David Fury Comments at the time of Crush

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I did some digging and found these comments by David Fury at the time of the episode Crush
"To those who feel my conviction that Spike can never be redeemed and cannot someday end up with our heroine, shows a lack of imagination of my part, I say you're right. It is beyond my limited imagination to see a strong, independent, female character end up falling for a murderer who would be killling innocent people were he not suffering from chip affliction
For those of vou who fault my thinking, I can only say I'II try to be more openminded in the future. In the meanwhile, S/B shippers, you can go back to writing your penpals, Richard Ramirez and the Hillside Stranaler, and I hope they finally accept your marriage proposals..."

Should have said this about fans of his TV show or should he have kept quiet ?
 
I think he could have toned it down, the penpal bit with Ramirez etc is way over the top.

But otherwise, let writers have opinions. Others felt the opposite. So that is fine, but the direct and nasty rather personal attack towards those who like the ship… nah, that ain’t it.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I feel the same.
Taake said:
I think he could have toned it down, the penpal bit with Ramirez etc is way over the top.

But otherwise, let writers have opinions. Others felt the opposite. So that is fine, but the direct and nasty rather personal attack towards those who like the ship… nah, that ain’t it.
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Plus leaving everything else aside, calling your audience serial killer lovers isn't great long term planning either for a show
 
The underlying tension is, Joss's Buffy was a critical darling but a commercial failure. Now, the WB needed the critical darlings to be taken seriously as a network, to get on the cover of entertainment weekly, they were important. But commercially, Buffy inadvertently created the WB/CW business plan, trashy teen melodramas with attractive people wearing designer clothes, but with a veneer of respectability that the 90210 Gen X stuff lacked. That made money , and media that wholeheartedly embraced the Bangel formula made money.

So, I get his point, Fury spent years making Buffy the hero and Spike the villain, not "The Vampire's Degenerate Couetsean" or whatever the heck the audience wanted.

As far as insulting your fans, you should see the debates about Gul Dukat or Tywin Lannister. Anytime you cast a villain with a charming actor, people will defend the character.
 
AlphaFoxtrot said:
The underlying tension is, Joss's Buffy was a critical darling but a commercial failure. Now, the WB needed the critical darlings to be taken seriously as a network, to get on the cover of entertainment weekly, they were important. But commercially, Buffy inadvertently created the WB/CW business plan, trashy teen melodramas with attractive people wearing designer clothes, but with a veneer of respectability that the 90210 Gen X stuff lacked. That made money , and media that wholeheartedly embraced the Bangel formula made money.

So, I get his point, Fury spent years making Buffy the hero and Spike the villain, not "The Vampire's Degenerate Couetsean" or whatever the heck the audience wanted.

As far as insulting your fans, you should see the debates about Gul Dukat or Tywin Lannister. Anytime you cast a villain with a charming actor, people will defend the character.
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There was talk of a Kira/Dukat Romance but it was Nana Visitor who shot that down
 
I wish romancing of the monster was not real. The truth is that powerful, violent and cruel men populate history.

So does idolizing them sexually.

Society programs women to see such men as desirable, even though the actuality of it is invariably misery.

Violent "masterful" men are often lionized for their contributions to history. Even some modern leaders proudly tout their sexual escapades.

Some of the historic leaders did do actual good works while simultaneously doing horrendous things, particularly to the weak and especially to womem. These behaviours were often codified into the law.

Many of them had any woman they wanted, often they had harems of women and girls, though for respectability these were called different things in different societies. Many men still aspire to this c%#man status.

In high schools, rapist and near rapist athletes often get the girl and make a game of "getting her drunk and getting her laid". An expectation is that she will service him on her knees or be considered a prude or frigid. Those who do give service are considered sluts, especially if they are good at it.

Men are not given nicknames, regardless. Although men are much easier to orgasm, most sexual practice schools women to please men. In the 70s women began to ask for what they wanted - this was the start of the sexual revolution (but hook up culture has sent us backward.)

Although virginity is no longer so highly prized (holding onto virginity allowed girls & women to delay or avoid unwanted early sex) (virginity matters less partly because DNA tests can prove paternity) many women are still advised to close their eyes and be available.

Lose. lose for many women. They are expected to 'put out' and do (sometimes degrading) acts that can't *biologically* bring them any pleasure, while most acts they perform do give men pleasure (most boys learn about sex via porn sex, which is for performance not pleasure. Most horny 12-14 year olds don't differentiate, many never do)

Stand by your man' (cheating, lying, infecting you) is still a culturally acceptable thing. Men are shamed for similar action.

So... Us worrying about young women romanticizing the monster? Letching for Spike or Angel? I think we (and Fury) are worrying about the wrong things.
 
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Such a great post. I wish I could give it an award.
Btvs fan said:
I do wonder if that's what Joss Whedon also felt but was to smart to say so openly
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Quite the opposite. Joss loved Spike and Buffy together. And don't forget they get back together in S10. Joss had to okay that.

Joss told this to Complex magazine in 2016:

“I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me. Actually, I’m a Spike/Angel shipper. Completely re-write the equation.”
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That said, I've heard he was frustrated initially with Spike's popularity, and begrudingly kept him in on the show, but only because he believed villains should be killed off.

Source: 'Avengers' Director Joss Whedon Wants to Make a Star Wars Movie
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
Quite the opposite. Joss loved Spike and Buffy together. And don't forget they get back together in S10. Joss had to okay that.

Joss told this to Complex magazine in 2016:



That said, I've heard he was frustrated initially with Spike's popularity, and begrudingly kept him in on the show, but only because he believed villains should be killed off.

Source: 'Avengers' Director Joss Whedon Wants to Make a Star Wars Movie
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Joss was also the guy who had Spike having Sex with Harmony in Destiny Angel Season 5. Even Fury seemed against it
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Agent Z said:
Was this in response to Spuffy shippers getting particularly nasty? If so, I think I sympathize with him.
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No, Fury had given an interview saying he was against Spike and Buffy or even making Spike good as it would make Angel less special.

A lot of fans objected to that to which the David Fury post happened
 
I wonder if David Fury was paid or ordered to take this position. If I controlled a network and I wanted to float an unpopular idea, I would have a writer come up with it "independently" so I could distance myself from it if the audience was outraged.
 
Ethan Reigns said:
I wonder if David Fury was paid or ordered to take this position. If I controlled a network and I wanted to float an unpopular idea, I would have a writer come up with it "independently" so I could distance myself from it if the audience was outraged.
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No he wasn't paid. It was what he genuinely thought. Jane Espenson for example was the other end and a Spuffy shipper
 
Agent Z said:
Was this in response to Spuffy shippers getting particularly nasty? If so, I think I sympathize with him.
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Yes, I wondered about the timeline on the above quote. If he had fans attacking him and being awful, this might've been his response. EDIT: Ah, so it was due to Fury airing his opinion and fans went off on him.

I mean, SMG was sent death threats - plural - for picking Bangel over Spuffy. That is horrifying. I'm guessing (I don't know for certain) David Boreanaz might've received a nasty comment or two considering he also is team Bangel.

But for the argument that exists that: 'he's a fictional character/relationship and it's a fictional series' - feels more defensive than anything. Because if that was the case, why attack Angel, or Riley, or Xander (or anyone for that matter?) - after all, they too are fictional characters, in a fictional town in a fictional series.

Somehow it felt like critisising Spuffy was off-limits but it was open season on everyone else.


This was spot on: "...to see a strong, independent, female character end up falling for a murderer who would be killling innocent people were he not suffering from chip affliction"

Having Buffy tell her rapist and abuser she 'loves' him - whether she meant it or not - is stomach churning. Or even going back to s5, the idea she was somehow falling for him - when the evidence points otherwise..
 
hoponlilmama said:
Yes, I wondered about the timeline on the above quote. If he had fans attacking him and being awful, this might've been his response. EDIT: Ah, so it was due to Fury airing his opinion and fans went off on him.

I mean, SMG was sent death threats - plural - for picking Bangel over Spuffy. That is horrifying. I'm guessing (I don't know for certain) David Boreanaz might've received a nasty comment or two considering he also is team Bangel.

But for the argument that exists that: 'he's a fictional character/relationship and it's a fictional series' - feels more defensive than anything. Because if that was the case, why attack Angel, or Riley, or Xander (or anyone for that matter?) - after all, they too are fictional characters, in a fictional town in a fictional series.

Somehow it felt like critisising Spuffy was off-limits but it was open season on everyone else.


This was spot on: "...to see a strong, independent, female character end up falling for a murderer who would be killling innocent people were he not suffering from chip affliction"

Having Buffy tell her rapist and abuser she 'loves' him - whether she meant it or not - is stomach churning. Or even going back to s5, the idea she was somehow falling for him - when the evidence points otherwise..
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The evidence depended on the writer of that specific episode and there individual views of Spike and Spuffy. There was no continuity and it changed each episode. Its why Buffy could bring Joyce and Dawn to Spike one episode then be horrified at Dawn being there the next.
 
Btvs fan said:
The evidence depended on the writer of that specific episode and there individual views of Spike and Spuffy. There was no continuity and it changed each episode. Its why Buffy could bring Joyce and Dawn to Spike one episode then be horrified at Dawn being there the next.
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And that is a problem. First off, for re-treading over the tale of a vamp in love with a Slayer (erm, been there done that!), for listening to fans who were making noise about wanting them to get together and then the conflicting views.

There were other ways to keep Spike around that didn't have to ruin his character and cause these silly 'shipping wars'. Spuffy damaged his character. I don't think any of the writers hated Spike as an individual character, but they were obviously torn on Spuffy.

It was a mistake to make it happen. It should've ended at the episode Something Blue - where we can see as a 'couple' they don't even get along.
 
Btvs fan said:
I did some digging and found these comments by David Fury at the time of the episode Crush
"To those who feel my conviction that Spike can never be redeemed and cannot someday end up with our heroine, shows a lack of imagination of my part, I say you're right. It is beyond my limited imagination to see a strong, independent, female character end up falling for a murderer who would be killling innocent people were he not suffering from chip affliction
For those of vou who fault my thinking, I can only say I'II try to be more openminded in the future. In the meanwhile, S/B shippers, you can go back to writing your penpals, Richard Ramirez and the Hillside Stranaler, and I hope they finally accept your marriage proposals..."

Should have said this about fans of his TV show or should he have kept quiet ?
Click to expand...

I love it when people say what they really think. I much prefer comments like Fury's to Whedon's ever changing, commercially correct, lies.

I have always found the shock and dismay from the Spuffies and Spike Lovers to be hillarious.

Also, I have never understood the desire to defend a character, any character (my personal favorite is Jess on Gilmore Girls), after they repeatedly prove themselves to be manipulative, entitled, mysogenystic, abusers.
 
Reason: Spelling & Grammar
NoShip said:
I love it when people say what they really think. I much prefer comments like Fury's to Whedon's ever changing, commercially correct, lies.

I have always found the shock and dismay from the Spuffies and Spike Lovers to be hillarious.

Also, I have never understood the desire to defend a character, any character (my personal favorite is Jess on Gilmore Girls), after they repeatedly prove themselves to be manipulative, entitled, mysogenystic, abusers.
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He'd arguably mellowed a bit by Angel Season 5 though I don't think he'd changed his mind to much but he was against the Harmony/Spike sex scene that he said Joss put in
 
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