Could you see Angel helping Dawn in season 5 like Spike did?

[white avenger]

Also Dawn apparently had a big crush on Angel

A false memory created by a bunch of monks. Weird that they would toss in a detail like that. I wonder if they included the first time that she ever...Nah, that's just TOO weird. Even for a bunch of monks. Dern bunch o' perverts, putting memories like that into the head of an innocent young girl.

 

[thetopher]

A false memory created by a bunch of monks.

In that case so is Dawn's crush on Xander- is simply a false memory that she 'bought into'. Her relationship is based on a lie.

Then again, its more likely that Dawn's memories were built, but how she interpreted them shaped her personality/experiences, which is why she starts off as so immature for a 14 year old.

 

[Lyri]

Angel and Spike's alpha or beta personalities have no basis on the topic at hand.

The reason why I (and certain other Angel fans 🙂) don't think that Angel would help Dawn is because it is - as it's most basic level - morally wrong to try to bring Joyce back from the dead. It was wrong to bring Buffy back from the dead and I don't think Angel would have agreed to that, either. Angel, more than anyone at that point, understands what that means and what it entails. While he would be completely sympathetic to Dawn's feelings, he would understand the consequences better than anyone and he would never allow her to even attempt something like this.

 

[Guy]

Angel and Spike's alpha or beta personalities have no basis on the topic at hand.

The reason why I (and certain other Angel fans 🙂) don't think that Angel would help Dawn is because it is - as it's most basic level - morally wrong to try to bring Joyce back from the dead. It was wrong to bring Buffy back from the dead and I don't think Angel would have agreed to that, either. Angel, more than anyone at that point, understands what that means and what it entails. While he would be completely sympathetic to Dawn's feelings, he would understand the consequences better than anyone and he would never allow her to even attempt something like this.

Well, that's an interesting question - IS it morally wrong to bring someone back from the dead? And if it is, then why?

I mean, what's the difference between resurrecting someone and healing a dying person, really? Why is one wrong and the other OK?

 

[Lyri]

Buffy was dragged out of her - or the Slayer - version of Heave, she was done, finished, and she got whatever reward she was due. Dragging her out of that and back into a world where she had to put her life on the line night after night and resulted in a major depressive episode that I don't think she will ever fully recover from - what's good about that? Yeah, they have the Slayer back and they have their friend and sister back, but this was NOT what Buffy wanted and they did this without knowing if it was what she actually wanted.

Joyce was a zombie. We saw that shuffling, drooling mess that was nothing even close the real Joyce. What's good about that?

I'm one of those fans who wishes that the show ended in S5 - Buffy fulfilled her duty and saved the world, she deserved her rest.

 

[Guy]

Buffy was dragged out of her - or the Slayer - version of Heave, she was done, finished, and she got whatever reward she was due. Dragging her out of that and back into a world where she had to put her life on the line night after night and resulted in a major depressive episode that I don't think she will ever fully recover from - what's good about that? Yeah, they have the Slayer back and they have their friend and sister back, but this was NOT what Buffy wanted and they did this without knowing if it was what she actually wanted.

Joyce was a zombie. We saw that shuffling, drooling mess that was nothing even close the real Joyce. What's good about that?

I'm one of those fans who wishes that the show ended in S5 - Buffy fulfilled her duty and saved the world, she deserved her rest.

Zombie!Joyce was bad, no argument there.

But why should Buffy stay dead? Because it felt good? Plenty of things feel good, but that doesn't always mean that they're the right thing to do. Why is it that resurrecting Buffy in 6x01 is wrong, when (as I assume you'd agree) resurrecting her via CPR in 1x12 was right? Should we NOT try to prevent death whenever we can?

Maybe I'm just weird, but it seems clear to me that death is simply a bad thing. Some things are worth dying for, sure, but death itself is never good. We're all gonna get there anyway, eventually, so why rush?

Life can be painful, sure, but how can DEATH possibly be any better?

 

[thetopher]

Maybe I'm just weird, but it seems clear to me that death is simply a bad thing.

But surely it isn't about bad or good, its about what's natural.
Death is natural, resurrection isn't. Ripping somebody out of heaven isn't natural its against natural law- as Tara stated.

All things end, including people. Trying to artificially reverse that isn't good. By all means try and stop somebody from passing over into death. But if they're already dead and gone then leave them in peace.

 

[Lyri]

CPR is VASTLY different to what Willow and Co. did. It's not even a comparison as far as I'm concerned. The CPR in 'Prophecy Girl' was Xander hoping that he could save her and desperately trying anything. It was an accident and something that, in the real world, could and does happen and proved that Buffy wasn't actually as dead as The Master had thought. CPR doesn't work on a person after a certain amount of time and if Buffy had been brain dead, might not have worked at all. Willow in 'Bargaining' is playing God, desecrating a dead body, it's something that shouldn't be possible, and, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't have even been attempted. It's dark magic that even Giles - the guy who summoned a demon to get high - disapproved of.

It's not about the fact that death isn't a bad thing - it's the fact that death is supposed to be final. I have NEVER been a fan of bringing people back from the dead. To me, it's an insult to them. Their fight is over, they are done. And then they're torn and ripped back into real live and told 'yep, you gotta fight now and save the world; 'cause that's all you're good for.' I mean, no one even stopped to think about the fact that Buffy might have been in Heaven. What does that say about Willow and Co.'s opinion of Buffy that they just assumed that she'd go to hell like Angel?

Yes, death is sad, but it's death, it's natural, and it shouldn't be messed with.

 

[Guy]

But surely it isn't about bad or good, its about what's natural.
Death is natural, resurrection isn't. Ripping somebody out of heaven isn't natural its against natural law- as Tara stated.

All things end, including people. Trying to artificially reverse that isn't good. By all means try and stop somebody from passing over into death. But if they're already dead and gone then leave them in peace.

Well, that doesn't seem logical to me. So what if it's natural? There are plenty of natural things that we violate every day, every minute. Our teeth rot naturally, but that doesn't stop me from using a toothbrush to stop that rot as much as I can.

And so what if they're ALREADY dead? If it's possible to bring them back, then what's the problem? How is it any different from stopping an injured person from dying?

Lyri:

CPR is VASTLY different to what Willow and Co. did. It's not even a comparison as far as I'm concerned. The CPR in 'Prophecy Girl' was Xander hoping that he could save her and desperately trying anything. It was an accident and something that, in the real world, could and does happen and proved that Buffy wasn't actually as dead as The Master had thought. CPR doesn't work on a person after a certain amount of time and if Buffy had been brain dead, might not have worked at all. Willow in 'Bargaining' is playing God, desecrating a dead body, it's something that shouldn't be possible, and, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't have even been attempted. It's dark magic that even Giles - the guy who summoned a demon to get high - disapproved of.

It's not about the fact that death isn't a bad thing - it's the fact that death is supposed to be final. I have NEVER been a fan of bringing people back from the dead. To me, it's an insult to them. Their fight is over, they are done. And then they're torn and ripped back into real live and told 'yep, you gotta fight now and save the world; 'cause that's all you're good for.' I mean, no one even stopped to think about the fact that Buffy might have been in Heaven. What does that say about Willow and Co.'s opinion of Buffy that they just assumed that she'd go to hell like Angel?

Yes, death is sad, but it's death, it's natural, and it shouldn't be messed with.

Again I ask - why? Why is death supposed to be final? And why is "heaven" (which can mean plenty of different things) any better than life? And why shouldn't we change natural things?
It seems like Buffy was kept in some form of prison, when she was in "heaven". She was happy there, perhaps, but she wasn't a free person. She couldn't choose to leave. She couldn't choose anything. What's so good about that?

 

[Lyri]

So, you think Buffy was happy in S6 to find out that her so-called friends ripped her out of her 'safe, warm, done' place and put her back into what she assumed was hell? You think Buffy was in any way happy that they'd done that to her, just because they missed her, or assumed she was in hell or thought that the world needed a Slayer more than Buffy needed her reward? Buffy was devastated during that conversation with Spike, she hated that she was brought back to life by the people she trusted most. She had to crawl out of her own grave for crying out loud, what in God's name is 'good' about any of that?

As far as I''m concerned, I still believe that Buffy would choose to stay dead. Despite the fact that she's better now - she's not cured, she'll never be cured - it took a lot for Buffy to get to this point, she went through a lot of bad stuff because of what Willow did, stuff that she didn't have to go through. Her depression and everything that happened in S6 and beyond because of it is because of Willow's (selfish) actions. NO ONE ASKED BUFFY WHAT SHE WANTED!!

It's a supernatural show, I get that, I'm not an idiot. But I still believe - and I will always believe - that death is the one thing not to be messed with. How the hell would the world function if we just brought EVERY person who died back to life? What would the world be like? What about the people who died because of serious burns, or bisection or decapitation? Do they deserve to 'live' like that? What kind of a life is that for anyone? Death is the end, it's the one constant in every story, movie, book and TV show that ever existed. And we are constantly taught that messing with death only leads to bad things.

I will never, ever, believe that bringing Buffy back from the dead was in anyway the right thing or a good thing to do, for anyone.

 

[thetopher]

Well, that doesn't seem logical to me. So what if it's natural? There are plenty of natural things that we violate every day, every minute. Our teeth rot naturally, but that doesn't stop me from using a toothbrush to stop that rot as much as I can.

But that's not preventing something permanently, its just putting it off. So yeah, put something off but just 'cause you CAN do something, doesn't mean that you should do something.
That's a lesson Willow learns at great cost. Magic. Has. Consequences.

Everything dies, a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts, it had a beginning, a middle and a natural end.

 

[Guy]

So, you think Buffy was happy in S6 to find out that her so-called friends ripped her out of her 'safe, warm, done' place and put her back into what she assumed was hell? You think Buffy was in any way happy that they'd done that to her, just because they missed her, or assumed she was in hell or thought that the world needed a Slayer more than Buffy needed her reward? Buffy was devastated during that conversation with Spike, she hated that she was brought back to life by the people she trusted most. She had to crawl out of her own grave for crying out loud, what in God's name is 'good' about any of that?

As far as I''m concerned, I still believe that Buffy would choose to stay dead. Despite the fact that she's better now - she's not cured, she'll never be cured - it took a lot for Buffy to get to this point, she went through a lot of bad stuff because of what Willow did, stuff that she didn't have to go through. Her depression and everything that happened in S6 and beyond because of it is because of Willow's (selfish) actions. NO ONE ASKED BUFFY WHAT SHE WANTED!!

I think Buffy was happy in 'Grave'. I think Buffy was happy in 'Chosen'. There were periods of pain and misery, yes... But that's simply a part of life. Buffy had to deal with a lot of pain after she was revived in 1x12, too. I don't see why Buffy's depression should mean that she should have stayed dead. Depression is a thing that many people go through, and death isn't the answer for it. The answer to depression is LIFE.

And I believe that by the end of season 6, Buffy was happy that she was resurrected. She pretty much says so to Dawn.

And anyway - in "heaven", Buffy COULDN'T choose anything. Willow couldn't "ask" her. You can't ask a dead person anything. A dead person CAN'T choose anything.

It's a supernatural show, I get that, I'm not an idiot. But I still believe - and I will always believe - that death is the one thing not to be messed with. How the hell would the world function if we just brought EVERY person who died back to life? What would the world be like? What about the people who died because of serious burns, or bisection or decapitation? Do they deserve to 'live' like that? What kind of a life is that for anyone? Death is the end, it's the one constant in every story, movie, book and TV show that ever existed. And we are constantly taught that messing with death only leads to bad things.

I will never, ever, believe that bringing Buffy back from the dead was in anyway the right thing or a good thing to do, for anyone.

Well, in real life we don't have that dillema, because we can't bring dead people back to life. In the Buffyverse, resurrection is possible, and that raises some questions.

It obviously varies from case to case - if someone can only be brought back to life without a properly functioning body (like zombie!Joyce, for example), then that is obviously not worth it. But Buffy's case is different - she was resurrected in the "right" way, with her old normal body.

I guess my question is - WHY must death be the end? WHY must it be the one constant? I get the idea that the "bargaining" stage of grief is unhealthy and dangerous (and that is the REAL reason that stories always paint resurrections as bad), but the resurrection question is a different thing - why shouldn't we resurrect someone if we can do it PROPERLY, like with Buffy?

thetopher:

But that's not preventing something permanently, its just putting it off. So yeah, put something off but just 'cause you CAN do something, doesn't mean that you should do something.
That's a lesson Willow learns at great cost. Magic. Has. Consequences.

Everything dies, a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts, it had a beginning, a middle and a natural end.

1) I get the "magic has consequences" thing. That's not the issue. I'm asking the philosophical question - why shouldn't we resurrect a dead person, if we can do it properly?

2) If we can "put off" death, then why shouldn't we reverse it too (If we can)? I don't see why delaying is OK but reversing isn't.

3) A thing isn't beautiful because it lasts, true. But Buffy's resurrection won't be endless - she'll grow old and die, eventually. The resurrection just fixes the hiccup of a premature death. I mean, why should she be allowed to stay dead when she's barely 20 years old, if it can be helped?


The only LOGICAL argument against Buffy's resurrection, as I see it, is that it was too DANGEROUS. As Giles says in 6x04. I get THAT. But other than that, I don't see any logical reason to leave Buffy dead when there's the option of resurrecting her properly.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Natural death in the show can't be reversed. Willow wanted to bring Tara back but got shut down by Osiris. Buffy's resurrection was only possible because her death was supernatural.

ZombieJoyce wasn't real Joyce because her death was of natural causes. It's likely the spell only reanimated her body but it wasn't Joyce. The lights were on but nobody was home.

 

[thetopher]

And anyway - in "heaven", Buffy COULDN'T choose anything. Willow couldn't "ask" her.

But Willow could've actually found out WHERE BUFFY WAS before casting the spell to pull her out of whereever. She didn't, that is a bad thing.
If Willow had known that Buffy was happy and in heaven, I like to think she would've left her there- just like Angel did with Cordelia.

1) I get the "magic has consequences" thing. That's not the issue. I'm asking the philosophical question - why shouldn't we resurrect a dead person, if we can do it properly?

Because then death would lose all meaning, and life by its very nature would be diminished. I mean, philosophically speaking. Practically we'd have to stop having babies if nobody died.

2) If we can "put off" death, then why shouldn't we reverse it too (If we can)? I don't see why delaying is OK but reversing isn't.

See above, immortality is not a natural state. Death is part of a cycle yada yada.
I mean, unnatural death -i.e murder or tragic accident is bad but a natural death that somebody chose- like Buffy did- is not bad.

3) A thing isn't beautiful because it lasts, true. But Buffy's resurrection won't be endless - she'll grow old and die, eventually. The resurrection just fixes the hiccup of a premature death. I mean, why should she be allowed to stay dead when she's barely 20 years old, if it can be helped?

I never said I was against what Willow did, I merely said that death is not evil, it is simply natural.

 

[Guy]

But Willow could've actually found out WHERE BUFFY WAS before casting the spell to pull her out of whereever. She didn't, that is a bad thing.
If Willow had known that Buffy was happy and in heaven, I like to think she would've left her there- just like Angel did with Cordelia.

Why should Willow leave her just because she's in "heaven"? If Buffy is in this "heaven", then she may be happy, but she isn't free. She can't choose to leave, and she can't choose anything. How is that good? That "heavenly dimension" was essentially just a very comfortable prison.

And your choice of Cordy and Angel as an example is pretty ironic, given that Cordy WANTED TO LEAVE, and was pissed that Angel didn't try to get her out.

Because then death would lose all meaning, and life by its very nature would be diminished. I mean, philosophically speaking. Practically we'd have to stop having babies if nobody died.

How would the meaningless-ness of death diminish life?

See above, immortality is not a natural state. Death is part of a cycle yada yada.

But, again - what does that ACTUALLY MEAN? Immortality is unnatural, OK, but what's wrong with that? What's so important about being natural?

Also - I'm not even asking why we shouldn't live an immortal life, I'm just asking why not to bring back people who died prematurely, like Buffy.

I mean, unnatural death -i.e murder or tragic accident is bad but a natural death that somebody chose- like Buffy did- is not bad.

What on earth was natural about Buffy's death?! Even if we put aside the supernatural-ness of it - She chose it because she wanted to stop the apocalypse and save Dawn, not because she wanted to stop living. And hey, if she DID want to stop living, then that's suicidal tendancies, and I would have stopped her if I could. There was nothing natural about her death.

I mean, I can understand a willing death from someone like Nicholas Flamel (from 'Harry Potter'), who lived a bijillion years and chose to die out of the comfort of his wealthy home, but Buffy was freakin' TWENTY YEARS OLD! She was still barely more than a child, and she was in the middle of trying to stop the apocalypse! PLUS she was kinda mentally unbalanced (she went catatonic in 5x21) and on the verge of depression at the time. There was nothing natural or right about her death.

I never said I was against what Willow did, I merely said that death is not evil, it is simply natural.

1) So, you think that resurrecting Buffy was a good decision, then?

2) Death is natural, yes. But I don't see why "natural" is the same as "good".

 

[LeeJones41]

I think the reason why some people argue for the idea of resurrection, especially in a fictional story, is that they might fear death on some level that they are not aware. I think it was wrong of Willow and the other Scoobies to bring Buffy back from the dead. They did it for selfish reasons. And their actions also tell me that they were not mature enough to deal with the death of someone close to them. They were afraid of changes in their lives. And they reacted with a great deal of immaturity.

 

[thetopher]

Why should Willow leave her just because she's in "heaven"?

Because heaven is a good place- mythologically speaking every culture has a paradise/higher plane that you go to when you die.
and we know that Buffy WAS happy

If Buffy is in this "heaven", then she may be happy, but she isn't free. She can't choose to leave, and she can't choose anything.

Okay, so how do you know that Buffy couldn't leave? It's never said one way or the other. All we know is that Buffy didn't want to leave. YOU DON'T KNOW that it was a very nice 'prison', maybe Buffy was with Joyce.
What we are told is that she SAID she was happy and complete- that is how Buffy felt, and you're saying what? That is was still a good thing?
I mean, I don't think Willow was EVER arrogant enough to think that she thwart death just 'cause she could and that was automatically a good thing.

And your choice of Cordy and Angel as an example is pretty ironic, given that Cordy WANTED TO LEAVE, and was pissed that Angel didn't try to get her out.

LOL. That was JASMINE!!
Of course Jasmine- who was influencing/controlling Cordelia- wanted to come down to earth and give people world peace and eat them.
And again, nobody forced Cordelia to ascend, her own (stupid) choice. That was one of the most anti-Cordelia things on the show- for her to go 'I'm going to be a higher power, Yay!' *shakes head*

How would the meaningless-ness of death diminish life?

Of course it would.
Life would go on and on, populations would rise because nobody would be dying, we would eventually have to have no more births (practically speaking). Life would cease to have the same meaning because there would be no more new life.
Existence would be less.

But, again - what does that ACTUALLY MEAN? Immortality is unnatural, OK, but what's wrong with that? What's so important about being natural?

See above; I don't get the problem. Death is part of a cycle, if you get rid of death you disrupt the cycle.

Also - I'm not even asking why we shouldn't live an immortal life, I'm just asking why not to bring back people who died prematurely, like Buffy.

You're not though, you're saying that death is bad and if it can be reversed then it why not? Why does death exist, it sucks, if it can be overcome why shouldn't it and damn the consequences?

Hell, lets bring EVERYONE back from the death who's ever died. Because death is bad and everyone should live forever and ever.

I mean, does that sound like a good thing? Not to me.
Even on the show immortality is shown to be a sort of stagnation of existence; vampires live forever but they don't ever really change or grow. They are incapable without outside intervention- soul or chip.

Also - I'm not even asking why we shouldn't live an immortal life, I'm just asking why not to bring back people who died prematurely, like Buffy.

You said that 'death is bad' and that's what I take issue with. You said that if it can be reversed then why not do that? On the show it tells us why not- several times- through several different characters. Giles, Spike, Buffy herself, the demon they brought back/created. There are dark consequences for messing with the natural order.

I think the strongest things that Buffy doe that season is 1) Not punch Willow in the face and 2) Not try and commit suicide and get back to where she had been before. Because she obviously did not want to leave.

What on earth was natural about Buffy's death?!

I meant that it was was ultimately her choice, getting resurrected and traumatized and waking up inside a box to dig herself out of her grave- that wasn't her choice. That was all on Willow and the others.

Did Willow ultimately do a good thing? I don't know. I'm not really convinced that Buffy is actually happy at the start of S7. She's a bit content perhaps, but she gets fed up quickly as the season goes on .

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

Considering all factors and in hindsight, the resurrection was the right thing to do:

Buffy repeatedly expressed she didn't want to die in S1-5. She wanted to live against the odds of her destiny and make the best of her life. That was the point of Buffy after all. That she was suicidal in The Gift doesn't matter. First, the Scoobies didn't know she wanted to die, second, suicide is a dubitable excuse at best. The resurrection gave Buffy back ALL the choices Glory had denied her. The Gift: Either Buffy or Dawn dies. S06: Buffy can commit suicide if she likes being dead so much. Heck, she even can die heroically by starting to slay recklessly if she fears that slicing her wrists would exclude her from heaven. I think Willow had gotten the message and refrained from a further attempt. Or Buffy could've stayed indefinitely depressed and resentful. Or, my favorite option, she embraces life. You know, seeing Dawn grow up, have fun with her friends who she loves and who love her back, going back to college, fall in love again and honoring Angel's reasons for his departure. Being Buffy! Also, Willow isn't indefinitely responsible for Buffy's happiness. Willow paid a heavy price for the resurrection and Buffy's suffering and there comes the point when Buffy has to get over it, or commits suicide if she's so unhappy. She isn't a child. Or like Xander said to Anya: "Sooner or later, that excuse stops working."

The assumption that Buffy was in hell was valid. The portal was supposed to bring Glory back to her hell dimension and tear the borders to all other dimensions and Earth and Buffy's death wasn't natural. There is no indication in S1-5 that good people like Buffy HAVE TO be rewarded. Buffyverse's motto is rather: "Unfair and awful things happen to good people." than "Heroes get a reward for their sacrifices in life". The Buffyverse is a cruel and an unfair world. Sure, Willow could've tried to find out where she is but we don't know if it's even possible. She was under much pressure, from the inside and outside, and the Axis of Pythia turned out to be the only known, but a false lead anyway. There was not a small amount of rationalization to subdue her doubts on Willow's part, however. Willow's motives had been a mix of selfishness (wanting her friend back, inability to deal with the loss and the pressure as Buffy's substitute, over-confidence in her abilities) and selflessness (wanting to save Buffy from hell, wanting to give Buffy her life back, submitting her own body and soul to mortal danger with the sentiment of being Buffy's 'Big Gun'). Still, heaven wasn't Buffy's choice, she was forced (besides, the portrayal of heaven is pretty unsatisfying since Buffy wasn't even together with her mom or something!). I don't like the pro-death message S06 is conveying and clumsily trying to turn into a pro-life message in "Grave".

Due to Giles' desertion and indifference to Dawn, the Scoobies and the protection of the Hellmouth, they all had died at the latest in being raped to death by the Biker demons. Even without the Biker demons, they had died eventually. Sooner or later, some new Big Bad had popped up. Without the Slayer they're no match against the odds. That Faith wasn't even considered by Giles means in return that Faith's life was damned as well. The Council would've found out of Buffy's demise sooner or later. The Buffybot was just a temporary solution. It's more likely they had assassinated her to get a new Slayer than attempting a rehab after all what we know about the Council. Spike isn't a trustworthy ally forever. It doesn't make sense for the Scoobies to assume that a neutered soulless demon wouldn't a) get tired of Dawn and his promise (from which the Scoobies didn't know anything) after enough time had passed and simply desert them, b) wouldn't turn against them when one day the chip stops working, since he repeatedly expressed his contempt for everyone but the Summer's ladies, c) wouldn't harm or kill them because he failed to render assistance because he was angry at them, for whatsoever reasons, and impulsive. Soulless and chipped Spike is not an asset you can count on in perpetuity. That leaves Willow, Xander and Anya against the Hellmouth. Dawn had been taken away by Hank or youth welfare service. Tara isn't much of an asset besides critique and complaining about Violence Against Natures. Yay. Sure, they could've left as well. To hell with Sunnydale and in extend the world, right? Well, Buffy counted on them to stick together and singled Giles out in particular. So much to Giles. The others at least respected Buffy's last wish to Dawn in "The Gift".

Even the supposed dangerous side effects of resurrections can be qualified. Willow had been reckless, yes (Giles is still a deserting and neglectful hypocrite in Flooded). If not the First, another Big Bad had popped up to destroy the world. Buffy dead, Willow dead, Xander dead, Anya dead, Tara dead, Spike dead/away, Faith in jail or dead, Angel dealing with his own stuff in L.A., Giles slurping tea in England... not the best circumstances. Besides, the explanation of the First's rise because of the resurrection is vague at best. Anya's conclusion that Buffy had been better of dead is grating.

Willow, Anya, Xander and Tara resurrected Buffy mainly because they loved and missed her and saw her death as unfair TO BUFFY. That is both selfish and selfless.

I think the strongest things that Buffy doe that season is 1) Not punch Willow in the face and 2) Not try and commit suicide and get back to where she had been before. Because she obviously did not want to leave.

Well, Buffy made up for that in S07 by treating Willow like an object without free will. Much worse than a punch in the face, IMO. Also, Buffy did try to commit suicide in Bargaining but Dawn stopped her.

 

[Guy]

LeeJones41:

I think the reason why some people argue for the idea of resurrection, especially in a fictional story, is that they might fear death on some level that they are not aware. I think it was wrong of Willow and the other Scoobies to bring Buffy back from the dead. They did it for selfish reasons. And their actions also tell me that they were not mature enough to deal with the death of someone close to them. They were afraid of changes in their lives. And they reacted with a great deal of immaturity.

Willow's motives were problematic, no argument there. That's why the resurrection episode is called 'Bargaining'.

I'm not defending Willow, I'm just asking about the resurrection itself - was it right or wrong? And why? Willow's motives are a seperate issue.

thetopher:

Because heaven is a good place- mythologically speaking every culture has a paradise/higher plane that you go to when you die.

Well, what is it that makes heaven good? Just because cultures treat it as good doesn't mean that it IS good. Cultures also used to say that slavery is cool, and that doesn't make it true.

and we know that Buffy WAS happy

Is happiness the only important thing in existence? What about choice? What about life? Buffy didn't have those things in "heaven".
In 'Becoming', Angelus told Buffy "Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?" And Buffy replied "Me" and continued to fight and defeat him. What is that "me"? What is that last thing that defines us? Choice. Buffy lost everything at that point (including her happiness, obviously), but she still had the ability to choose. She still had herself. And in "heaven", she lost that. In "heaven", she didn't have a choice.

Okay, so how do you know that Buffy couldn't leave? It's never said one way or the other. All we know is that Buffy didn't want to leave. YOU DON'T KNOW that it was a very nice 'prison', maybe Buffy was with Joyce.
What we are told is that she SAID she was happy and complete- that is how Buffy felt, and you're saying what? That is was still a good thing?
I mean, I don't think Willow was EVER arrogant enough to think that she thwart death just 'cause she could and that was automatically a good thing.

If Buffy is in an alternate dimension, then she OBVIOUSLY can't leave. Leaving dimension requires portals or magic, and Buffy had neither.

And Buffy didn't want to leave because she was in a place that compromised her free will:

Wherever I ... was ... I was happy.
At peace. I knew that everyone
I cared about was all right. I knew it.
Time didn't mean anything, nothing
had form... but I was still me, you
know? And I was warm and I was
loved... and I was finished.
Complete.

"I knew that everyone I cared about was all right". Except that they weren't. They were all spiralling and in pain, and in danger of death. The "heaven" was just lying to Buffy to make her happy. The way I understand it, that "heaven" was a place of pure happines - and nothing BUT pure happines. And that is problematic, IMO, because I think that existence is about more than just happiness.

LOL. That was JASMINE!!
Of course Jasmine- who was influencing/controlling Cordelia- wanted to come down to earth and give people world peace and eat them.
And again, nobody forced Cordelia to ascend, her own (stupid) choice. That was one of the most anti-Cordelia things on the show- for her to go 'I'm going to be a higher power, Yay!' *shakes head*

I actually think that it was Cordelia herself who we saw in the "heaven" in the first 3 episodes of season 4. It was Cordy who wanted to leave it, I think.

But yeah, there's nothing clever or good about Cordy's storyline from 3x22 to 4x22.

Of course it would.
Life would go on and on, populations would rise because nobody would be dying, we would eventually have to have no more births (practically speaking). Life would cease to have the same meaning because there would be no more new life.
Existence would be less.

So the problem with immortality is that there would be no more new life? No more kids? But... What's so bad about that? Are you saying that the meaning of life is to have kids? That seems kinda random to me. Plenty of people live their whole life without having kids. Is their existence less meaningful than that of people who have kids? I don't see the connection between kids and meaning.

You're not though, you're saying that death is bad and if it can be reversed then it why not? Why does death exist, it sucks, if it can be overcome why shouldn't it and damn the consequences?

Hell, lets bring EVERYONE back from the death who's ever died. Because death is bad and everyone should live forever and ever.

I mean, does that sound like a good thing? Not to me.
Even on the show immortality is shown to be a sort of stagnation of existence; vampires live forever but they don't ever really change or grow. They are incapable without outside intervention- soul or chip.

Well, my main question is why not to resurrect Buffy. The problem with death in general is an offshoot of that. I'm not even saying that Buffy should be immortal, I'm just saying that she shouldn't die at the age of 20. But the issue of immortality comes up naturally from that, and, well, see above.

And honestly, immortality seems like a not-so-bad deal on the show. Angel is an immortal, and he lives a meaningful life. Same with ensouled-Spike. The problem with vampires is not their immortality, it's their soulless-ness or their lack of purpose. Which would not be any different if they were mortal.

You said that 'death is bad' and that's what I take issue with. You said that if it can be reversed then why not do that? On the show it tells us why not- several times- through several different characters. Giles, Spike, Buffy herself, the demon they brought back/created. There are dark consequences for messing with the natural order.

The line that made me start this whole argument (which, sorry about that, if it's annoying. It's entirely OK to agree to disagree, if you want. I just enjoy the debate, and I learn from it) is when Lyri said that "resurrection is immoral". I just don't see the reason for that, and I'm curious. What am I missing?

The show paints resurrection as bad for an obvious reason - in real life, we CAN'T resurrect people, and the show doesn't want to encourage people to cling to their "bargaining" phase of grief. And that is something that I appreciate. But if we're talking about the actual philosophical question of immortality, then that's a different issue.

I think the strongest things that Buffy doe that season is 1) Not punch Willow in the face and 2) Not try and commit suicide and get back to where she had been before. Because she obviously did not want to leave.

Heh. Oh come on, who could punch that face:

Willow might have actually liked that punch, though...

Seriously though, that actually gets into another aspect of the immortality question - if death is a natural part of the cycle, and if that cycle is good, then why shouldn't we all just commit suicide?

I meant that it was was ultimately her choice, getting resurrected and traumatized and waking up inside a box to dig herself out of her grave- that wasn't her choice. That was all on Willow and the others.

Did Willow ultimately do a good thing? I don't know. I'm not really convinced that Buffy is actually happy at the start of S7. She's a bit content perhaps, but she gets fed up quickly as the season goes on .

That raises some other interesting questions - when babies are born, they don't choose it either. When Joyce gave birth to Buffy, she brought her into a painful world and a painful life. What's the essential difference between giving birth and what Willow did to Buffy in 6x01?

Also, I think that Buffy is at least truly happy in the end of 'Chosen'.


I'm sorry about this sorta-depressing converstaion... Here, have a gif or two:

 

[white avenger]

Wouldn't Banner's problem be "I can't let myself be angry in case I turn into a giant green rage monster"? Surely being happy is the way he wants to be?

I think that Banner's statement in "The Avengers" pretty much explains his feelings, "I'm angry all the time." He has to consciously suppress those feelings in order not to become the Hulk. If he loses that self control, he turns green, and things start getting broken (and I have no doubt, Natasha would make just about any man lose control)

It was wrong to bring Buffy back from the dead and I don't think Angel would have agreed to that, either. Angel, more than anyone at that point, understands what that means and what it entails.

Willow was working on the assumption (there's that word again) that Buffy's soul was trapped in some hell dimension, suffering in ways that she couldn't even imagine. I fully agree that she should have made some effort to be certain of that before trying to resurrect her (and, who knows? Maybe she actually did try, and failed, and we just never heard about it) but she honestly believed that what she was doing was the right thing to do. Ultimately, I suppose that it was, considering how the rest of the series turned out (or maybe not, since it was Willow's actions that allowed the First Evil to make its move) With the real Slayer locked away in prison, Buffy was the only person capable of guarding the Hellmouth, which seemed to be the main priority of the entire series.

The reason why I (and certain other Angel fans 🙂) don't think that Angel would help Dawn is because it is - as it's most basic level - morally wrong to try to bring Joyce back from the dead.

I'm not sure just how that argument can stand, considering how Angel did basically the same thing, himself, with Giles, a few years later, and I can't really see any difference in Giles' death and Tara's, when Osiris told Willow that she couldn't be brought back. Being killed by an enraged sociopath shouldn't be any different than being killed by a vampire who was under the influence of a sentient universe. Dying from the complications of a brain tumor isn't any more natural than being murdered. Dead is dead.