LadyLavinia
Scooby
Why didn't Angel turn Wesley over to the police, after he had shot a W&H employee in the kneecap, murder Knox and stab Gunn?
Crimes and Punishment
- Thread starter LadyLavinia
- Start date
Xander
You Can Call Me Ash
Would of done more harm then good really, they needed Wes. If we go into this subject we'll just end up saying stuff like "How come Fred never called the police when Gunn killed the professor" etc.
BillieHunter
~**Hillbilly Hunter**~
I agree with AshSan...they needed him. By turning him in it would have hurt Angel's plans in the end. I don't think Angel condoles what Wes did, but he couldn't turn him in either.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
AshSan said:
So, Angel abetted a murderer because he "needed" him? In the end, Wes didn't prove to be worth dust in the wind. And you have a point about Gunn. He should have been turned over to the police, over Siedel's murder. If Siedel's body hadn't disappeared into the Pylea portal. But did Knox's body magically disappeared? What about Gunn's stab wound? And why wasn't he turned over to the authorities for helping a package get past Customs illegally?
Why should people like Wes and Gunn escape the authorities for their crimes - crimes that were not committed by supernatural means? Because they work with Angel? Who is Angel, to allow them that kind of freedom?
Xander
You Can Call Me Ash
Well Wes would of gotten away with it because its W&H who even before Angel took over them could get criminals out of anything. The whole punishment thing is a theme for the show, no Gunn didn't get thrown in jail but he had the self punishment, which is a lot more interesting then Gunn behind bars.
He did need Wes, he singlehandled bought Illyria down from a threat to an ally. Okay so maybe she wouldn't be so dangerous after she found out about her army being defeated but then she would of drifted off. I know you dont like Illyria but she was helpful, she killed several members of TCOTBT. If it wasn't for Wes she would of wondered into the moonlight and then we'd have even less members of the fang gang to fight the good fight.
"The funny thing about black and white, you mix them together and you get grey, no matter how much white you put in you always have grey" sums it up really. You can't be purely good and perfect in a corrupted world and you must live with this merky world.
He did need Wes, he singlehandled bought Illyria down from a threat to an ally. Okay so maybe she wouldn't be so dangerous after she found out about her army being defeated but then she would of drifted off. I know you dont like Illyria but she was helpful, she killed several members of TCOTBT. If it wasn't for Wes she would of wondered into the moonlight and then we'd have even less members of the fang gang to fight the good fight.
"The funny thing about black and white, you mix them together and you get grey, no matter how much white you put in you always have grey" sums it up really. You can't be purely good and perfect in a corrupted world and you must live with this merky world.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
AshSan said:
You talk about Gunn's self-punishment, but what about Wes? What was his punishment?
I still believe that Angel should have turned both in to the police. The crimes that both had committed was not due to supernatural means. And in the end, by sheltering both, Angel only proved what a hypocrite he really was about reform, redemption, etc. And it's interesting that he would lecture Gunn about the latter's actions and not Wes. Why is that?
"Fight the good fight"? What the hell is that? Is that supposed to be the theme of Season 5? That is supposed to be the reason why Angel kept them around? For the good fight? What is it about television shows that they allow murderers to go unpunished because he or she is a main character or is supposed to be a good guy? Also, I could have sworn that "fight the good fight" was supposed to be the theme of Season 2 - at least for Angel. Was ME repeating itself?
Athena23202
Worms in my baguette
Wow. I never thought I'd meet some one who actually -wanted- Wes and Gunn to go to jail 🙂 I do agree with AshSan as well. Wesley was needed to help avert the apocalypse and, looking at it through a Faith mindset...in the great scales, he saved a lot more people than he hurt. Not that I am condoning his actions. He (and Gunn) acted wrongly and overly emotionally. But of course in end...it is just a television show. Things aren't always portrayed as they would be in the real world. Most people like seeing other people getting hurt or doing things they would be too scared to do. Why do you think 'Fear Factor' and 'Johnny the Homicidal Maniac' are so popular? In the end it's just entertainment. And the violence was used as a tool for expression of emotion that otherwise would have been in lots of really boring speeches.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
Athena23202 said:
Sorry, I don't agree. Sounds more like an excuse to allow a popular character get away with murder and assault.
Xander
You Can Call Me Ash
LadyLavinia said:
Having to live in a world where everything he wanted was corrupted or dead and then eventually dying, that was his punishment.
"Oh mr police, my friends have killed one person each, let them sit in jail, shrinking my team while I go repent for killing thousands". He could of lectured Wes all the do-da-day but frankly there wasn't the time. He told Wes that they didn't have time to go on personal redemptions (stabbing Gunn) as the apocalypse was coming.
Also I think if Wes had turned himself in Gunn wouldn't of testified, Gunn felt he deserved to be stabbed.
The season's theme was "Can you still do good while working in the belly of the beast?" Joss said himself. "Fight the good fight" is the theme of the Buffyverse.
Television shows are fictional, yes it would be nice to send out the moral message you will be punished for what you do but can I ask you, is every criminal punshied? No and they are generally eviler, at least Wes and Gunn did good.
There are no "good guys and bad guys", thats a theme of Angel. The main protaganist (sp?) has a 200 year history of murder behind him, its about redemption, lost souls trying to make amends. We can never atone for what we have done nor can we constantly punish ourselves for it. Lilahs quote that I said above is the main idea, there is no good or bad, just people doing what they do. We cannot split the moral world down in two because nobody is wholly good or wholly evil, well not outside of Disney films.
BillieHunter
~**Hillbilly Hunter**~
LadyLavinia...it's a televison show,...and yes...and I agree with you that in real life they would deserve to go to jail...but on TV they aren't gonna send to main characters to jail...unless the writer's want to send them to jail...
ProphecyGirl
Scooby
Because Alexis Denisof wasn't asking for a salary increase. *rimshot*
As others have said there's many instances where if these characters were bound by law they'd be in jail, but since they're fighting apocalypses every season or so...We can cut them some slack they all get diplomatic/hero immunity.
As others have said there's many instances where if these characters were bound by law they'd be in jail, but since they're fighting apocalypses every season or so...We can cut them some slack they all get diplomatic/hero immunity.
E
eset
Guest
I think it also shows how they all start to become a little more like the original W&H firma s the season goes on--they wouldn't have done some of the things thay did while they were stil at the Hyperion, but once they had the resources to do things and get away with them (the evil W&H got away with them all the time), the power kinda went to their heads and they figured if there was no down side, why not?
LadyLavinia
Scooby
eset said:
Actually, this seems more logical to me. By allowing Wes to walk free after the murder of Knox and Charles' stabbing, Angel saw nothing wrong in not turning him in to the police. Corruption from Wolfram & Hart, indeed.
BillieHunter
~**Hillbilly Hunter**~
Very true...and I think eset made a good point there. As much as they tried not to become corrupted...this kinda proves that they have become corrupted by W & H...as much as they fought that idea...you can't go into a place like that and stay the person you always were...it's bound to get to you somehow...
LadyLavinia said:
I feel the need to point out that he didn't help the package get through customs illegally, he authorized it, making it legal.
And I wholeheartedly agree that Wesley was the sole factor in bringing Illyria over to the Fang Gang's side, thus eliminating her as a threat to the world.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
Jenny said:
And this is supposed to justify Wes getting away with murder and assault? Because he brought Illyria into the Fang Gang?
E
eset
Guest
Rationalizations seemed to take over in both Buffy and Angel near the end. Whatever happened to "Faith is bad, must go to jail no matter how bad she feels or what she can accomplish outside"? I miss that.
BillieHunter
~**Hillbilly Hunter**~
Yea eset. I miss that too. Faith did something wrong, she went to jail. What happened to wrongdoing and the consequences for it?
Xander
You Can Call Me Ash
eset said:
She may have returned to prison, but I'd hope not. She was what 17ish when she went in, 25 to life, dont want to see her in there until shes 42. I know its the right thing to do but damnit I like Faith!
Anyway rant over.
LadyLavinia said:
Its not justification but rather a plus for Wes not being sent to jail. Illyria probably would of gone on a rampage if it was not for Wes acting like a Watcher to her.
LadyLavinia said:
No not at all. We already know that there have been many leniancies made for the 'Verse heroes.
We have to look at the good Wes did by averting the wrath Illyria could have unleashed on thousands of innocent people. I suppose we are just supposed to let it slide that he wasn't turned over to the police....but instead was part of a bigger, better thing.