Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the consequences of the "will be done" spell unintentional? She meant to cast a spell to get rid of her pain which, while unhealthy, isn't necessarily harming anyone else. It was definitely stupid that she couldn't see how it could backfire, but I don't necessarily think she did it thinking she was a god. However, I absolutely do agree that she didn't do enough to make up for this. She took away the agency of others, albeit unintentionally, and that should have been addressed further than a comedic scene of her apologizing and making cookies.
1) Yes... intent matters... but so does outcome. if she had killed everyone on the planet, her intent would have been irrelevant. That is the harshest penalty, but it does illustrate that consequences really do matter.
2) I think this was more a case of 'intent disregard'. The reason? The spell is 'my will be done'. This seems like it would be a red flag for someone even marginally responsible and with even a modicum of caution.
No, her misery is NOT sufficient excuse.
I can't go to the judge and say: "I'm sorry your honour, I was miserable because my boyfriend left so I drove drunk. Here are my penitent cookies so you'll maybe like me and give me a lesser sentence."
See this is a reason why I made this post, and also why I said that I think that what she did at the beginning of season 6 was worse than the end. She isn't irredeemable in my opinion, but she wasn't redeemed by the narrative at all. While she was punished for the mind-wiping by Tara leaving her and by Buffy distrusting her for a few episodes, Tara came back to her and Buffy stayed friends with her without meaningfully addressing the problem. Her moments of penitence were few and far between, and after season 6 it seems like the audience was just expected to forgive her for everything from the previous seasons. There were only a few episodes addressing any of this, which is a shame.
I don't know that I disagree about which was worse... I think her behaviour -- all of it was illustrative of her character and her attitude. I think raising the dead is a pretty awful place to start. Mind raping your friends is easy after you have decided you get to play god and don't learn anything from the fact that your friend woke up in her COFFIN -- something that would traumatize most people for life, even if they had not been in HEAVEN.
She reminds me of people I've met... smart people who believe their intelligence and/or education gives them the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to make decisions for other people, including eliminating any possibility of choice. I've seen spouses and family like that, and I've seen people in power like that. It NEVER ends well, no matter how much 'better' (smarter, more knowledgeable, more caring even) the person is or how much authority they think they have or should have. People have the right to make their own choices unless those choices damage others. That includes the Willows of this world.
I think the reason some of us react so viscerally to her, is that she's a type. She really was created out of real people behaviour (horrible and destructive behaviour) EVEN if it is entirely UNINTENTIONAL or (maybe worse) well intentioned.
I didn't quote this part, but you also brought up Spike's redemption, which is a really good point. Though not exactly the same, Spike's crimes were along a similar vein--- participating in apocalyptic plots, consent violations, murder... But the narrative spend all of season 7 trying to redeem him. There's many scenes illustrating his penitence. Disregarding the comics, he doesn't "get Buffy back" after what he did and only slowly earns her trust again. Why couldn't the writers have done the same with Willow?
I honestly think it was something they did right (and they did a lot wrong in the last season in particular) The fact is that her behaviour was consistent. Consistent and wrong. She was judgmental when she had no moral leg to stand on... and she was wilful in extreme from the very first season to the very last.
She did good things. She was talented. She was nice to people she liked or wanted to have like her. But. I do not think she was ever the nice person she wanted to be seen as. The fact that Allyson Hannigan made her look 'cute' and fun makes it harder to see... but if we take the pretty, smiley face off, she's really not a very nice person. Even after she cheated on Oz, when she was trying to get him back, she tried to manipulate/charm him into taking her back... Fortunately the writers did a really good job of having him see through her. He took her back... but I am not sure he should have. Maybe if he hadn't been a boy with a demon inside that he was afraid would get in the way of having another relationship, he might not have taken her back. Interestingly, as soon as a were came on the scene he was tempted... Not good, but, given the character Oz had seemed to be up til then, I have to think his connection with Willow was fraying or maybe it would not have been so easy to be tempted.
And I know this isn't the topic of this thread, but especially with the relationship aspect. She almost cursed Oz, she casted spells on Tara, and yet season 7 thought it was a great idea to put her in another relationship instead of addressing the issues that plagued her last two relationships. Which were highly related to her fatal flaw of selfishness.
She never addressed any of her issues. She went from relationship to relationship, oblivious. Still, I don't think she deserved the emotional violation that was Kennedy. I view Kennedy as a predator. If a MAN had done what Kennedy did... pushed his way into the room of the still grieving woman and basically invited himself into her bed, no one would have found it cute. It would have been seen for what it was manipulative, bossy and exploitative. As much as I don't like Willow much at this point, I don't think adding acid to gasoline was the way to go.
Also, as a member of the rainbow tribe, I
really hate the statements the last two seasons make about LGBTQ+ people.
1) lesbians aren't nice people. they do horrid things to their friends and they are unrepentant and arrogant.
2) kill your gays. The old hollowwood trope that the only good gay person is a dead person? yeah, NO. NO. NO.
3) punish bad behaviour by killing a gay person to punish the 'bad' gay person.
4) It is OK for lesbians to exploit other lesbians. They can get away with things that straight people would not... oh and lesbians aren't nice people.
So... no, I am not happy with season 6 and 7 and it's treatment of LGBTQ+ issues. Season 4 and 5 showed normative lesbian relationship and it was also mostly not 'performative'. At the time, so many shows were putting on 'lesbian kisses' (more chick kisses, if you ask me) for SWEEPS. Willow and Tara were just two girls who discovered and loved each other. And honestly, that was the period where Willow was her best person. And Tara grew. This was normal lesbian people being PEOPLE who just happened to be lesbian.
Very true. And while not a good person, I think her increasing obsession with power makes her such an interesting and complicated character. She had selfish tendencies and a feeling of superiority over others from the beginning of the show. I always felt like some of her comments about Cordelia seemed more related to feeling superior over her because she's "shallow" over distaste because she was a bully, especially in season 2. And it's interesting how that perceived moral and intellectual superiority combined with her insecurities to make her so susceptible to becoming addicted to power. Of course, not an excuse, but an explanation and a combination of toxic traits that are possible to grow from if she tried. I guess it could be argued that she tried to change in the middle of season 6 after she hurt Dawn, but I suppose that was more about the magic itself than, again, addressing the underlying issues that caused her addiction in the first place.
She is a fascinating character. She definitely thought she was better than Cordelia and Harmony. (you don't play computer pranks to destroy your classmates work if you have any respect for them, even if they're not nice). She showed me that she too was not nice... at least Cordelia knew on some level she was being shallow.
I do disagree with you that Willow "embraced Warren's warped world view" and that is why she turned into him. I think it's more that Willow recognized some of Warren's despicable traits in her past actions (i.e. manipulating people's agency) and felt guilty about it in a rare moment of self-reflection.
Not sure i worded it well... i think she couldn't have 'worn' the Warren suit without on some level believing she and he had stuff in common... yes, I give you that it might have been more shame than any kind of celebration of his world view. Nice insight!
Though the show did frame it more about Tara's death, which while of course important, is something that is obviously not directly her fault and can cause the audience to sympathize with her "survivor's guilt" instead of addressing her actual problems. I did make a post about that too, but that episode was a missed opportunity to work toward Willow's redemption in my opinion.
Yes, I think there was much that was missed in terms of Willow learning anything. Even when she agreed to go to England, you get that she was more scared of her own magic and afraid of being rejected than truly sorry.
It's so hard to blame this on Giles as a character, because his writing was so bad in the last two seasons, but he really should have done more. While I don't think that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles's fault, it seems inconceivable that he left town when Willow was so clearly going down a dark path. You make a great point about the coven; if Giles 1) had bad experiences with magic and 2) knew people who could help, why would he just leave Willow to spiral? Clearly in the show's canon there are good witches and healthy ways to learn magic, but no one significantly tried to intervene other than Tara, and it even took a couple of seasons for her to speak up about it.
Frankly, if my slayer had dug out of her grave, that ALONE would have been a reason to be there for her. If he had to be gone, somehow the writers should have shown them on the phone... or helping her... but the season ended up being a melt down... not entirely because Giles left, but it was NOT handled.
Yes, Giles should have tried to help her. Frankly, however, I think his missed opportunity was in season 4. He should have had a coven witch come to see Willow and threaten to bind or burn out her magic core permanently if she did not accede to coming under their authority and supervision... but it was treated like a joke... (bad writing, IMO) By the time she had raised a person from the dead... I think it was too late...
NOTE: while the writing was #$%, I think we can only go by what IS canon, so I treat all of those bad writing choices as part of the real series. Wish it had not been so... but we got what we got.
Wish ASH had maybe brought his family to the US, but why should he? Disrupting children's lives has lasting effects. I suspect he thought Buffy would be over at the end of season 5 and his kids were growing up without hi and his wife was alone for 5 years (something many women would not stand for)
And maybe I'm misunderstanding what happened there, but why did he think that casting a spell to make Willow experience all the pain of people in the world would make her calm down or become more reasonable?
Not sure that one was well thought out. Definitely was NOT well written (or well explained)
Would Willow have gone off the rails into world ending had she not got that extra magic boost? We don't know.
***
I am wondering, what are either of your opinions of the level of control Willow had when she was corrupted by the magic? Do you think that the corruption or the height of emotions triggered by the dark magic she took in make her any less responsible for what she was doing?
No. Many of us have wanted to do bad things. Most of us choose not to. Because, no matter how painful the motivators, we realize that the aftermath includes consequences and there are lines that one should not cross. Murder is one of those lines. Revenge fantasy is one thing. Revenge is a different thing. A thing that often involves handcuffs and felony charges, possibly dead or injured people.
The end of the line for addicts is "jails, institutions and death"... So, be addicted. Don't use. Don't kill people. Or die.
A drunk is responsible for the things he/she does while drunk. They DO have diminished capacity to understand right and wrong and diminished self control... And diminished everything... can't drive safely or do anything that requires coordination...
BUT... A drunk *chooses* to drink. It's the SOBER drunk that chooses to pick up that first drink, not the drunk... so he/she knows on some level she/he's picking up lit dynamite and starting to juggle it. This is insanity. Even if we buy the idea of magic addiction - we're not responsible for our addiction, but we are accountable for our actions.
To quote Spike:
There's always consequences. Smart, decent, responsible people accept this. They take it into consideration if they have any moral agency.
Blue
Thanks
@NotASlayer for helping me make my point. Even though I don't entirely agree that they knew what they were getting into, particularly Spike... the result was mayhem.
Remember, both Liam and William chose to become monsters - when they had a soul. Both were privileged individuals who, when given the chance to become a monster, said "Yes."
Yes, and look at the horrible consequences of their choices. I'm not clear that they knew fully the consequences as Darla did, but it is indisputable that their actions had a huge toll in broken lives and dead bodies, probably by the hundreds or even thousands.
