Could you see Angel helping Dawn in season 5 like Spike did?

[thetopher]

Well, Buffy made up for that in S07 by treating Willow like an object without free will. Much worse than a punch in the face, IMO.

Yeah, I have problems with Buffy in S7 and how she treats...almost everyone, but in S6 Willow annoyed me more with her arrogant presumptions (not just Willow, 'cause all four of them agreed with the plan)

Well, what is it that makes heaven good? Just because cultures treat it as good doesn't mean that it IS good. Cultures also used to say that slavery is cool

Slavery is not across all cultures though.
The idea of a perfect afterlife- somewhere great you go where you die- is indicative of all cultures, not just recent/Western ones, from Valhalla to the Dreamland to Elysian fields- all cultures have a great afterlife that people go to when they are 'complete'- that's the thing.

Is happiness the only important thing in existence? What about choice? What about life? Buffy didn't have those things in "heaven".

She didn't need it- the choice, she was complete, done, baked.
She said that when she wasn't in heaven, so heaven wasn't brainwashing her/lying to her. It's what she believed/still believes in S6.

Does Willow know better than Buffy about what Buffy wants and were she belongs? N, she does not.

In 'Becoming', Angelus told Buffy "Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?" And Buffy replied "Me" and continued to fight and defeat him. What is that "me"? What is that last thing that defines us? Choice.

Or...another interpretation: the willingness to fight, to not give up, to beat the bad guy, to tap your own inner strength to save the day. I am all that I have left.

But post S5 Buffy is done, her journey is over and she doesn't need to fight anymore, she gets to rest like the champ she is.

Except Willow thinks she knows better.

If Buffy is in an alternate dimension, then she OBVIOUSLY can't leave.

We're never told that. For all we know Buffy could flit from heavenly dimension to heavenly dimension enjoying fresh pleasure each and every day. Possible going 'wheee!' at the same time.

And Buffy didn't want to leave because she was in a place that compromised her free will:

There's no evidence of that. We know what Buffy says/how she felt about her time in heaven when she wasn't in heaven.

"I knew that everyone I cared about was all right". Except that they weren't. They were all spiralling and in pain, and in danger of death.

Pfft!, they were managing just fine as we saw in Bargaining.
If anything it was Buffy being brought back that started the whole thing rolling again, especially Willow crossing murky magical line after line which began her road down to Dark Willow.

Ah, but there were Hellions threatening the town...except that was utterly contrived by having the Buffybot being sent out ALONE on patrol to get hurt by a lame vampire, whereas previously they all were shown going out as a slaying group, and managing to get by with Willow, the Buffybot, Spike and the rest.

Also the magic resurrection spell? The one that wiped Willow out powers-wise. So if she hadn't done that and the Hellions had still turned up? She fries the leader with a BIG magical light show and the rest run off screaming.
After all, its not like Buffy killed all the Hellions, just the leaders and a group of his buddies- that was all it took.

So yeah, I think Buffy was right, she was complete and they could've gotten by without her just about. It would've been hard of course, but as it turned out it was hard anyway.
Remember that most of the pain of Season 6 was self-inflicted, and the end-of-the world was caused by Willow.

And they actually caused the First to get its evil on in a more active way by resurrecting Buffy. If you bring S7 into question then Willow's actions are even more questionable. Willow broke the rules and so the First felt free to break them right back- mayhem and apocalypse to come.

Are we seriously suggesting that Willow and co. couldn't take down the Trio?

And at the end of the day there is another slayer on hand.

I mean, from one point of view I was glad to see Buffy alive again, but she was messed up and continued to be messed up, for a long time afterwards.

I actually think that it was Cordelia herself who we saw in the "heaven" in the first 3 episodes of season 4. It was Cordy who wanted to leave it, I think.

I mean that Jasmine, through Skip, manipulated Cordelia to take the deal in the first place.
Angel was right to leave Cordelia where she was, because the whole coming back to earth was a calculated, evil plan that led to untold suffering.

Oddly, this is one of those times that Angel respected the decision somebody else had made and didn't overrule it with his own. I figured you would've approved of that. 😉

So the problem with immortality is that there would be no more new life? No more kids? But... What's so bad about that? Are you saying that the meaning of life is to have kids?

I'm not saying that people who don't want/wish to have kids have lives devoid of all meaning- of course they do because we all create our own meaning in how we live our lives (or maybe all life is inherently meaningful).
But as a species having children is a biological imperative. If that were no longer necessary and we would all merely drift on with our lives.

I think- and this is merely my own supposition- that we very well might lose our drive to try and make the world better for our children. We would stick with whatever status quo we were most 'content' with and leave it at that.

Well, my main question is why not to resurrect Buffy.

I don't particularly have a problem with what happens in S6, only that Willow and co acted without thinking.
You seem to be saying that what Willow did was inherently good because it brought Buffy back to life against her wishes. I think it was the wrong thing done for the right reason, which is more complicated and angst-y, keeping with those Buffy themes.

That raises some other interesting questions - when babies are born, they don't choose it either. When Joyce gave birth to Buffy, she brought her into a painful world and a painful life.

As in 'I never asked to be born' that teenagers come out with sometimes? I dunno, seems kinda ungrateful to resent being brought into existence doesn't it?
That's assuming that your parents try to provide the best they can for you and prepare you for the world. I know that's not always how it goes- life is infinitely more complicated than that.
But at the end of the day where there is life, existence, then there is always choice and hope for something better. So bringing in new life is always of the good in my experience.

 

[Taake]

A reminder: this thread is about whether or not you could see Angel helping Dawn like Spike did.

 

[LeeJones41]

Is it possible that the real reason some are arguing for resurrection is that they don't like the idea of Buffy being dead or the only other Slayer living in prison? With Buffy dead, there is no story. I get the feeling that wanting Buffy to be resurrected is more about having her around to continue the story than the moral ramifications of what Willow had done.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

2) Death is natural, yes. But I don't see why "natural" is the same as "good".

I think that can go both ways. It is NATURAL for a vampire to hunt and kill humans as they need the blood to survive (I think Buffy's vampires are based on lions, humans are just their gazelle) and from a human perspective that's bad but from a vampire's perspective it's good because it is what is natural to them.

I think the reason why some people argue for the idea of resurrection, especially in a fictional story, is that they might fear death on some level that they are not aware. I think it was wrong of Willow and the other Scoobies to bring Buffy back from the dead. They did it for selfish reasons. And their actions also tell me that they were not mature enough to deal with the death of someone close to them. They were afraid of changes in their lives. And they reacted with a great deal of immaturity.

They dealt with Joyce's death fine and they felt the affects of that deeply.

Life would go on and on, populations would rise because nobody would be dying, we would eventually have to have no more births (practically speaking). Life would cease to have the same meaning because there would be no more new life.



See above; I don't get the problem. Death is part of a cycle, if you get rid of death you disrupt the cycle.

Torchwood had a story dealing with this where basically nobody could die. That didn't mean you couldn't be hurt or injured or feel pain, just that you wouldn't die from your injuries. So the woman that got shoved in her car as it went through a car crusher and she was mashed up was unable to die.

Even on the show immortality is shown to be a sort of stagnation of existence; vampires live forever but they don't ever really change or grow. They are incapable without outside intervention- soul or chip.

I disagree. The chip didn't really change Spike, it just forced him to adapt. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have changed of his own accord if given the right incentive.

"I knew that everyone I cared about was all right". Except that they weren't. They were all spiralling and in pain, and in danger of death. The "heaven" was just lying to Buffy to make her happy. The way I understand it, that "heaven" was a place of pure happines - and nothing BUT pure happines. And that is problematic, IMO, because I think that existence is about more than just happiness

I disagree to an extent. "I knew that everyone I cared about was alright" was probably Buffy's last thought as she died and in that moment she was at peace. She'd saved the world, saved her sister and saved her friends. Buffy's soul/essence probably got paused on that thought if that makes sense so she was happy. I don't think there is a strict heaven/hell place but different dimensions that people apply their own ideology to so Buffy was in a place she thought was "heaven" (because that's the simplest form to describe it) but it wasn't actually biblical heaven. Likewise there is no biblical hell but "hell" dimensions eg what's under the "hellmouth" with the ubervamps, you've got the dimension in Anne where the street kids were forced to be slaves and you've got that place in Angel called Pylea or something like that where Angel's demon form fully manifests. It would explain why when Buffy was returned to Sunnydale, she asked "is this hell?" even though it wasn't the actual hell.

I'm not sure just how that argument can stand, considering how Angel did basically the same thing, himself, with Giles, a few years later, and I can't really see any difference in Giles' death and Tara's, when Osiris told Willow that she couldn't be brought back. Being killed by an enraged sociopath shouldn't be any different than being killed by a vampire who was under the influence of a sentient universe. Dying from the complications of a brain tumor isn't any more natural than being murdered. Dead is dead.

Osiris told WIllow that Tara's death was a HUMAN death by HUMAN hands which I think is where the whole natural/unnatural aspect comes in. There was nothing supernatural about it, neither was their anything supernatural about Joyce's death. They were both HUMAN deaths. How did Angel kill Giles?
 
Just to try and bring my post back to the topic: I don't think Angel would've helped Dawn because the moment she told him of her plans, he would've gone running to Buffy to tell on her.

Whilst Spike may not have been right in what he did, his logic is sound. If Dawn was going to do it anyway, she's better off with him looking out for her than she is on her own. Also, if she feels she can talk to him, he at least stands a chance of being able to steer her in the right direction away from doing something exceptionally stupid. At that moment in time Dawn wanted to feel like someone understood and listened to her instead of treating her like a little child. Don't forget in season 5, Anya was doing just that. It also seems to like it could be the reason why Dawn started crushing on Spike, as far as she was concerned he was the only one who treated her like an adult instead of a kid.

 

[thetopher]

I don't think Spike would've changed if not for the chip. Spike would've been killed by Buffy if not for the chip. The chip was a neuter/mussle that forced him to change, just like a soul gave Angel the opportunity to change.

How did Angel kill Giles?

Angel!Twilight did a Jenny Calendar on him. 🙁
And the reason why Giles was able to be resurrected was made perfectly clear- his soul had not passed on to another dimension so it was still savable (it actually belonged to Eyghon at this point, who was very much corporeal and on earth).
There was also a bit of guff about Giles having a 'magically rich' existence or something, which I didn't really get. Basically a few little parts of his essence were scattered about a bit- a spell here, an object there. Interesting though.

Unlike Tara or Joyce who had died totally normal human deaths and had passed over like anybody else. Joyce was not magically inclined and I guess Tara was too young and inexperienced magically or something.

And again, Angel did what Willow did not- he verified where Giles' soul was before attempted a resurrection spell

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I don't think Spike would've changed if not for the chip. Spike would've been killed by Buffy if not for the chip. The chip was a neuter/mussle that forced him to change, just like a soul gave Angel the opportunity to change.

Whilst you're right in that Spike probably wouldn't have changed without the chip, that doesn't mean he couldn't have changed if he'd wanted to of his own volition without the chip.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think Spike would've changed if not for the chip. Spike would've been killed by Buffy if not for the chip. The chip was a neuter/mussle that forced him to change, just like a soul gave Angel the opportunity to change.

Pretty much agree (makes me uneasy when we do that. I get the feeling that one or the other of us must be missing something) that the chip was initially responsible for Spike's changing. I think that his friendship with Joyce and Dawn helped a lot, also, as well as his feelings for Buffy. Not so sure just how certain the outcome of a Buffy vs Spike fight to the finish would have turned out. She got over confident in "School Hard," and it almost cost her her life. Angel did the same thing in "Destiny" with quite similar results. Don't sell the guy with the bleached hair too short. He just might surprise you.

(Probably not, since it's Buffy's show, but with Joss running things, who knows?)

 

[thetopher]

Whilst you're right in that Spike probably wouldn't have changed without the chip, that doesn't mean he couldn't have changed if he'd wanted to of his own volition without the chip.

I don't know, I think Spike liked who he was too much to change. He was forced to adjust because of the chip, which meant hanging around- in a none-kill-y capacity, with Buffy and friends.

The only other thing, maybe he would change for Dru if say, Dru suddenly got stuck with soul or whatnot. Hmn, that's actually an interesting thought. But very ot.

Pretty much agree (makes me uneasy when we do that. I get the feeling that one or the other of us must be missing something) that the chip was initially responsible for Spike's changing. I think that his friendship with Joyce and Dawn helped a lot, also, as well as his feelings for Buffy.

I'd agree that it helped that Spike was, to most standards, a very nice demon. Joyce and Dawn found him very personable on occasion.

Not so sure just how certain the outcome of a Buffy vs Spike fight to the finish would have turned out. She got over confident in "School Hard," and it almost cost her her life.

I just mean that, if Spike had shown up again, then Buffy wouldn't have made that mistake she made the first time. She always took Spike as a threat seriously right up until S5 'Out Of My Mind'.

 

[white avenger]

I just mean that, if Spike had shown up again, then Buffy wouldn't have made that mistake she made the first time. She always took Spike as a threat seriously right up until S5 'Out Of My Mind'.

Not saying that backing Buffy in their fight wouldn't be a fairly safe bet (barring the Joss element, of course) I just meant that the two are so closely matched that the winner is far more likely to be crawling away than walking.

 

[GoSpuffy]

I think Spike helping Dawn was true to character, just like how he went along with helping her break into the Magic Box. We never see much interaction between Dawn and Angel so its hard to guess what their relationship looks like. I don't think Angel would necessarily go running to Buffy with the info but I do think he would just counsel Dawn not to go ahead with the plan and expect her to listen to him because he is older and wiser. Then likely Dawn would do it anyway and Zombie Joyce would be born. Buffy was such a mess when her Mum died, I'm glad she didn't have to kill her the second time.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

The only other thing, maybe he would change for Dru if say, Dru suddenly got stuck with soul or whatnot. Hmn, that's actually an interesting thought. But very ot.

I find it a very interesting thought. I kind of wish they'd gone that route and given Dru the chip. At the very least, it would make Buffy feel worse in season 6 that the 2 soulless vampires have a more emotional connection than she does with her friends. Also the fact that Dru and Spike stayed together despite there being something "wrong" with Dru would also make Buffy feel that there is something seriously wrong with herself.

I'd agree that it helped that Spike was, to most standards, a very nice demon. Joyce and Dawn found him very personable on occasion.

Even pre-chip, Spike got on very well with Joyce. Spike can play nice when he wants to.

 

[Guy]

Slavery is not across all cultures though.
The idea of a perfect afterlife- somewhere great you go where you die- is indicative of all cultures, not just recent/Western ones, from Valhalla to the Dreamland to Elysian fields- all cultures have a great afterlife that people go to when they are 'complete'- that's the thing.

1) I'm no "culturoligist", but I'm gonna bet that this idea is NOT present in all cultures. There's always exceptions.
2) Even if it IS present in all cultures, so what? That doesn't make it true. Everyone (or almost everyone) used to believe that the sun revolved around the earth, but that turned out to be false.

She didn't need it- the choice, she was complete, done, baked.
She said that when she wasn't in heaven, so heaven wasn't brainwashing her/lying to her. It's what she believed/still believes in S6.

She was "complete"? "Done"? What does that mean? What does it take to be complete? I wanna be complete too. What's the secret to that?

Or is it just because Buffy thought that she was complete? Because that probably just means that she was wrong - after all, in 'Chosen', Buffy says that she's NOT done. Maybe Buffy was just WRONG when she thought she was done, and Willow saved her from her own mistake?

Does Willow know better than Buffy about what Buffy wants and were she belongs? N, she does not.

Willow does a whole lot of wrong things in season 6, and I don't want to defend her in that. I'm just talking about the basic act of resurrecting Buffy. The act of resurrection itself, not Willow's actual motivation for it.

Also, if someone is trying to commit suicide, won't you stop him? Yes, you'd be limiting his choice momentarily, but you'd be helping him. And if suicide is really that person's right choice (I'm not necessarily against euthanasia in all cases), then he can always do it later, when he's not acting out of emotion and extereme circumstances, as Buffy did in 'The Gift'.

Or...another interpretation: the willingness to fight, to not give up, to beat the bad guy, to tap your own inner strength to save the day. I am all that I have left.

But post S5 Buffy is done, her journey is over and she doesn't need to fight anymore, she gets to rest like the champ she is.

Except Willow thinks she knows better.

That's related to what I said above - I just don't see why Buffy's journey should be done at that point.

We're never told that. For all we know Buffy could flit from heavenly dimension to heavenly dimension enjoying fresh pleasure each and every day. Possible going 'wheee!' at the same time.

Faith enough. Maybe Buffy could PHYSICALLY leave. But she didn't want to, which leads me to...

There's no evidence of that. We know what Buffy says/how she felt about her time in heaven when she wasn't in heaven.

Maybe you and I are interpreting it differently, but the way I see it, that "heaven" was essentially keeping Buffy completely pleasured and detached from the rest of existence, which MAKES her want to stay. The Buffy that I know wouldn't want to stay in perfect happines as her friends are struggling to survive, and she only stayed in "heaven" because it was lying to her about their "safety".

Pfft!, they were managing just fine as we saw in Bargaining.
If anything it was Buffy being brought back that started the whole thing rolling again, especially Willow crossing murky magical line after line which began her road down to Dark Willow.

Ah, but there were Hellions threatening the town...except that was utterly contrived by having the Buffybot being sent out ALONE on patrol to get hurt by a lame vampire, whereas previously they all were shown going out as a slaying group, and managing to get by with Willow, the Buffybot, Spike and the rest.

Also the magic resurrection spell? The one that wiped Willow out powers-wise. So if she hadn't done that and the Hellions had still turned up? She fries the leader with a BIG magical light show and the rest run off screaming.
After all, its not like Buffy killed all the Hellions, just the leaders and a group of his buddies- that was all it took.

So yeah, I think Buffy was right, she was complete and they could've gotten by without her just about. It would've been hard of course, but as it turned out it was hard anyway.
Remember that most of the pain of Season 6 was self-inflicted, and the end-of-the world was caused by Willow.

And they actually caused the First to get its evil on in a more active way by resurrecting Buffy. If you bring S7 into question then Willow's actions are even more questionable. Willow broke the rules and so the First felt free to break them right back- mayhem and apocalypse to come.

Are we seriously suggesting that Willow and co. couldn't take down the Trio?

And at the end of the day there is another slayer on hand.

I mean, from one point of view I was glad to see Buffy alive again, but she was messed up and continued to be messed up, for a long time afterwards.

They were "fine"? No they weren't, they were fighting for their lives every day. Sure they could do that without Buffy, and Buffy's presence there won't prevent the struggle, but the point still stands - Buffy's friends were NOT okay, and the "heaven" was lying to her about it.

I mean that Jasmine, through Skip, manipulated Cordelia to take the deal in the first place.
Angel was right to leave Cordelia where she was, because the whole coming back to earth was a calculated, evil plan that led to untold suffering.

Oddly, this is one of those times that Angel respected the decision somebody else had made and didn't overrule it with his own. I figured you would've approved of that. 😉

Well, I don't know, maybe if Angel was the one who brought Cordelia back (instead of her being sent by Jasmine at the end of 4x03), she wouldn't have come with Jasmine infecting her? I don't know, I'm just speculating. Honestly, that season is pretty weak as a tool for meaningful debate, because it's so ambguously written and flawed, IMO...

I'm not saying that people who don't want/wish to have kids have lives devoid of all meaning- of course they do because we all create our own meaning in how we live our lives (or maybe all life is inherently meaningful).
But as a species having children is a biological imperative. If that were no longer necessary and we would all merely drift on with our lives.

I think- and this is merely my own supposition- that we very well might lose our drive to try and make the world better for our children. We would stick with whatever status quo we were most 'content' with and leave it at that.

That's an interesting idea, but, if meaning is something that we all create, then I think it's entirely possible to create meaning in a childless world, too. Maybe childless-ness would diminish our natural urge to do so, but it would still be entirely possible for everyone.

I don't particularly have a problem with what happens in S6, only that Willow and co acted without thinking.
You seem to be saying that what Willow did was inherently good because it brought Buffy back to life against her wishes. I think it was the wrong thing done for the right reason, which is more complicated and angst-y, keeping with those Buffy themes.

Heh, then we're kinda opposite - I think that Willow's motivations were at least PARTIALLY wrong (she wanted to help Buffy, sure, but she was also attracted to the idea of attempting such a powerful magical ritual, IMO. Also, her desire to bring Buffy back was at least partially selfish - Buffy's love for Willow was a great source of affirmation for Willow since season 1, and at least a PART of Willow wanted that affirmation back, and that played a part in her decision to resurrect Buffy, IMO), but her action was right, overall. Part of it is because of the reason that Xander vocalized in 6x08:

I feel weird feeling bad that my friend's not dead. It's too mind-boggling. So I've decided to simplify the whole thing: Me like Buffy. Buffy alive. So, me glad.

But I also think that the resurrection was just a morally correct action, for all of the reasons I mentioned here.

As in 'I never asked to be born' that teenagers come out with sometimes? I dunno, seems kinda ungrateful to resent being brought into existence doesn't it?
That's assuming that your parents try to provide the best they can for you and prepare you for the world. I know that's not always how it goes- life is infinitely more complicated than that.
But at the end of the day where there is life, existence, then there is always choice and hope for something better. So bringing in new life is always of the good in my experience.

Which is how I see Buffy's resurrection, too - she went through some pain, yes, but as you said, "at the end of the day where there is life, existence, then there is always choice and hope for something better. So bringing in new life is always of the good in my experience."

DeadlyDuo:

I think that can go both ways. It is NATURAL for a vampire to hunt and kill humans as they need the blood to survive (I think Buffy's vampires are based on lions, humans are just their gazelle) and from a human perspective that's bad but from a vampire's perspective it's good because it is what is natural to them.

As I said, I don't see why nature is inherently good. If a vampire kills humans, it is still bad, even if it's because of his nature. Which is why Buffy kills vampires. She doesn't do it because of her nature (and when her natural instincts start to influence her too much in season 5, she's freaked out by it), she does it because she thinks it's right.

I disagree to an extent. "I knew that everyone I cared about was alright" was probably Buffy's last thought as she died and in that moment she was at peace. She'd saved the world, saved her sister and saved her friends. Buffy's soul/essence probably got paused on that thought if that makes sense so she was happy. I don't think there is a strict heaven/hell place but different dimensions that people apply their own ideology to so Buffy was in a place she thought was "heaven" (because that's the simplest form to describe it) but it wasn't actually biblical heaven. Likewise there is no biblical hell but "hell" dimensions eg what's under the "hellmouth" with the ubervamps, you've got the dimension in Anne where the street kids were forced to be slaves and you've got that place in Angel called Pylea or something like that where Angel's demon form fully manifests

I see the dimension thing in exactly the same way - it isn't ACTUAL heaven (if that even exists), it's just an alternate dimension that happened to FEEL like heaven to Buffy. And I think that it was the right decision to take Buffy out of it (even if the motivations for that decision were imperfect).

Taake:

A reminder: this thread is about whether or not you could see Angel helping Dawn like Spike did.

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm a hopeless digresser... Maybe we should bring this debate to a new thread?

 

[thetopher]

1) I'm no "culturoligist", but I'm gonna bet that this idea is NOT present in all cultures.

Not all (some south American cultures- for example- did not have a concept of a lovely, benevolent afterlife) but most did.

2) Even if it IS present in all cultures, so what? That doesn't make it true. Everyone (or almost everyone) used to believe that the sun revolved around the earth, but that turned out to be false.

I never said it was true, only that if Willow had realized where Buffy was, then it should've affected her thinking, that's all.

She was "complete"? "Done"? What does that mean? What does it take to be complete? I wanna be complete too. What's the secret to that?

It's simple, Buffy- when she was on Earth and alive again- said that is how she felt. No 'heaven' messing with her mind (if it even was doing that), it is Buffy. not suicidal Buffy or brainwashed Buffy but traumatized Buffy.

Willow does a whole lot of wrong things in season 6, and I don't want to defend her in that. I'm just talking about the basic act of resurrecting Buffy. The act of resurrection itself, not Willow's actual motivation for it.

I think the show pretty much says that Willow crossed a line/did a bad thing by resurrecting Buffy- dark magic is not a friend (there's always consequences) and it cost Willow and everyone else involved throughout the season.
Also triggered the Season 7 apocalypse so, yeah, bad.

Also, if someone is trying to commit suicide, won't you stop him?

Sure I would, but I wouldn't stop somebody sacrificing themselves for the greater good- saving the day, which is what Buffy was doing.

That's related to what I said above - I just don't see why Buffy's journey should be done at that point.

Because that's what she wanted, her wishes are what matter, not Willow's.

They were "fine"? No they weren't, they were fighting for their lives every day.

Actually they were really no worse than when Buffy was alive, they were 'fine' in the same terms they always had been. They had an equilibrium; Dawn was starting school, looked after, loved and protected, the Hellmouth had 'enough' guardians, no massive threats looming.

So, 'big picture' everyone was fine, at least as fine as they always had been. It was the specific act of bringing Buffy back that made things worse, both in S6 and 7.

Well, I don't know, maybe if Angel was the one who brought Cordelia back (instead of her being sent by Jasmine at the end of 4x03), she wouldn't have come with Jasmine infecting her? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

Heh, well okay, that could have happened, but I still respect that Angel didn't 'take it upon himself' to put his wishes/wants above Cordy's. She didn't commit suicide after all, she just volunteered to ascend.

I think that Willow's motivations were at least PARTIALLY wrong

Yeah, I'd agree with that; it was partly 'I can do this' arrogance on her part; not wanting to be without her friend that gave her much affirmation. But, 'close friend suffering in hell' is probably the biggest factor here.
I'm not gonna say that Willow wanted Buffy back simply because 'Buffy makes Willow happy', she did what she did out of pain, and wanting to fix that pain with magic- same old Willow.

Which is how I see Buffy's resurrection, too - she went through some pain, yes, but as you said, "at the end of the day where there is life, existence, then there is always choice and hope for something better. So bringing in new life is always of the good in my experience."

Babies can't give consent and birth is a natural process so its not exactly the same as bringing Buffy back from the dead.
However, I'm of course glad that, ultimately, Buffy got more life to live.

 

[Taake]

Yes,If you're going to continue this, bring it to a new thread.

So, second reminder that this thread is about whether or not you could see Angel helping Dawn like Spike did in season 5.

 

[Mr Trick]

I doubt Angel would do it. He's very much for the mission and bringing back someone who has naturally died wouldn't be part of that as far as he is concerned. I don't see Angel as having that sort of connection with Dawn that Spike does either.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I doubt Angel would do it. He's very much for the mission and bringing back someone who has naturally died wouldn't be part of that as far as he is concerned. I don't see Angel as having that sort of connection with Dawn that Spike does either.

Angel isn't just about the mission (which is redemption I presume?). He's kind and compassionate, and he's mission is to help people. He would help Dawn because she needs help, because she's just a girl who lost her mother and because he knows her. Also, she's Buffy's sister. He doesn't need one of Cordy's visions to help someone - we see him save a woman in the first episode of season 5 when Cordy's in a coma.
He would offer Dawn emotional support, but he wouldn't help her resurrect her mother. He would also make sure that Dawn doesn't try to do so. Angel has been around long enough to know you shouldn't mess with dark magic.

 

[Mr Trick]

Angel isn't just about the mission (which is redemption I presume?). He's kind and compassionate, and he's mission is to help people. He would help Dawn because she needs help, because she's just a girl who lost her mother and because he knows her. Also, she's Buffy's sister. He doesn't need one of Cordy's visions to help someone - we see him save a woman in the first episode of season 5 when Cordy's in a coma.
He would offer Dawn emotional support, but he wouldn't help her resurrect her mother. He would also make sure that Dawn doesn't try to do so. Angel has been around long enough to know you shouldn't mess with dark magic.

But we were talking about him saving Dawn's life rather whether he would have helped her to try and bring Joyce back to life like Spike did. I don't think he would myself.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

But we were talking about him saving Dawn's life rather whether he would have helped her to try and bring Joyce back to life like Spike did. I don't think he would myself.

You said Angel wouldn't bring Joyce back because that's not part of the mission, and while bringing someone back to life is not necessarily part of his mission, helping people is. On the one hand, Angel's mission is to help whichever way he can and to save people's souls, so if resurrecting someone wasn't morally wrong (among other things), he would go along with the plan, even if Dawn's life wasn't in danger (I assume that's what you meant by the mission - saving people's lives to achieve redemption). On the other hand, Angel isn't all about the mission, not at all. Dawn tries to bring Joyce back to life in season 5, during Angel's season 2. That's the season where Angel has the epiphany "if nothing we do matters, than all that is what we do". He realizes he can't spend his life working towards something as flimsy as redemption - he won't get it and will be driven insane in the process - instead he should do his best to help because he wants to. Angel doesn't help people because it's a mission, just like Buffy doesn't slay just because she's the slayer. They both want to help humanity. Angel would help Dawn, like I said, because she needs help and not because she's fits in his mission. Likewise, he wouldn't help Dawn resurrect her mother, not because it's outside of the mission, but because it's wrong and dangerous.
Also, Angel's lack of connection with Dawn is irrelevant, he wouldn't help Buffy resurrect her mother either.

 

[Mr Trick]

Well also I think Angel would take the same view as Buffy and the others did that people should not be brought back from the dead. Or at least not when their death is of a natural carse.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

People who died of natural causes CAN'T be brought back. Willow wanted to bring back Tara but couldn't. What Dawn temporarily brought back wasn't Joyce but Joyce's reanimated corpse. At least that's my theory.