Could Vamp Willow have been redeemed (like Spike)?

[Mott1]

Okay, what if Vamp Willow had not been able to go back to her dimension, and had to stick around with the 'good' Scoobies? Would she have gone to college as human Willow's twin (or to night school, perhaps)? Would she have got chipped by the Initiative? Would she have ended up fighting alongside the others against the forces of evil - and, being very powerful, not just as one of Buffy's cheerleaders? And what effect would any of this have had on 'Red'?

These days, when I think of characters getting their own spin offs, this is an unlikely but intriguing one!

 

[NotASlayer]

The problem with this is that Spike wasn't redeemed in Buffy; he only started regretting his actions after having a soul forced him, dying, seeing Hell and getting his hands chopped off partway through Angel S5, at which point his redemption started. Until then, he'd literally said something along the lines of him not caring about redemption. Prior to that, he was, as stated, a leashed serial killer.

There was a fundamental problem with trying to do a redemption like that in the show. Angel's redemption process took something like a century; rather hard doing something comparable in a few months. Given a few decades for Spike and he might have been redeemed, though his relationship with Buffy was long past redemption.

I doubt Vampire Willow would have changed. Being chipped just makes her another leashed serial killer and prior to that, she'd have just killed, having no motivation to do otherwise. At best. she would have left town to avoid being staked for her actions.

 

[garfan]

The problem with this is that Spike wasn't redeemed in Buffy; he only started regretting his actions after having a soul forced him, dying, seeing Hell and getting his hands chopped off partway through Angel S5, at which point his redemption started. Until then, he'd literally said something along the lines of him not caring about redemption. Prior to that, he was, as stated, a leashed serial killer.

There was a fundamental problem with trying to do a redemption like that in the show. Angel's redemption process took something like a century; rather hard doing something comparable in a few months. Given a few decades for Spike and he might have been redeemed, though his relationship with Buffy was long past redemption.

I doubt Vampire Willow would have changed. Being chipped just makes her another leashed serial killer and prior to that, she'd have just killed, having no motivation to do otherwise. At best. she would have left town to avoid being staked for her actions.

Redemption is a concept that is going to vary between different people

Personally, I felt Angel was more redeemed at times in the show when he wasn't actively trying for it

 

[wolfheart]

I think she went her own way and was chipped, then joined the scoobies and fight evil...

 

[NotASlayer]

Personally, I felt Angel was more redeemed at times in the show when he wasn't actively trying for it

Agreed. Otherwise, it's like "doing good" when the end goal is the cosmic brownie points earned for the actions. Which is not doing good; it's doing something and expecting a reward for it.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I don't think so... Vampire Willow was pretty damn evil. Both Angel and Spike had help with their redemptions; Angel was cursed and Spike was chipped. I think Vampire Willow was past redemption.

 

[Mott1]

Good points, particularly Not A Slayer! But could 'our' Willow have been a good influence on her? Did Vamp Willow end up feeling some genuine fondness for Red by the end of Doppelgangland (as well as her behind!?)

 

[NotASlayer]

Vampires, as depicted, aren't good. They are, as depicted, evil people eating monsters. They can be forced to behave, such as by the chip, or by a more powerful evil such as W&H or the Mayor, or because they've had a soul forced on them. Not one was shown choosing to be good in the show (no, not even Spike as depicted, and only his charm and cheekbones make anyone think otherwise); at best they were leashed evil. Sometimes amusing leashed evil, but evil all the same. Their lack of a soul means that things can't be a good influence on them. Vampire Willow's interest in Willow would have been more driven by baser impulses, as well as perhaps the amusing idea of being able to literally go frack herself. 😀

 

[garfan]

Vampires, as depicted, aren't good. They are, as depicted, evil people eating monsters. They can be forced to behave, such as by the chip, or by a more powerful evil such as W&H or the Mayor, or because they've had a soul forced on them. Not one was shown choosing to be good in the show (no, not even Spike as depicted, and only his charm and cheekbones make anyone think otherwise); at best they were leashed evil. Sometimes amusing leashed evil, but evil all the same. Their lack of a soul means that things can't be a good influence on them. Vampire Willow's interest in Willow would have been more driven by baser impulses, as well as perhaps the amusing idea of being able to literally go frack herself. 😀

Actually it's not just charm and cheekbones that get people thinking of Spike as choising good.

It's Doomed. He us depicted in tgat episode as being ready to stake himself until he discovers he can hit demons and that gives him a reason to live again.

Doing good isn't as good as doing evil but it's better than non existence.

This combined with his obsession with Slayers and his sudden kill of that one guy in School Hard contributes to many fans belief that Spike's favorite thing is the fight and all that fear and torture stuff other vamps love is a minor thing for him.

They add to this with his flashback origin where we find out the type of torture he's known for may just have been one of his earliest victims who actually gave Spike the idea

 

[NotASlayer]

Spike enjoys violence for its own sake. That's not doing good; that's enjoying violence. What the violence accomplishes is irrelevant. The specific description: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight

 

[garfan]

Spike enjoys violence for its own sake. That's not doing good; that's enjoying violence. What the violence accomplishes is irrelevant. The specific description: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight

This was the 90s early 2000s where popular media was still dealing with the hero who does violence for the sake of violence and treating them as unquestioned goid guys was super common

 

[NotASlayer]

Spike, though, was not a good guy and never chose the path of good (prior to late Angel season 5, which was long after the soul was forced on him). That's my point; no vampire ever chose to be good, or not to do harm. That was forced on them all by something else in every case shown.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I don't believe that Wishverse vampires are just humans with the thirst. The Master took special care when creating them, they are cruel and psychotic, fanatics who share his vision of conquering humanity for the Old Ones. It's not like with Harmony or Russell. There's nothing human left when the Master is done.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

No. She was more like Angelus...

 

[hoponlilmama]

I think the answer can be summed up in two words on whether Vamp Willow could be/want to be redeemed:
"Bored now"

 

[thetopher]

I'm sure that if Buffy and co hadn't let loose VampWillow back in her own dimension then they would've at least tried- very hard- to redeem her. Willow literally demanded that she not be killed and so they'd have to figure out what to do with her. Lock her in the library cage day and night? College is a long way off.

Worst/Realistic case; Vampwillow is remarkable cruel and sadistic vampire and presumably was the right hand of The Master for a reason. Left unchecked she is kind of a mini-bad like Sunday but recurring, leading her own band of vamps and trying to kill the slayer, recruit Xander, seduce/convert her 'other' self, etc

Best case; VampWillow, cut off from all she knows, acts kinda like Illyria, hanging around Xander and co with a major case of ennui, then she is chipped and undergoes some kind of gradual moral metamorphosis. Falls in love with Tara, Tara tries to show her the way of being sweetness and light, eventually VampWillow hurts/bites Tara is some misguided effort and then demands actual Willow ensoul her or some nonsense.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I'm sure that if Buffy and co hadn't let loose VampWillow back in her own dimension then they would've at least tried- very hard- to redeem her. Willow literally demanded that she not be killed and so they'd have to figure out what to do with her. Lock her in the library cage day and night? College is a long way off.

Worst/Realistic case; Vampwillow is remarkable cruel and sadistic vampire and presumably was the right hand of The Master for a reason. Left unchecked she is kind of a mini-bad like Sunday but recurring, leading her own band of vamps and trying to kill the slayer, recruit Xander, seduce/convert her 'other' self, etc

Best case; VampWillow, cut off from all she knows, acts kinda like Illyria, hanging around Xander and co with a major case of ennui, then she is chipped and undergoes some kind of gradual moral metamorphosis. Falls in love with Tara, Tara tries to show her the way of being sweetness and light, eventually VampWillow hurts/bites Tara is some misguided effort and then demands actual Willow ensoul her or some nonsense.

I say bomb it from space 'til it glows! Trying to 'save' her is just a ridiculous idea.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

What a lovely idea, if only Vamp Willow had stayed, I dare say (hope even) Willow and Vamp Willow would have become lovers.
That would have made the question about if Willow was gay or not a non-starter.
Though I would wonder about this, would they have chosen to wear a matching fluffy sweater or the mmm leather jump suit.

My question would be, which one of them would look down and say, "ooh look at them!" When Xander or Giles was winning an argument with her?