and Wes were extremely close both to each other and Angel by the end of S1. They were a unit, a team, so of course she cared about him. She was closer to him than with anybody besides Angel.
Did Cordelia tell anybody where she was going on her holiday? It's never specified so I presume that Wes didn't know where she went or how to contact her.

But when she comes back she doesn't know Wes's side of the story because she doesn't ask him, she gets Fred's version (probably) but its never specified.
And the reason Wes didn't go and seek her out is because she's right next to Angel...the guy who tried to kill him, so maybe Wes has a right to be cagey.

In S3 Cordelia is there because she has a crush on Wes from 'Bad Girls' on- she is being entirely self-motivated here, and her usefulness to the group is...marginal to say the least. 🙂

So, Angel attempts reckless, dark magic and Wes gets the blame? So I guess if Angel had tortured Linwood that would've been Wesley's fault as well? Nice rational. 😉

In 'The Price' I'm betting Wes would've helped Cordy, but whatever- the fact is he helped when he had no reason to besides friendship and/or redemption. (y'know the thing Angel does as well)
Angel would still be at the bottom of the ocean (because Conner put him there, not Wes, when Holtz tricked him- that was not Wes's fault),
Angel wouldn't have a clue how to find Cordelia and Fred would've died by one of those slug things that Angel brought into being.

I'll admit that Wes screwed up, but I'm not blind to the fact that even after all the bad stuff he still helped out his former friends for no obvious reason besides what I've just stated.

Anyway, I think we're talking in circles here.
I think both Cordelia and Wesley grew a lot of Angel, you don't. End of. 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

How does Cordy throw that away, like I said, they don't visit her, they don't make an effort, Willow doesn't even apologise. Why would she then go to them and be all forgivey - who would do that? A saint maybe,or someone incredibly needy and desperate - which Cordy isn't.

And, to my memory, Cordy is nowhere near as mean to the scoobies as she was in earlier seasons, except for Xander who, let's face it, deserved some meanness.

Wesley was seeking redemption, he was trying to make up for what he'd done, even if he does say otherwise because he's too proud to ask for forgiveness or admit he's wrong.

Why would Cordy go to Wesley, yes they had known each other since season 1, but they were never that close, and she, like everyone else, knew his side of the story - she had better things to do. Why didn't Wesley go to Cordelia with his concerns? She's connected to the PTB, if you're going to do something momuentally stupid for the 'greater good' maybe it would be a good idea to ask someone intune with the greater good, who just happes to be one of your best friends? Wesley didn't see Cordy as worthy of his trust, he betrayed her when he betrayed Angel, and he had to suffer the consequences. Plus with Angel being Angel, if Cordy had gone to Wesley then that kind of action might have seemed like a betrayal, when Angel tries to kill Wesley he basically forces his team to pick a side, him or Wesley - for Cordelia, Wesley had no chance.

Unlike Wesley, Cordy does continue to help her former non-friends, she's still there helping throughout season 3.

Also, In the price, Wesley only helps because it's Fred, anyone else and he was going to let them die - how noble. Re saving Angel, if he hadn't betrayed Angel in the first place then he wouldn't have needed saving, it's the least Wesley could do. Plus, he does not do it out of the goodness of his heart, he's too 'dark for that, so there must be another reason? Whatever could it be, redemption perhaps?

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

p.s. The Price slugs were also there as a consequence of Wesley's betrayal/Angel's recklessness...

Xander tries to visit Cordy at the hospital at the first oppertunity- she (rightly perhaps) tells him to f-off.
But Cordelia mainly blames Buffy, as is pretty nasty to her on several occasions with no justification.
She just reverts to spiteful Queen C mode. ('Choices', Doppelgangerland') and no longer gives a damn about her former friends. I don't consider that strong at all.

You're kidding right?
Cordilia and Wes were extremely close both to each other and Angel by the end of S1. They were a unit, a team, so of course she cared about him. She was closer to him than with anybody besides Angel.
Did Cordelia tell anybody where she was going on her holiday? It's never specified so I presume that Wes didn't know where she went or how to contact her.

But when she comes back she doesn't know Wes's side of the story because she doesn't ask him, she gets Fred's version (probably) but its never specified.
And the reason Wes didn't go and seek her out is because she's right next to Angel...the guy who tried to kill him, so maybe Wes has a right to be cagey.

In S3 Cordelia is there because she has a crush on Wes from 'Bad Girls' on- she is being entirely self-motivated here, and her usefulness to the group is...marginal to say the least. 🙂

So, Angel attempts reckless, dark magic and Wes gets the blame? So I guess if Angel had tortured Linwood that would've been Wesley's fault as well? Nice rational. 😉

In 'The Price' I'm betting Wes would've helped Cordy, but whatever- the fact is he helped when he had no reason to besides friendship and/or redemption. (y'know the thing Angel does as well)
Angel would still be at the bottom of the ocean (because Conner put him there, not Wes, when Holtz tricked him- that was not Wes's fault),
Angel wouldn't have a clue how to find Cordelia and Fred would've died by one of those slug things that Angel brought into being.

I'll admit that Wes screwed up, but I'm not blind to the fact that even after all the bad stuff he still helped out his former friends for no obvious reason besides what I've just stated.

Anyway, I think we're talking in circles here.
I think both Cordelia and Wesley grew a lot of Angel, you don't. End of. 🙂

They weren't friends, Cordy was never friends with Buffy, she got close to Willow, but she betrayed her with Xander. Cordy only ever really got close to Xander, the scoobs were never her friends, she was just there with them because of circumstances... i.e. she chose to help.

I'm sure, Wesley, as the ultimate boss, had his number one employee's mobile (aka office manager) phone number, or would have ensured they had some form of communication, just in case she had a vision etc. If not, he could have asked Lorne for help, who had an even better tune in to destiny etc., he chose not too, because he thought his interpretative skills were better than his friends abiltiies, input, magic powers, intelligence and so forth.

When were Cordy ad Wesley close, other than physically? They worked in proximity to one another, and seemed to bicker more than anything. I have wored with people for years, and become 'work friends', but then when they left, or I left, I didn't care at all... I don't think Wesley and Cordy were close, to be honest, Cordy doesn't seem to get especailly close to anyone after Doyle dies, which may be a detriment to her character. Even if they were close, it still comes to a choice Angel/Wesley... easy decision.

What more to the story is there, Wes read a prophecy, took Connor without speaking to anyone else, and now Connor's gone... because of Wes, I wouldn't need to hear anymore... if Cordy/Fred/Gunn or anyone had done the same I would still feel they deserved the treatment that Wes was subject to. Plus, Cordy was a sudo-mum to Connor, in a small way he stole her child, or relative, she may not have trusted herself around him.

In season 3, Cordy helps for the same reason she always did, she's in the library more because of Wes, but that's not why she helps. She helps for whatever reason she did pre-Wes... if she only helped for Wes then why didn't she do an Anya when she got over that particular insanity?

Angel attempts dark magic, and tortures Linwood because of what Wesley did... if Wesley hadn't taken Connor, then there would have been no need for Angel to do these things: no wonder W&H tried to hire Wes, he did as much as Darla did for making Angel go dark, but in a day!

when doe Wesley help his friends with something that wasn't a near direct result of his betrayal, to my mind only once, when he tries to find Cordy,but in his mind that was connected to Angel being lost as a result of his son, who had been brainwashed by the person Wesley deemed to be the best guardian possible...

If Wesley was seeking redemption then I'd be yay, I love Wes like a spuffy person loves spike, or like a bangel loves Angel, but he doesn't seem to be sorry, or even acknowledge he did something wrong. He just focuses on the fact that his friends abandoned him for betraying them, how dare they.

Wesley is responsible for most of the bad things that happen from that point on, the consequences of him taking Connor are astoundingly bad, it's possibly the worst action, in terms of negative consequences, that we see on either show...

 

[janas]

Angel would still be at the bottom of the ocean (because Conner put him there, not Wes, when Holtz tricked him- that was not Wes's fault)

Wow...we disagree, it seems me so strange 🙂 was not Wesley's fault? was not Wesley's fault? Really? grr argh... Everything that Connor has become, it's absolutely Wesley's fault. However I agree that Cordelia has totally ignored Wes after the Connor's kidnapping and this is sad.

 

[thetopher]

Wow...we disagree, it seems me so strange 🙂 was not Wesley's fault? was not Wesley's fault? Really? grr argh... Everything that Connor has become, it's absolutely Wesley's fault. However I agree that Cordelia has totally ignored Wes after the Connor's kidnapping and this is sad.

Okay, so here's the thing. Conner comes back, he's all kinds of screwed up- this is both Wesley's fault and Holtz'. Wes effectively handed him over (even though that was not his intent) and Holtz' for jumping through the portal to hell and raising him to hate Angel.

But then Conner comes back and he and Angel get along. It's a shaky relationship, sure, but they start to really bond, despite all that hate.
Conner begins to see that Angel isn't wholey evil just because he's a vampire, he gets mystically 'healed' by Cordy- these things happen completely seperately to anything Wes is doing.

Then...Holtz gets Justine to kill him to look like Angel did it, he frames him, and Conner completely falls for it- this has nothing to do with Wesley. The plan to drop Angel at the bottom of the ocean has nothing to do with Wesley.

Wesley helped 'create' Connor but Connor still has agency, he still makes his own choices, he thinks, he acts on judgements that he himself makes. Those judgements might be twisted and flawed, but they are still his.

Otherwise nothing, no decision whether bad or good is Connor's choice, he's just a creation of Wes and Holtz upbringing, a damaged automaton who's acting out bad programming.

I'm not a Wesley appologist by any means, he screws up, he makes monumentally bad choices and should have to be judged for them.
But so, in turn, should Connor. 🙂

As Angel himself says 'What you did to me was unbeleivable, Connor'. Connor's a fully realised character and should be treated as such.

 

[janas]

@thetopher Ah, but I understood what you meant, and I agree that each of us, in the end, we are the only ones responsible for our actions, including Connor. Now I don't want to hijack thread, it's only about Cordy, but I would remind you that Wesley is, in the fifth season, once again, responsible for bringing back the hell in the life of Connor. Wesley what you do? Insist? ...and the basic motivation is basically the same. Wesley had lost the woman he loved, just as had happened in season three. Don't get me wrong, I like Wesley, and even though I know that was good that Connor recuperate his real memories, however Wesley didn't think about it for a second. He broke the Orlon Window without thinking of the consequences.

 

[Xin Rong]

Okay, so here's the thing. Conner comes back, he's all kinds of screwed up- this is both Wesley's fault and Holtz'. Wes effectively handed him over (even though that was not his intent) and Holtz' for jumping through the portal to hell and raising him to hate Angel.

But then Conner comes back and he and Angel get along. It's a shaky relationship, sure, but they start to really bond, despite all that hate.
Conner begins to see that Angel isn't wholey evil just because he's a vampire, he gets mystically 'healed' by Cordy- these things happen completely seperately to anything Wes is doing.

Then...Holtz gets Justine to kill him to look like Angel did it, he frames him, and Conner completely falls for it- this has nothing to do with Wesley. The plan to drop Angel at the bottom of the ocean has nothing to do with Wesley.

Wesley helped 'create' Connor but Connor still has agency, he still makes his own choices, he thinks, he acts on judgements that he himself makes. Those judgements might be twisted and flawed, but they are still his.

Otherwise nothing, no decision whether bad or good is Connor's choice, he's just a creation of Wes and Holtz upbringing, a damaged automaton who's acting out bad programming.

I'm not a Wesley appologist by any means, he screws up, he makes monumentally bad choices and should have to be judged for them.
But so, in turn, should Connor. 🙂

As Angel himself says 'What you did to me was unbeleivable, Connor'. Connor's a fully realised character and should be treated as such.

Nope, nope, nope... Wesley handed him over, and that was his intent, he wasn't lending Connor out.

You are very much a Wesley appologist just as I'm the opposite.

And, Connor, more than any other character is relatively neglible in terms of agency, the kid has no clue whatsoever, he only knows what he knows, which is lies and deciet and a literal hell... which is Wesley's fault.

Connor becomes a semi realised character, but he is not at the beginning.

He's the equivalent of a animal that's been trained to fight, it's all he knows, it's all he does.

People's choices are determined by their character, a large part of a person's character is determined by their upbringing - and Connor's upbringing is Wesley's fault. If I handed my nephew to a serial killer, then 20 years later found out that my nephew was an accomplice to, and had become a, serial killer then that would be my fault.

If it isn't Wesley's fault, then do you think Connor would have partaken in similar actions if Wesley had not handed him over to a homicidal maniac?

Connor is entirely a creation of Wesley's bad decision, no other person is more responsible for his horrible life than Wesley, because his betrayal led to everything else.

 

[janas]

EDIT:
about Cordy's growth I prefer to gloss over, I'd do too many enemies LOL, but I frankly don't see all this growth. But then, in the Whedonverse there really is someone who grows really? Just take a quick look at the comics and you can view all of our heroes that still rotate around the same issues as always. All of them turn around a wheel endlessly as if they were many mouse-Amy.

 

[thetopher]

Nope, nope, nope... Wesley handed him over, and that was his intent, he wasn't lending Connor out.

You are very much a Wesley appologist just as I'm the opposite.

And, Connor, more than any other character is relatively neglible in terms of agency, the kid has no clue whatsoever, he only knows what he knows, which is lies and deciet and a literal hell... which is Wesley's fault.

Connor becomes a semi realised character, but he is not at the beginning.

He's the equivalent of a animal that's been trained to fight, it's all he knows, it's all he does.

People's choices are determined by their character, a large part of a person's character is determined by their upbringing - and Connor's upbringing is Wesley's fault. If I handed my nephew to a serial killer, then 20 years later found out that my nephew was an accomplice to, and had become a, serial killer then that would be my fault.

If it isn't Wesley's fault, then do you think Connor would have partaken in similar actions if Wesley had not handed him over to a homicidal maniac?

Connor is entirely a creation of Wesley's bad decision, no other person is more responsible for his horrible life than Wesley, because his betrayal led to everything else.

Wesley was planning to hand Connor over to Holtz? Nope, otherwise why did Justine slit Wesley's throat? For chuckles maybe.

You are clearly a Wesley hater who sees no redeeeming feature in anything he does, any of his motivation or action.
I, at least, know when Wesley screws up and when he doesn't.

For example in S5 Wes screws up again by breaking that spell, it restores all of Connor's hellish memories. That's an awful thing to do no matter what the motivation.

People's upbringing does determine their behaviour, but everybody still makes choices about what they do in life. Their mistakes are their own as soon as the become adults.

By your rational Xander leaving Anya at the alter was entirely his parents fault, not his.

Faith going to the dark side was the result of her broken childhood, she had no control over it, not her fault.

But Connor isn't an animal- he makes judgements. When his instinct tells him to kill Angel the second time around he doesn't. He chooses to trust him, then because of Holtz, he chooses to betray that trust.
Hell, Connor chooses to leave Quorthoth in the first place, Holtz doesn't make him, he goes after Angel on his own. Connor has agency right from the very start.

It's why, when Angel gets free from the ocean he rightly blames Connor and not Wesley.

If a person isn't mind controlled/memory wiped then they are responsible for their own actions and choices- they should live with their own actions, it shouldn't be laid off on somebody else as 'their fault', otherwise where does it end?

In fact, that goes for the real world too- everybody is responsible for their own choices. Sure they can be influenced by outside forces but if they choose to do something then they should be blamed/praised for the consequences.

Wes and Connor both make judgements on faulty infomation and make a mistake because of it.
The difference is Wesleys mistake is much, much worse, and he condemns Connor to a hellish childhood because of it.

But Connor isn't a robot, he's not programmed to do anything, he's human-ish and goes on to makes lots of bad choices about his life.
Do I feel bad for him?
Yes I do, because he's lied to at every turn, but he still makes those bad choices all by himself.

This is getting kinda off-topic now, so how do we move this darn thread? 🙂

 

[janas]

@thetopher. It's true what you say about individual responsibilities, among other things, if we exclude the responsibility of the individual actions of the characters, we eliminate also their growth, which is the subject of this thread, but in the Connor's case @Xin Rong has nailed the problem. There is no responsibility if there is no awareness.

 

[Xin Rong]

Wesley was planning to hand Connor over to Holtz? Nope, otherwise why did Justine slit Wesley's throat? For chuckles maybe.

You are clearly a Wesley hater who sees no redeeeming feature in anything he does, any of his motivation or action.
I, at least, know when Wesley screws up and when he doesn't.

For example in S5 Wes screws up again by breaking that spell, it restores all of Connor's hellish memories. That's an awful thing to do no matter what the motivation.

People's upbringing does determine their behaviour, but everybody still makes choices about what they do in life. Their mistakes are their own as soon as the become adults.

By your rational Xander leaving Anya at the alter was entirely his parents fault, not his.

Faith going to the dark side was the result of her broken childhood, she had no control over it, not her fault.

But Connor isn't an animal- he makes judgements. When his instinct tells him to kill Angel the second time around he doesn't. He chooses to trust him, then because of Holtz, he chooses to betray that trust.
Hell, Connor chooses to leave Quorthoth in the first place, Holtz doesn't make him, he goes after Angel on his own. Connor has agency right from the very start.

It's why, when Angel gets free from the ocean he rightly blames Connor and not Wesley.

If a person isn't mind controlled/memory wiped then they are responsible for their own actions and choices- they should live with their own actions, it shouldn't be laid off on somebody else as 'their fault', otherwise where does it end?

In fact, that goes for the real world too- everybody is responsible for their own choices. Sure they can be influenced by outside forces but if they choose to do something then they should be blamed/praised for the consequences.

Wes and Connor both make judgements on faulty infomation and make a mistake because of it.
The difference is Wesleys mistake is much, much worse, and he condemns Connor to a hellish childhood because of it.

But Connor isn't a robot, he's not programmed to do anything, he's human-ish and goes on to makes lots of bad choices about his life.
Do I feel bad for him?
Yes I do, because he's lied to at every turn, but he still makes those bad choices all by himself.

This is getting kinda off-topic now, so how do we move this darn thread? 🙂

So what was Wesley doing if he wasn't giving connor to Holtz? Justine slit his throat to eliminate the trace, without Wesley's knowledge it would have been harder to trace Connor.

You accuse me of being a Wesley hater, but then cite a season 5 example, not one that is relevant to this discussion.

My logic is that Connor isn't an adult, your examples are bogus in comparsion, Connor is a unique person in the show... he didn't have an upbringing in any sense. He lacks knowlege, experience etc. so he's less than culpable... which was Wesley's fault.

Again, without Wesley being a dick, making a stupid choice, then these problems would not have occurredd.

Wesley does more damage than any other character... if Wesley had died at the end of season 2, then the world would have been a better place.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

The son of two vampires was unprecedented and it may have been the case that he would be an evil monster who could only be killed by the father. The first wrong assumption Wesley made about the prediction is that it would be a bad thing if Angel killed his son. He may have had to kill his son at some point in the future and Wesley's move endangered everything.

It was entirely Wesley's responsibility that Connor had a hellish upbringing and Wesley never loses the attitude that he knows better than anyone else about everything. Anyone who tries to take a child away had better have armed backup. Some people tend to object.

 

[thetopher]

@thetopher. It's true what you say about individual responsibilities, among other things, if we exclude the responsibility of the individual actions of the characters, we eliminate also their growth, which is the subject of this thread, but in the Connor's case @Xin Rong has nailed the problem. There is no responsibility if there is no awareness.

Well, I agree to a certain extent about Connor. In 'A New World' he's acting and reacting like he would in Quortoth. Fighting off 'predators', cutting off ears as trophies, protecting the pretty girl who befrinends him, that sort of thing.
He's learning about this new world that he's only been told about by Holtz.

But by 'Tommorrow'? Connor knows enough about the situation to make a choice. He's spent time with Angel, he fought by his side and begun to bond with him.
But, in the end, Connor chooses to trust in what Holtz has always told him, rather than what Angel had shown him through his actions.
Connor is tricked true, but he's the one who chooses to punish Angel the way he does.

Blaming it all on Wesley is a cop-out imo. 🙂

And look, the reason I like certain characters so much is because they screw up, and then go on to try and make amends. Their attempts don't always work but I appreciate them trying, appreciate them searching for redemption and not giving up even if they screw up.
I even feel for Connor when Cordy manipulates him into killing that girl- but he's the one that still does it, he murders her because he believed that it was right at the time. He follows Jasmine because he, unlike all the others, chooses to (he's her 'father' after all) and wants to beleive in something better.

Connor screws up, that's what teenagers do, and he learns from those mistakes because they were his mistakes to make. 🙂

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

You accuse me of being a Wesley hater, but then cite a season 5 example, not one that is relevant to this discussion.

That example was me showing that I wasn't a Wesley appologist as you accused me of being. 🙂
In that way it was relavent to the discussion because I can look at all of Wesley's actions clearly and without bias. He screws up sometimes- I know this. I know what actions he should be blamed for and what actions that Connor himself should be blamed for.

Calling a character a dick and criticising him for the simple act of using guns (which you've done on a seperate thread) is pretty much the kind of language/arguements a hater would use.

Connor is a young adult, not a child. He's quite capable of making his own choices and his own mistakes- Angel, Fred and Gunn blame him, not Wesley, and rightly so.

Ignorance? Connor had no ignorance, he'd spent time enough with Angel to know that not everything that Holtz had said was true, but he chose to ignore it when he believed Holtz murdered.

I like flawed characters, they make the show more interesting. You want characters that don't screw up you get a pretty boring show.
I think Wesley is one of the better characters on 'Angel' and think killing him off would've ended lots of great drama from Seasons 3, 4 and 5. 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

Well, I agree to a certain extent about Connor. In 'A New World' he's acting and reacting like he would in Quortoth. Fighting off 'predators', cutting off ears as trophies, protecting the pretty girl who befrinends him, that sort of thing.
He's learning about this new world that he's only been told about by Holtz.

But by 'Tommorrow'? Connor knows enough about the situation to make a choice. He's spent time with Angel, he fought by his side and begun to bond with him.
But, in the end, Connor chooses to trust in what Holtz has always told him, rather than what Angel had shown him through his actions.
Connor is tricked true, but he's the one who chooses to punish Angel the way he does.

Blaming it all on Wesley is a cop-out imo. 🙂

And look, the reason I like certain characters so much is because they screw up, and then go on to try and make amends. Their attempts don't always work but I appreciate them trying, appreciate them searching for redemption and not giving up even if they screw up.
I even feel for Connor when Cordy manipulates him into killing that girl- but he's the one that still does it, he murders her because he believed that it was right at the time. He follows Jasmine because he, unlike all the others, chooses to (he's her 'father' after all) and wants to beleive in something better.

Connor screws up, that's what teenagers do, and he learns from those mistakes because they were his mistakes to make. 🙂

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------



That example was me showing that I wasn't a Wesley appologist as you accused me of being. 🙂
In that way it was relavent to the discussion because I can look at all of Wesley's actions clearly and without bias. He screws up sometimes- I know this. I know what actions he should be blamed for and what actions that Connor himself should be blamed for.

Calling a character a dick and criticising him for the simple act of using guns (which you've done on a seperate thread) is pretty much the kind of language/arguements a hater would use.

Connor is a young adult, not a child. He's quite capable of making his own choices and his own mistakes- Angel, Fred and Gunn blame him, not Wesley, and rightly so.

Ignorance? Connor had no ignorance, he'd spent time enough with Angel to know that not everything that Holtz had said was true, but he chose to ignore it when he believed Holtz murdered.

I like flawed characters, they make the show more interesting. You want characters that don't screw up you get a pretty boring show.
I think Wesley is one of the better characters on 'Angel' and think killing him off would've ended lots of great drama from Seasons 3, 4 and 5. 🙂

I'm not really a Wesley hater, or at least I wasn't, I've had a similar reaction to what you've had with Spike. I feel like he is just way overrated by fans. I too love characters that screw up and make amends, hence Willow and Faith being two of my favorite characters. With Wesley, he may attempt to make amends, but he never admits that he has any reason to, he acts like his friends were in the wrong for ostracising him, without seeming to acknowledge his massive role in their decision to do so.

The gun thing is mainly because I see it as Wesley using guns as dressing up box tools, he wants to pretend to be bad-ass, but knows he lacks the prerequisites so gets the shop bought variety.

My main gripe with Wesley is that I genuinely don't think he grows, in terms of his major flaws, to me he just repeats the same mistakes - he tries to be something other than he is and adopts roles, him and Andrew could be brothers in the way they act - although Andrew in a more extreme way of course. It's only when Fred died that he gives up maintaining a facade, and I really didn't want him to die, I was genuinely interested to see how he'd develop from that point onwards.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Also, you criticise Connor for trusting the knoledge that he'd been brought up to believe because he'd had a few weeks to see things that counter it - I'd imagine it takes a whole lot longer to overcome a lifetime of brainwashing, plus add the final manipulation by Holtz/Justine - what he does is frustrating for us, who know the truth, but perfectly understandable from his character's perspective. And again, without Wesley sending him off with a homicidal maniac then there wouldn't have been an opportunity for this brainwashing.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

@Xin Rong I still don't understand what you mean in your posts by "Wesley doesn't grow". You didn't address the earlier comments on the thread to demonstrate Wesley's growth. What else is growth supposed to be?

I agree about your Connor point to emphasize that a lifetime of careful brainwashing by Holtz would be very hard to overcome in a short amount of time. It's weird, but some people can just dismiss with a wave of the hand the significance of being raised from the beginning of life with the purpose of hating someone, by the only father you've ever known, by the only person you've ever loved, and being manipulated by a VERY clever person to feel and see a certain way. To me, it wouldn't have been easy to see past all of that, not as easy as some people seem to argue. Anyway...
I also personally don't buy the argument that he was learning to see Angel differently. Connor had his mind made up about what he wanted to do to Angel (because of Holtz) from the beginning, before he even came back to Earth. That wasn't going to change. My recollection of events was that Connor seemed like he was just playing along for the most part. His outward appearance of "getting along" and "slowly coming around" was more the result of pretending than it was because he was changing his mind. But as I've said many times on other threads, the first watch is a lot to absorb, so I could have missed things. You can be sure it will be one of the things I will be watching for specifically the next time I see S3 though.

I feel another round of arguing about Connor coming up lol. I'm sorry OP. thread officially hijacked.

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------

When I retread my posts they sometimes sound more confrontational than they were ever meant to be. Please disregard any sense of that. It was not my intention.

 

[thetopher]

Also, you criticise Connor for trusting the knoledge that he'd been brought up to believe because he'd had a few weeks to see things that counter it - I'd imagine it takes a whole lot longer to overcome a lifetime of brainwashing, plus add the final manipulation by Holtz/Justine - what he does is frustrating for us, who know the truth, but perfectly understandable from his character's perspective. And again, without Wesley sending him off with a homicidal maniac then there wouldn't have been an opportunity for this brainwashing.

Hey, I agree that Wesley helped create who Connor was by putting him in that situation with Holtz, intentional or not it doesn't really matter, he ruined the boy's childhood. 🙁

But Connor has free will, at first he's getting along quite well considering what he must've been told about Angel by Holtz -as in he's clearly conflicted about his feelings for Angel clashing with what he's been told about him.

And its only after Holtz murder that Connor makes the decision to get closer to Angel, to learn about how he fights, for the sole purpose of defeating him when the time is right.
That's all planning on Connor's own part, with a minimum of help from Justine, and he executes it successfully.

Connor has free will, he's a young adult (he's seventeen or so, right? The same age Faith was when she killed Finch and then went over to the dark side for a while.) he makes a choice to do what he did to Angel with cold cunning.

Connor makes mistakes, sure there are extenuating circumstances, most characters have them when it comes to making bad choices. Wesley did and so did Faith, and they should all rightly be blamed for the stuff they did wrong. 🙂

 

[janas]

But Connor has free will, at first he's getting along quite well considering what he must've been told about Angel by Holtz -as in he's clearly conflicted about his feelings for Angel clashing with what he's been told about him.

No, Connor feigns all the time. He goes by Angel reluctantly and he going only because it's Holtz to ask him, and Holtz, as we know, he has his plans to carry forward. Connor feels something towards Angel (the scene in the alley while they play to fight), but he is ready to deny everything in front of Holtz. Connor is very vulnerable, and Holtz (who knows him well) uses Connor's vulnerability to his advantage.

And its only after Holtz murder that Connor makes the decision to get closer to Angel, to learn about how he fights, for the sole purpose of defeating him when the time is right.
That's all planning on Connor's own part, with a minimum of help from Justine, and he executes it successfully.

Connor has free will, he's a young adult (he's seventeen or so, right? The same age Faith was when she killed Finch and then went over to the dark side for a while.) he makes a choice to do what he did to Angel with cold cunning.

Connor makes mistakes, sure there are extenuating circumstances, most characters have them when it comes to making bad choices. Wesley did and so did Faith, and they should all rightly be blamed for the stuff they did wrong. 🙂

Yes, at cool mind Connor planning Angel's killing, but for him, at that time, Angel is the one who killed Holtz. To Connor, Angel is the absolute evil, a vampire, one thing that kills and drinks blood and Connor is damn terrified of being like him. Here I would not talk about free will, of course he makes choices, but those choices are blurred by Holtz's lies (and Justine).

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

Edit: oh and to stay on topic with the thread, I think that in addition to Wesley, also Cordelia has responsibilities on the father-son relationship. Yes, I know, it was not exactly Cordelia, but she freely choose to become a higher being, succumbing to her boundless vanity and her gigantic ego. Me Me Me. This is all about me!