Could Be A Stupid Question....But, I HAVE To Ask

L

Lou

Scooby
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,070
Age
51
Location
Wonderland
WHY does Joss put up with FOX?
Did he sell his soul to them or something?
Why not deal with someone else? Or heck, he knows we're all rabid, ask US to fund stuff for him. It's not like he's going to make something and we're all going to sit back and see if everyone else says it's good before we watch it.

All I know is, I haven't been a fan that long. I was bored of 6 am infomercials and so I watched Angel. Noticed all too quickly that I couldn't keep up if I missed a day. (Mainly because one day Connor was a baby, two days later he was a teenager and I was LOST!)
Finished Angel, was curious about Spike and oddly intrigued, so I started turning to FX to watch Buffy. That didn't take long to get attached to.
And it wasn't long after that I realized that for the first time, (maybe EVER) that it was the WRITING and the actual meat behind the show that was hooking me.
And it was JUST ABOUT that time that I was becoming aware of all that Fox has done. Of course, I've learned even MORE since FX is doing whatever they are doing to Buffy and the whole Fox sing along thing.
And, I've been floored by what they did to Firefly.

The BBC okaying the Ripper series and Fox waffling. (Like, when did the BBC become so unreputable??)
I mean, I bet I could make a "Buffy Sock Puppet" and sell it on eBay for bookoos. We're all obviously insane blind sheep and will follow, watch, buy WHATEVER the man touches. Why wouldn't Fox JUMP on that. (Disney would.)
Why aren't they beating down his door asking him to make them zillions of dollars?
And if they AREN'T....why isn't he peddling his wares elsewhere? Lots of shows get made WITHOUT Fox, right? Movies too. BAD shows and BAD movies that SOMEONE is backing.
I'm just curious as to why he doesn't just tell them where they can stick it. I had NIGHTMARES about them starting this Dollhouse show in the summer and, (as happens with ALL their good shows in the summer) cancelled by mid-July and replaced by some weirdo reality show before you can even email and ask about it.
 
Damned if I know, but there's some facts I think I do know, you might want to factor in to come to your final conclusion. This is just stuff I've heard, so you'd want to search and confirm before you quoted any of it. Here it is though.

* Fox is not the only rights holder of Buffy. There's Sand Dollar Productions, the Kazuis, and I'm pretty sure I heard Joss, and maybe even David Greenwalt have small chunks. So when Joss says he's having trouble transferring the rights, and new characters have shown up making waves he's not necessarily talking about Fox.

* The studio Fox, and the network Fox are not really the same entity. That was more true in the past than it is today. (Laws were passed). Joss says he always had a good working relationship with the studio Fox. He says the network guys at Fox are not the same guys who screwed him over on Firefly.

* Joss says Fox wants the singalongs to work. It's common knowledge now it's the actors union creating the problem with the singalongs.

* Fox says they've been trying to get Joss to come back to TV.

* Eliza has a deal with Fox to find projects. Once her and Joss came up with this idea they were obliged to go to Fox if Eliza was in it.

* I'm not sure, but I think Tim Minear might also have a contract with Fox. Don't know how, or if that would factor in, but Joss wanted him involved.

* Joss and Eliza went to Fox with an idea for a Pilot. Fox wanted to commit to 7 eps. That's a big commitment. They're proving in this case they're committed to the project, and not as was the case with Firefly that they should simply have been committed.
 
FOX isn't that much of a bad network. Sure, it seems like they screw all of their shows over, but they also fill less hours per week than the other networks, so percentage wise is there a huge difference in how many shows they cancel per year? Also, traditionally FOX has been the network that actually takes chances on shows that are not completely mainstream and unique. In the past few seasons that's not really the case anymore, but they've had tons of "edgier" shows that I couldn't see on the other networks.

Whose fault is it that those shows ultimately failed? Equal blame has to go to the VIEWERS. Sometimes shows would get big premiere numbers but since they weren't mainstream enough, viewers leave in droves. Is that FOX's fault? People aren't likely to come back, so they cancel it to keep from losing even more money. At least they gave the show a fighting chance.

Of course, I'm not saying FOX never does wrong. I'm sure if they tried harder they could make money from being a more niche network. And I'm sure they DID make mistakes that directly affected the fate of a show.

They had a hit with Dark Angel but moved it to Fridays. Even though ratings dropped, they renewed it for a third season. They then made the decision to go with Firefly instead but couldn't afford two high-budget sci-fi shows, so they canceled Dark Angel. A smart move would have been to NOT premiere Firefly on Friday but they did, and then they had TWO dead shows. And FOX isn't the first network to air episodes out of order (or to even hold off on the pilot). And I doubt every executive there supported that idea.

A few years ago Gail Berman got a lot of criticism (she was the head of the network). I think all the people who did that were asses. Gail supported ALL of those cool genre shows, SHE'S the main reason they saw the light of day. But guess what? The president of the network does NOT make every decision. The president has bosses, too. Those bosses preferred those degrading reality shows, THEY greenlit them. And I doubt Gail had a hand in destroying Firefly. She probably loved it.

When I read somewhere that Joss had said he'd never work with the network again, I thought it was incredibly stupid of him, because

a.) the execs and heads of networks change ALL the time
b.) Firefly was probably NEVER going to be a ratings success in the first place
c.) he could always come up with another show that would get a better reaction from the network AND the audience

In the past few seasons I think FOX has sunk creatively. Their shows are "safer" and not really attention-worthy. I'd rather have a bunch of cool quickly canceled shows than a bunch of mediocre more successful shows. Anyways, judging by the fact that a lot of people have been replaced, including the president, and their growing pilot slate for next year, I'm glad Joss decided to work with them, and I hope the network can make some good decisions to better their network and their reputation.
 
This was years ago. You seriously expect me to have a link?

All I remember is reading that Joss said he didn't ever want to work with the network as he felt they screwed over Firefly. Sure the article might not have even quoted him directly or sent the wrong idea, but based on Joss's comments about how "Dollhouse" started it seems like he was thinking that way. FOX had been trying to work with him and he didn't until Eliza convinced him.
 
None of which proves Joss ever said he'd "never work with Fox again". I'm sorry, but it just doesn't sound like something he'd say. He's generally diplomatic (unless, of course, he talking about Donald Sutherland. 😉 ). Making a judgment call on the intelligence of something that was most likely never said is possibly not to clever in itself.
 
Joss did say it. Here's proof.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=20781

There was a brief Q&A with Joss after the screening that consisted mostly of fans bowing to the altar of Whedon and asking about future plans for the Firefly series, more Serenity movies, and Wonder Woman. Unfortunately, Whedon's microphone wasn't working so I couldn't hear all of his answers even though he raised his voice in an attempt for everyone to hear. What I did hear was:

1) He definitely wants to do another Serenity movie, and hopes that the first one is enough of a success to allow more.

2) The Firefly series broadcast rights are owned by Fox and he will not work with them again, however, if another network bought the rights from Fox, he would definitely consider resurrecting the series.

3) Wonder Woman is taking up all of his time these days. Casting is ongoing, and he will only choose someone with the gravitas (his wording) to pull it off.
 
Yeah, see that's what I thought it would be. Not a quote. No context. An interpretation from a guy who says he wasn't hearing everything said well, and admits, "I've made no secret of not being able to get into Whedon's work."

Whedon said recently the network now isn't represented by the same people who were around then. So was his beef with the studio, or the people who were running it at the time. Is he saying for example, "I won't work with those guys again", and the writer of the article interprets that as meaning Joss will never work for the Fox network ever no matter who's running it. Without context you can't really tell.

Plus there's the context of the venue, and the circumstances. This is a Q & A after a viewing for fans, it's not an interview with Variety. It's an informal bitch at worst, not a formal declaration. Context is important, because the implication was Joss had stupidly burnt his bridges with the whole studio permanently, regardless of who was running it. I would have found that uncharacteristic. Plus I would wonder why these new guys at Fox had been pursuing him to come back to TV, and do something for Fox as they claimed they had been.

Here's an example of why context is important. I've heard Joss say on multiple occasions Gunn was to die in the alley, but I could never tell if he was serious, or not. Since that time Amy Acker has supported the claim, so there most likely was something to it, but from the quotes themselves, and the context in which they appeared I became hesitant about quoting it as fact.
 
Why is it so hard to believe that Joss could say that? Here's more proof.

Tim Goodman. The Bastard Machine : Joss Whedon returning to television

-I might be completely off my nut, but didn't he swear he'd never work with Fox again?

Slashdot | Joss Whedon Back on TV

-I thought Wheadon swore he would never work with Fox again after their mishandling of Firefly? What the hell is this?

-Thought he swore he'd never do another program for FOX again after the treatment Firefly got

Joss Whedon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The treatment that Firefly received at the hands of Fox executives has caused Whedon to state that he would not work with Fox again. As of November 2007 he appears to have changed his mind, with new show Dollhouse being developed at Fox.
 
slayerpower said:
Why is it so hard to believe that Joss could say that? Here's more proof.
Click to expand...

It's not. I just want to see the context, before I make the final decision on what an allegation really means. Now here's a question for you. Why is it you guys who are reluctant to post links (remember me? I'm the guy who's had to add links to your posts) to the source find it so hard to understand why others might want them?

The source speaks volumes. For example what you are calling proof in this case are 2 examples of people asking if some rumor they heard is true, and one example of Wikipedia making reference to the single source of that rumor. We've already seen that source, and to be honest I'm pretty sure I'd heard that one, before I originally asked for it. I'd written it off as not important. I wanted to know if there was something more substantial.

And yes, I do know if you google you'll find pages of people asking about that rumor, some even linking to the single example of the original source. That source being an interpretation of an admittedly fuzzy soundbyte from, an admitted critic of Whedon, concerning a Q & A at a small fan gathering where Whedon was goofing about with them. We have no idea what the context of that remark was. Was he serious.? He often isn't. What exactly was he referring to? Was he referring to specific individuals, or Fox the network. We really don't know, but a more recent remark which I actually can give you a link to, if you want it, suggests he was talking about individuals who were working for Fox at the time, and yes, he had some hard feelings. The context is important in this particular case (and even more so in others), because it gives us an idea as to whether he was making a snarky remark with friendly fans concerning individuals he'd had a problem with, much as we've heard him do concerning Donald Sutherland while making Buffy the Movie, or was he making a firm declaration of resolve never to work with the Fox network again. I continue to suggest it's the former, and that's why it's important to see the source. It allows you to make an informed decision.

You know the one I hate? It's when I ask for a link, and they tell me it's in Buffy magazine, or on a DVD commetary. I have no idea how true the comment is, or what it really means if there is some truth in it, because I can't see the context.
 
You're right, it's impossible to tell the context of things, (especially that Joss says) without a source. And even then, you'd need a video of it. I could take the "special features" from our Firefly and Serenity DVDs and if I just typed them out...then he hates most of the cast. He's too sarcastic and/or downright goofy to go just by a transcript.

Still, Fox hasn't proved much to me. Granted, it may not be the same people who killed Firefly, but their general M.O. has never been something that has warmed my heart.
I've seen them take GOOD TV shows and use them as "filler" until American Idol can start or even worse, So You Think You Can Dance.

Two summers in a row I got sucked into a show and it would disappear arounf the 4th of July. Usually they'd show something like Independance Day. And the next week, So You Think You Can Dance or something else jolly would come on. I'd write and they'd say it would be back in August. And when it didn't come back on, I'd write again and they'd say it was canceled due to lack of viewers. How they expect to have viewers when they aren't showing it, is beyond me...but oh well.

I was TERRIFIED to watch Bones. I just knew I'd be sucked in and it would be cancelled. Replaced by Bernie Mac reruns.
Which has just NEVER made sense. Both of the shows that I liked that they canceled they HAD more that they COULD show and instead show a rerun? They come across as very STRANGE business people to me. Both Fox and FX. They don't care if their viewers are mad, they want to do what they want. It's like giving my 5 year old her own network.

And, now they don't even answer viewer mail.

I FEAR for Dollhouse. I might riot if they use it as filler before American Idol.
 
Oh, I know. I'm still pissed at them for Drive. I really liked that show. I still think it could have been a hit with the proper attention, and come to think of it, wouldn't that have been the new guys looking after that one?
 
S
Superstar
Oh massive karma for mentioning Drive!
The president has changed since Drive, and I'm sure a lot of executives have too.

Whenever I think about Drive I do get pretty upset. I wouldn't have been as bothered if it had filmed 13 episodes...but SIX? Completely unfair. That show was amazing, I don't get why so many people didn't like it.

But I do think FOX kinda screwed it up. A two-night premiere for a new show at the end of the season is NOT going to attract a lot of people. Had it premiered early March behind American Idol, I think it would have been more fair. But a three hour premiere is a lot to commit to for most people.
 
Didn't mean to be so confrontational with you, nerd4hire, it's just seems silly that Joss would work with a network that not only killed Firefly after 13 episodes, but cancelled all other shows done by Whedonverse writers. I had hoped that he and all other Whedonverse writers would never work with them again because of the way FOX has treated them.
 
I think the Joss shows get cancelled all the time because the networks are too busy comparing his stuff to Buffy(which obviously is gonna be better than anything else he does). So id say Joss is happy just to find a network that will actually show 1 season of his stuff, never mind showing 3 or 4 seasons. I watched Serenity and although 'I' liked it, if his other work is as similar to Btvs as FF/Serenity/Tru Calling is, i can see how a network may think it AINT original enough.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom