Dark Willow: When did she become Dark?

[Buffanator]

First off, let me say that Dark Willow was awesome! - I loved watching AlysonH play such a juicy vicious role! :evilgrin1

That said, I think the actual "moment" that Willow turned dark was when she juiced up on the magicks at the Magic Shop. The black hair, all veiny look... the darkness actually INVADED her at that point. And the more it went on... killing Warren, draining Rack, threatening Dawn, fighting with Buffy, the darkness just kept getting darker. Evil was destroying what was good inside her. Which is exactly what Buffy & Scoobys were afraid of... Willow would lose herself to the evil. ::evil:: Her thirst for revenge outweighed her grief...until Xander "saved" her.

And that's what made it such a wonderful storyline. It is truly my favorite villian arc. :bluewink:

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I definitely feel Willow's need for control was the source. I know I've said this a million times but I still liken her to Warren in some ways. Both are insecure people who use their intellect (whether it's in technology or magic) to control the world around them. As it's been said, people often get bogged down on her addiction magic rather than her almost pathological need for control.

After Tara died, Willow needed to control events more than ever. It was the climax but not the main source of where this 'darkness' came from. I'm not going to go through the chronology because it's already been looked at but I agree that it happened in degrees and was multifaceted.

This is exactly what I think. Willow was never evil, she was completely obsessed with control. More and more throughout Seasons 5 and 6 she tries to control things (giving Dawn the tools to revive Joyce, actually reviving Buffy, Tabula Rasa, the list goes on), and when Giles, the man she looks up to the most, calls her a "rank, arrogant amateur" that side of her flare up. I think Osiris' refusal was a similar blow that struck those same insecurites and spurred her on. Notice though, that vengance isn't the first thing on her mind; first she looks for the power to control the situation, then she goes and saves Buffy. Only after that does she strive to be in control of Warren and the other Trioees.

It's important how she kills Warren also. She ties him up and tortures him. Sadistic? Evil? Perhaps, but it reeks of the need for control. Her entire fight with Buffy and Giles - control. She lets Andrew and Jonathon escape, because she knows she is in control. She strives to control Giles, the man who challenged her theory that no one could stop her. When she herself is forced down, and subsequently magically sealed, she uses mind control on Anya to free herself.

There are yet more examples: Entombing Andrew and Jonathon/Buffy and Dawn. Giving Buffy something to fight as she dies. Taking it upon herself to end it all. It's only when Xander takes control and she accepts that she can't control everything that she stops. Season Seven Willow - all about self-control and accepting the higher power of nature.

So, overall, I don't think she was ever evil. She certainly lost herself to addiction, power, and lust for control, but despite her protests that "Willow doesn't live here anymore", it's clear that she was still in there. Evil in the Buffyverse seems to be fundimentally about choosing evil itself. Take for instance Faith and her choices, Spike and his soul (note, Willow did still have a soul, but that would be another exceedingly long post...), even Wolfram and Hart. Willow didn't choose evil. She chose control.

 

[Buffanator]

Notice though, that vengance isn't the first thing on her mind; first she looks for the power to control the situation, then she goes and saves Buffy. Only after that does she strive to be in control of Warren and the other Trioees.

I disagree with some of your assessment. When the ambulence arrives to get Buffy, Willow comes out of the house, Xander speaks to her briefly, & that's when she finds out it was Warren who did the deed. Her exact word was "Warren." She said his name with a hateful vengeneful voice. I think vengeance WAS the first thing on her mind. But she saved Buffy because she wasn't "truly evil" just yet. She wanted to save her friend. And possibly-MAYBE-even enlist her help to bring Warren & The Trio down.

It's important how she kills Warren also. She ties him up and tortures him. Sadistic? Evil? Perhaps, but it reeks of the need for control.

Yes - sadistic. Someone bent on revenge would most likely "just kill them" ... no time for talk, no cute quips, no getting to the "why" - just death. But the fact that she tortured him... she wanted him to SUFFER. That's evil incarnate. :evillol: She wanted him to FEEL the pain that she felt, that Tara felt. Revenge in & of itself is an evil entity. (IMHO)

Season Seven Willow - all about self-control and accepting the higher power of nature.

I agree to a point. I do think a great deal of S-7 Willow was also very FEARFUL of self Willow. She knew her power, and even said "I can hardly do a simple locater spell without getting dark roots."

So, overall, I don't think she was ever evil. She certainly lost herself to addiction, power, and lust for control, but despite her protests that "Willow doesn't live here anymore", it's clear that she was still in there.

Gotta disagree again. Willow had left the building. DarkWillow had taken completely over.

Evil in the Buffyverse seems to be fundimentally about choosing evil itself. Take for instance Faith and her choices, Spike and his soul (note, Willow did still have a soul, but that would be another exceedingly long post...), even Wolfram and Hart. Willow didn't choose evil. She chose control

Evil is exactly what Willow chose. She CHOSE to take the "bad road". She didn't want Warren or Jonathon/Andrew to go to jail... she wanted them dead. Dead, dead, dead. That's evil for ya. All about the bloody vengeful death. And I love it. :evilgrin1

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I disagree with some of your assessment. When the ambulence arrives to get Buffy, Willow comes out of the house, Xander speaks to her briefly, & that's when she finds out it was Warren who did the deed. Her exact word was "Warren." She said his name with a hateful vengeneful voice. I think vengeance WAS the first thing on her mind. But she saved Buffy because she wasn't "truly evil" just yet. She wanted to save her friend. And possibly-MAYBE-even enlist her help to bring Warren & The Trio down.



Yes - sadistic. Someone bent on revenge would most likely "just kill them" ... no time for talk, no cute quips, no getting to the "why" - just death. But the fact that she tortured him... she wanted him to SUFFER. That's evil incarnate. :evillol: She wanted him to FEEL the pain that she felt, that Tara felt. Revenge in & of itself is an evil entity. (IMHO)

I agree to a point. I do think a great deal of S-7 Willow was also very FEARFUL of self Willow. She knew her power, and even said "I can hardly do a simple locater spell without getting dark roots."

Gotta disagree again. Willow had left the building. DarkWillow had taken completely over.

Evil is exactly what Willow chose. She CHOSE to take the "bad road". She didn't want Warren or Jonathon/Andrew to go to jail... she wanted them dead. Dead, dead, dead. That's evil for ya. All about the bloody vengeful death. And I love it. :evilgrin1

See, I don't think vengance in itself is necessarily evil. I understand completely that she did terrible things out of vengence, and I realise I didn't make that clear in my post. Willow didn't choose "evil", she chose vengance and control. My reasoning for this is that apart from extracting vengance on the Trio, Dark Willow only ever went after control. She never did anything evil for the sake of it being evil, and she never attacked targets exept to assert her dominance. Rack, Buffy and Giles were always above her, and she specifically targeted them to show she was in control. She didn't even consider Xander as relevant at the end because she knew she could easily "handle" him. And not in the formalwear sense.

Another thing: think just how self-possesed Dark Willow is. The contrast to regular Willow is striking, and we have never seen a Big Bad that is quite so contained. After Osiris she never gets particularly angry, to me everything just screams control.

Even compare with the glimpses we get of Vamp Willow, who is - by default - evil. She tortures Angel for no reason other than pleasure, she kills innocents and enjoys it. Dark Willow enjoys her killing of Warren, but strangely enough never seems to want to kill anyone other than the Trio. Well, until she wants to kill everyone anyway. She always wants to beat them down, usually at their own game. She needs to control not only her situation, but other people.

And about Willow still being there deep down, I personally believe that Willow is actually still there on the surface, but, as she says, Willow's a junkie. It is truly an extrapolation of the negative effects her magic has had - Tabula Rasa, Smashed etc. I just don't think, despite the myriad of horrific things she does, she ever exhibits true evil.

 

[FluffyBuffy]

OK somethin' that just popped into my head as I was reading some posts and me commenting on some Angel/Angelus posts is the evolution of Willow to Dark/Darth Willow, whichever you prefer. Where do you think she ceased being willow and began to be Dark Willow. Do you think it was a physical thing or a spiritual thing? When Tara was first killed she called on Osiris to bring her back but it could not happen, Willow had those completely dark eyes and huge anger, I don't think she was evil yet, just grieving. When she went to the magic shop sucked all the black magic out that turned her hair black she I believe she was searching for a way to bring Tara back and instead of ammunition to kill Warren. Then she goes to the hospital and removes the bullet from Buffy. She saved Buffy's life and so not entirely evil yet. When they left to go find Warren she forced Xander to go faster, endangering their lives. Not quite evil yet. When they finally stop the bus and the robot Warren walks out and Buffy and Xander are both trying to tell her not to overreact she doesn't listen. IT's at this moment that she kills the Warren Bot and makes up in her mind that she will kill Warren. This is the point where she becomes evil. She hurts the people she cares about the most and leaves them by using magic. This signifies her leaving the old willow behind and evolving to evil through magic. What do you think?

Well it is kind of obvious that she got her anger when Tara died. She loved her very much and probably seeing Warren triggered it more and made her lose control. I mean did you see her face when she saw Tara dead? God, that scene still makes me cry.

And yes the Glory scene too, I mean Glory harmed Tara and basically Willow is very protective of her girlfriend so it is understandable that she loses control when it comes to Tara.

I know what she did to Warren was awful but he deserved it.

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Do you think Warren deserved that?

I don't think so. Warren killed a beautiful person with a beautiful soul. He shot Buffy. He accidentally killed Katrina (whilst trying to rape her) and then attempted to pin it on Buffy. These are, indeed, heinous crimes. They are heinous crimes, but they're also human crimes that should have been handled in human society, court, and prison. If a death sentence was handed down, then it should have been carried out in a humane manner that promotes justice rather than revenge. Societies that consider themselves civilized do not torture criminals before they put them down. They don't flay them alive. They don't let the bullet enter slowly. They are not slaves to their anger and vengeance. It's a fine line, but that's the difference between justice and what the criminals do. That's also the reason for which the U.S. is under scrutiny for its practices when dealing with alleged terrorists and other detainees -- not for flaying folks alive, thank God, but for neglecting to stay on the right side of that line. Warren did something horrible, but he didn't deserve to be tortured and killed for the sake of vengeance. No one deserves that -- no matter what. That's the whole point. If it's wrong when one person does it, then it's wrong when any other person does it (no matter what the reason).

I think this was an important moment for Willow because Warren didn't deserve it. The rest of the gang all knew the difference between justice and vengeance. They tried to save Johnathan and Andrew because of it. Heck, even Anya, who was at that time a vengeance demon, took the opposite side. But Willow's gruesome murder of Warren showed just how far she'd gone. At that point, she was so overwhelmed by the need for vengeance that she couldn't see -- or didn't care -- that stooping to the criminal's level does not justice make.

 

[FluffyBuffy]

Warren did something horrible, but he didn't deserve to be tortured and killed for the sake of vengeance. No one deserves that -- no matter what. That's the whole point. If it's wrong when one person does it, then it's wrong when any other person does it (no matter what the reason).

I agree with the points in your posts, and yes no one deserves to be killed off like that but watching what he did and than having no remorse or feelings towards it (especially the way he treated his ex girlfriend) made me sort of go on Willow's side a bit. Yes violence is not the answer but when you are in a situation as this it does tend to make you not think and do things in life that you later regret. I didn't have any sympathy for Warren at all, and maybe I am a bit heartless but I just thought he got what he deserved just harsher on the show. Looking at it as not a real life situation made me feel like this.....I don't know.

 

[angelchick182]

I think I actually agree with certain parts of every post, or at least I certainly understand the points of view.

When Tara was killed, and Willow called on Osiris - this was grief and bargaining. When Osiris rejected Willow's plea to resurrect Tara, to me that's when she turned 'dark'. And my opinion is that she remained 'dark' until the point that she captured, tortured, and killed Warren - this is the point where she crossed from 'dark' to 'evil'. This isn't to necessarily say that Willow was evil, but her actions certainly were. As it's been pointed out, Warren accidently killed Katrina(following a near rape), attempted to kill Buffy, and killed Tara unintentionally. There is no doubt that he deserved human justice for his actions, but what he got was fury, rage, and vengance. Another thing that convinced me that Willow went from 'dark' to 'evil' was the fact that Anya didn't sense that need to go to Willow to hand out the vengance for her - she didn't want Warren dead - she wanted to kill him, as Anya pointed out.

To further my point - I see a definitive difference between 'dark' and 'evil'. There are several examples throughout the series, the obvious being after Buffy was resurrected and was "going through the motions" of life, one of the things she did(repeatedly) just to feel alive and connected was begin a sexual relationship with Spike. Were those 'dark' actions? Yes. 'Evil' actions? No. So to me, there's a definite difference.

 

[hyperballadbrad]

I think the point is how it affected Willow and her consequences of such actions.... how you can end up hurting yourself by hurting others. Willow killed someone and then nearly killed the whole world!

 

[Captain Malcolm Reynolds]

I have to say that I think that Willow truly became "Dark" when she killed Warren. Osiris saying no was what pushed her to go back to the magicks but it was when she killed Warren, she truly became evil. After him, she had no regard for her friends. As they're in the cop car, she uses a truck to ram them even though Buffy and Xander were in the car.

 

[LadyLavinia]

To me, Willow really became "dark willow" at the moment that she took her first human life.

For me, it was when she took the life of that doe for the resurrection spell she used on Buffy. That was when Willow started on her road to embracing darkness. At least for me.

 

[InsaneMystic]

For me, it was when she took the life of that doe for the resurrection spell she used on Buffy. That was when Willow started on her road to embracing darkness. At least for me.

Especially since she was not only cockily bragging about the spell afterwards to Giles, but not-so-subtly threatening him against pissing off someone with her degree of magical power! Actually, at that moment I did suspect her to become the Big Bad of the season (until Joss masterfully diverted my attention by bringing in the Trio - yeah, lame of me, correctly guessing the big one and then falling for the red herring!)

 

[hyperballadbrad]

The true moment was the 'Bored now' comment and the complete disregard for her actions and the killing of Warren. It was brutal and cold... and that was definately the cross over. Points before that she could have been stopped a lot sooner, but the Warren thing was the step over the edge

 

[kater]

I think for me Willow's descent into darkness began at the start of the season. When she killed the fawn she took the life of something so profoundly innocent it changed something in her. She realized that she was capable of taking a life rather than just staking vamps or killing demons. The descent is gradual and the breaking point, I believe, was when she did the memory spell. It showed that she had lost respect for both herself and everyone she held dear. Though she did try, at least seemed to, to redeem herself I believe it was only temporary in her desperation to find love again. When Tara dies Willow has nothing left to try for, since the one thing that had been keeping Willow away from the darkness had been needlessly taken from her. I think the end, with Xander was the point at which Willow really is reminded that though she's so far gone, she can be redeemed and that someone cares enough to try. I've always felt that the saddest part of season 6 was how Willow was allowed to take those steps, and that it took her killing someone for her friends to really lay it all on the line. That said, evil willow was awesome!

 

[Kanazaka]

I'm more interesting in Willow's "embrace of the dark side" arc than when she becomes evil. I mark the major steps as:

1. Calling upon dark energy when Glory damages Tara's mind
2. Resurrecting Buffy
3. Placing the Forgetfulness Spell on Tara
4. Getting "juiced up" by Rack

After that, she passed the point of no return, and was bound to become Dark Willow. I view anything before my "1" to be moral lapses, even the spell cast in "Something Blue". Although I'm sure Amy would say that Willow became evil when she kept her as a rat cooped up in a cage for three years 😉 .