charmingslayer
How've you been...RAT
I just got finished re-wathcing Spiral and i think i just heard the General guy say if Dawn dies everone's memory of her will fade.
is this true?
is this true?
Dawn "Spiral"
- Thread starter charmingslayer
- Start date
white avenger
white avenger
Obviously, we have no way of knowing unless she actually does die, but it might make sense, since the initial memory of her past as Buffy's sister apparently started when she was created.
eveagain
Townie
This is a great question (I'll have to re-watch the episode to catch that) and leads to the further questions: Did *Buffy* hear him say it and actually understand the implications of it? If so, how does (or just plain *does*) that affect anyone's viewing of Buffy's choice to sacrifice herself?
For me it just reinforces the sense I have that Buffy was exhausted with fighting a battle she hadn't wanted to re-enter in the first place (remember in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" her first meeting with Giles) and was finally ready to let go. After all, if the memories of Dawn were to fade with her death - memories that were constructed and essentially lies in the first place - what pain there would be in letting her go would also fade. Yes, Buffy would be alone with only her absentee father left as family (since we never see her extended family I assume they aren't super close) but the alternative was to die.
It just seems to me that both of Buffy's options in that moment on the tower were selfish. Either she could let her sister (fake or not, the emotions became real) die or she could sacrifice herself, but either way Buffy wouldn't really have to live with the consequences/pain of her choice. (In one case she would be forgetting Dawn ever existed and in the other she would be... well, dead.)
Thoughts? Did any of that even make sense?
For me it just reinforces the sense I have that Buffy was exhausted with fighting a battle she hadn't wanted to re-enter in the first place (remember in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" her first meeting with Giles) and was finally ready to let go. After all, if the memories of Dawn were to fade with her death - memories that were constructed and essentially lies in the first place - what pain there would be in letting her go would also fade. Yes, Buffy would be alone with only her absentee father left as family (since we never see her extended family I assume they aren't super close) but the alternative was to die.
It just seems to me that both of Buffy's options in that moment on the tower were selfish. Either she could let her sister (fake or not, the emotions became real) die or she could sacrifice herself, but either way Buffy wouldn't really have to live with the consequences/pain of her choice. (In one case she would be forgetting Dawn ever existed and in the other she would be... well, dead.)
Thoughts? Did any of that even make sense?
A
Aethra
Lots of sense! I agree with, like... everything you said, haha
white avenger
Add to that what Spike said about every Slayer having a death wish. Sying is their only real way of escaping he constant struggle. No more pain or fear. Just final rest...
S
sapientiapaucis
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Cohen
Hellhound
finally, someone has seen the light. I've thought this for years, I just couldn't remember where i heard it..
InsaneMystic
Ex-Scooby
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I think that's kind of odd... would find it more logical (as logical as magically constructed memories about green-ball-of-energy-turned-pesky-little-sister go 😉 😛 ) that the constructed memories would disappear (i.e., everything before the end of BvD), but the memories of "real" interaction would remain - but that would likely carry a cruel edge hardly fitting with the family theme of S5. Just imagine Dawn dying and changing into a fading green lightball, and then in later seasons hearing, e.g., Xander refer to "Remember when we guarded that lightball-thingy from Glory?" I guess that would ring painful even with the Dawn-haters...
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
I do very much agree that Buffy's self-sacrafice was selfish. I know some people will disagree with me on this, and that's alright 🙂.
The reason I think this is because, assuming she had known about her memories fading, then what is the huge issue with sacraficing Dawn? After all, Buffy can handle the pressure and her responsibility - she killed Angel to save the world, and we all know she loved him "more then anything she will ever love in this life". I think it has a lot to do with Buffy's promise to her mother to always protect Dawn. She didn't want to let her mother down by "letting" Dawn die. And when she comes to that reveleation (about Dawn's blood being her blood) she then has an excuse to jump instead. Ritual suicide.
Buffy did not need to jump. Yet she did. As Spike would say, Buffy was half in love with the idea of death. I believe the jump was partially a suicide. Maybe on a sunconcious level, Buffy wanted to be done. with everything. Being the slayer, having to save the world - mostly, she wanted to be done having to make hard choices like the one with Dawn.
Any other thoughts, guys?
This interpretation seems quite unforgiving, frankly.
Surely there's a component of desire on Buffy's part (the show hints at that for a reason) but it's not the ultimate one.
It's made evident that Buffy loves Dawn on multiple levels: she loved her as a "true" sister first, and when she learns the truth about her, learns to love her in a new, maybe deeper way. Also Dawn becomes very vulnerable after discovering the truth herself and inevitably Buffy becomes twice as protective.
I don't think that duty (towards the Key element, or the promise made to her mother) ever really comes into the equation.
Ultimately, Buffy jumps so that Dawn can live.
She loves her deeply and feels so guilty about the simple thought of surrendering and failing her that she remains comatose for almost a full episode!
By the way, Dawn is sweet, she's designed to be sweet by monks and show authors alike, I don't get how people can complain about her 🙂
PurplePoof
Surgeon Of Mean
See, all the more reason why Buffy shoulda pushed the little bitch into the portal...
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Well, our little Buff is not always known for making the right choices 🙂 But I guess if she hadn't died and been brought back, we wouldn't have all the delicious Spuffy moments of season 6 ('cause I know she would never had slept with him if she wasn't seriously disturbed) and as a result of this, her not loving him, Spike would have never sought out a soul...so I guess it all worked out???
xaphania
Spike/Buffy
I never picked up on that, but I've just gone and looked at the line in the transcript and it reads as:
So looking back, I think whenever I've heard this line, I've always taken the "she" to mean Glory. Now I've seen this thread I'm not so sure. Hmm...
So looking back, I think whenever I've heard this line, I've always taken the "she" to mean Glory. Now I've seen this thread I'm not so sure. Hmm...
All I could find in the transcript was this:
Gregor: The little girl. The key. Destroy it, and the will of the beast will be broken, she will fade, a distant memory ... and all of this madness will end.
In which case he is referring to Glory only being a memory, nothing to do with Dawn.
Gregor: The little girl. The key. Destroy it, and the will of the beast will be broken, she will fade, a distant memory ... and all of this madness will end.
In which case he is referring to Glory only being a memory, nothing to do with Dawn.
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
Is this a serious question? I mean, okay, let's put it in perspective. Let's take the only family member you have, the person you love and have sworn to protect, and say we'll kill them, but it's okay because you won't remember it. Would you let them die, even if their memory would be erased?
I don't know about you, but I do have *one* person I consider my family. And if I was given that option, I'd jump just as Buffy did. Without hesitation. I wouldn't give a damn if I wouldn't remember him after he died. It would still be a HUGE issue to sacrifice him. I wouldn't do it if there was any other way around it.
I disagree that Buffy did not "need" to jump. Maybe we can see another option for her, but she certainly could not see another option for herself. Letting her younger sister kill herself was NOT an option for her. And maybe it's something to disagree with, but frankly I think it's something to admire.
I think if Buffy had been able to jump into the portal, S2, instead of Angel, she would have done it there too. And no, I don't think it's because she was worn out, or selfish, or whatever. It's because if Buffy can save the world without killing anyone else unnecessarily, she does. Before she's a killer, before she's a Slayer, she's a hero. Bottom line.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Had Buffy just stood there and let Dawn jump, she would not be our Buffy. She just wouldn't.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
In all due honesty, I posted that a long time ago - before I'd really thought about the episode and rewatched it... so ignore me lol
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
Right.
Also, Gregor was trying to convince everyone that Dawn had to be killed, so his words were, hmmm, "biased".
And even if he did refer to Dawn, as far as humanity is concerned, the memory of just about everyone eventually fades away... I'd prefer this interpretation, instead of the instant loss of notion about little Dawn. (yes, right, I like Dawn, ok? 🙂 )
Anyway, my bad for resurrecting an old thread 😉
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Oh, don't mind this moronic post of mine. It's pretty old, and since I've rewatched and revaluated my ideas about it...plus I think I was intoxicated while writing this, which explains the horrible spelling and editing...bleh.
And yes! I agree... all this Dawn-hating is lame. I love her, she is one of my favroite characters, and Buffy's intense love for her is quite endearing.