IMO yes because Angel would simply be paying lip service to Buffy's opinion, going through the motions or whatever. He would be letting her opinion influence what he does with his entire existence thereafter.
Sorry, but Angel is not Spike, he's not all about the girl.
Talking with people about decisions is just a good idea in general. Other people can see stuff that you don't. Isn't that the entire point of 'When She Was Bad'? And anyway, if it's lip service, then what's wrong with that? People pay lip service all the time. It's like in 'The Prom', when Angel broke up with Buffy - he didn't move to L.A and then tell her told her about the break-up over the phone, he talked to her face-to-face about it, before it happened. He payed lip-service, which is what he should have done. That's what he should have done in 'I Will Remember you', too.
Because it is his body. It is literally the biggest physical thing that happens to anybody on either show- it is like anti-dying, living again, becoming mortal, the Shanshu.
That is absolutely Angel's choice and it is SO big that I don't care if Buffy had stomped her foot and shouted NO from the rooftops, its ultimately Angel's choice entirely.
Yep. He has the right to be turned back, sure. It's his decision. But it's a decision that also influences Buffy, and he should have talked to her first.
No he doesn't, he goes to the Oracles to specifically ask if what the Mohra demon said was true, when they battled. Was it smack talk or accurate.
The Oracles said sure, armies are on the rise, the slayer will die sooner than most. Big whoop.
THAT is when Angel makes his choice, he's desperate to avert the destiny as they have seen it and so he says all 'change me back', they say 'we can't go playing around with that' but one of them says that there is one way alone. Angel takes that- because its his destiny, its up to him.
That's not the impression I got out of it. Angel wasn't surprised by the oracles when they said that armies would rise, and he was really quick to decide, and he really didn't seem overly emotional about it. The way I see it, he came to them knowing what he wanted to ask, and his questions were just to make sure. YMMV.
See I like him, and I like Buffy, because they are leaders and their opinions/actions often affect more people than them. BUT those opinions always weihg heavily on them. They both feel that weight of responsibility; Buffy might be alone because of her slayer-ness (even now) but Angel is alone because of his circumstances, his curse.
Those decisions, their consequences, have to made by somebody and they got the short end because of who they are- chosen and cursed.
Man, I sound like such a Bangel, but I'm not.
Heh, you have my sympathies.
🙂 Shippers make discussions into minefields...
Anyway: I agree with what you said here. I just think that there is a difference between Buffy an Angel in the way they see that responsibility - Buffy sees it as more of a burden, whereas Angel sees it as more of an opportunity to make amends. Of course Angel isn't like "yay I get to brainwash my friends how fun", but he is more willing to do these kinds of things than Buffy. Buffy always wants to escape from those choices, and only does them when she feels she has absolutely no choice. Angel is more accepting of his responsibility, because of his unique history and situation (he can't pursue happines, he feels he has to make amends, etc...), and sometimes he's TOO accepting of his responsibility. That's my basic point.
Hmn, well in that case Buffy and co dies when Dawn showed up in S5.
Their previous selves were 'erased' and replaced with new people with new memories alongside those old ones. Because that's basically what Connor in S5 is, the same kid with other memoires to go along side his old ones. It's just that those new memories are a stabilizing influence (unlike Dawn! 😀)
Was what the monks did really necessary? We don't really know but they did what they did.
Well, the difference is that the monks only ALTERED Buffy and co's memories to insert Dawn, whereas Connor was reconstructed from scratch. But yes, the monks also violated Buffy and co when they created Dawn, absolutely.
It's seems obvious to me that the spell was broken and everyone remembered the truth as it actually happened. I mean, Xander refers to what Connor did in S10, so HE knew the truth of it, I'm guessing everyboddy did.
But its like Cordelia in AtS S5- nobody even mentions her death, which is way bigger than all that Connor stuff.
As for the lack of reaction; bigger things. Fred is dead, Illyria is standing about in her corpse, Gunn in (at that point) a hell dimension (I think), they are all in deep with W&H.
Wesley is obviously the most affected by it because well, he gone and ballsed up Connor's life but good. An accident sure, but...well, Wesley thought he knew better than everybody else and made a unilateral decision and an innocent child paid the price....😉
Wesley is a lot like Angel in that aspect, yes. Mostly because he constantly wants to prove his worth, as a result of his own lack of self-confidence. Anyway - Angel's memory-wipe never really got the proper follow-up, IMO. The ending of 'Origin' always seemed a little too forgiving of it, to me. The lack of follow-up to Cordy's death also bothers me.
But that's really another issue.
You could make the argument is all I'm saying. You could say that Buffy makes more decision without the input of her friends than Angel ever has. The reason for that? Well, maybe she's controlling, like you say Angel is. She decides who knows what and who makes the big calls- mainly her and her alone.
It's a viable interpretation.
The only evidence that I see of Angel forcing his will on others- which is what we're saying here- is 'IWRY' (Again, its his body/destiny) and the end of S4 for his son's benefit.
I just don't see that as indicative of Angel's entire outlook or thought process.
You don't think that Angel's manipulative plan in 5x21 is another BIG example of it? And his behaviour in the middle of season 2, when he demands that book from Cordy forcefully, for example? And the end of season 4 is just the most obvious. I'm
not saying that Buffy is Captain America and Angel is Loki, I'm saying that Angel is just MORE willing to do these types of stuff.
I agree with that last part.
Liam was a womanizing drunken layabout, doesn't really scream alpha male to me. He maybe would've turned INTO one- see Angelus' wish to be the biggest and most terrifying bastard ever.
Angel spent a hundred years or so not being very alpha male-y or controlling. If that was his personality, it wouldn't have remained dormant for so long.
Liam was a guy who constantly got into brawls and slept with whoever he could, and generally thought with his penis and did whatever he felt like. That's pretty alpha-ish, IMO. And as Angelus, he DID become the biggest and most terrifying bastard ever - remember how he was treated as a vamp celebrity in season 4 of AtS when he lost his soul?
'If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.'
His obsession with big picture thinking/the future/ redeption comes and goes in waves, just like his need for a quick fix to his circumstance- death by sunrise, the war with W&H, trying to get his son back, joining up with W&H.
It's about how Angel sees himself and his circumstances, not everyone else.
It's about how Angel sees himself and his circumstances, but it manifests in ways that affect everyone else - when he wanted to achieve the Shanshu in season 2 (after Darla was re-vamped), he did whatever he felt he needed, without any consideration to the wishes of others, and that's the problem. He was so goal oriented that he didn't see anyone else's goals. It was the same with Connor in season 4. And again in season 5. and AGAIN (in a bigger way than ever) in the comics. Angel doesn't WANT to control everyone, he just does it sometimes because he's overly goal oriented.
That's a point. Angel's curse means lack of progress in his life. Can he moves towards happiness? Is he allowed to since his curse won't let him (in his mind)?
Just that knowledge 'you get too happy, too content, and you lose everything' that's a weight no one else can feel, that's why I feel for the guy, I really do.
Well, for me, Bruce Banner pulls off the "I can't ever be happy" thing in a more relatable way, but that's just me. But yes, that's definitely one of the most intriguing aspects of Angel's character.
