Dawn

[thunderhawk86]

This is mostly for those that disliked Dawn (including me). If Dawn was introduced along with Buffy in the first season do you think that would have been more tolerable than inserting a wedge in the chemistry and flow of the show? Or do you think she would still be disliked no matter what?

I think if she would have been introduced with the main cast I would have been fine with her. She would still be annoying, but it wouldn't be as annoying as dropping her in a well established cast. If Dawn had been there at the beginning there would be no only child buffy to compare it to. But since we saw both in made me miss when buffy was a single child. Plus then it gets me to wonder if Dawn wasn't there would Riley have left? Would Giles have left? Would Giles and Buffy be closer?

Plus the extra effect of knowing dawn for 5 years and to found out that she was the key? Mind blown. That would have been fantastic.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I don't know. Dawn would have been eleven during season one. Maybe too young for a teenage show? Though I think it could have been very interesting to watch her grow up with Buffy. But if her attitude was the same when she was younger--"Buffy always gets all the attention and never pays any attention to me and so what if she can slay vampires waaaaaaaah"--it could have become very tiresome very quickly.

 

[Lyri]

No, I don't think it would have made much of a difference to Dawn's likability factor if she'd been in the show from day one. Dawn was supposed to be the whiny, griping, snot-nosed kid sister everybody loves to hate. If she'd been brought in during S1, not only would the impact of the fans suddenly finding out that Buffy had a sister after apparently being an only child for four seasons be taken away, but Dawn would have been...what? Nine? Ten? Her interaction with the cast would have been severely limited, because no mother would let their ten year old daughter hang out with high school kids, even if one of them was her big sister.

And I don't actually think that being in it from the start would have made Dawn's revelation as the Key have a bigger impact. The show had done that sort of thing before. Angel was the handsome stranger who warned Buffy about the Harvest and other bad stuff and then suddenly, he was a vampire. Oz was the sweet boy who saw Willow for who she really was and then suddenly he was a werewolf. Riley was supposed to be Buffy's 'normal' boyfriend, and then suddenly, he was part of some underground demon hunting branch of the armed forces. It gets old after a while and people learn to expect it.

I like Dawn, I do, and I loved her introduction and finding out that her whole life had been fabricated and everyone had had their minds tampered with. I don't think I would want it any other way.

 

[frankie]

I like that she wasn't there from the start. To be honest most kid actors tend to annoy me, so it would have had to be some great casting for me to deal with an 11 year old whiny Dawn, I struggled with a teenage whiny Dawn. An eleven year old screaming "Get out Get out GET OUT" would have been rough.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Dawn would still be annoying and Michelle Trachtenberg would still be a terrible actor. I feel at that stage of the show it would be difficult to write content for her because she doesn't fit in with Buffy's high school friends, and in the end it would have just bringing down the quality of the whole season

 

[msfantastico87]

Gotta agree with some here that I loved the fact that she wasn't there from the start. Her story was way too interesting 😀 Also, If she had been there from the start, I would it really have changed her, and how she acted? I think not. I think we still would have gotten some "Get out! Get out! Get out!" moments.

 

[brinkster130]

She would still be one of my least favorite characters. It wasn't so much her being introduced to the show late that I found intolerable...it was her constant whining and selfish attitude.

 

[Mazikeen]

Re:

Dawn...


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfNmyxV2Ncw[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H50wPVbL_z8[/ame]

....


PLEASE​

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGcn15ODltA[/ame]

 

[thunderhawk86]

Interesting views. Although I don't think she would have been too young for the show. Remember the annointed one? I think Joss wanted to have him be big bad of season 2 but the fans hated him. Anyways back to Dawn. I would have always hated Dawn as she was on the show, it would have been more tolerable to me if she had been there from the beginning. It went from yay Dracula to screaming whiny kid. Every time I think back to season 5 i wish she would have been pushed into the dimension or been killed off by giles. Now that would have been an interesting aspect to the Buffy/Giles relationship dynamic.

It doesn't help that things were going relatively smoothly until Dawn came to be. Ever since her introduction a lot of the show became Dawn centric in a way. Even Connor was better. At least he had his reasons for his annoyance, Dawn didn't. Even when Dawn was Buffy's age at the start of the series (15 I think), she was way more annoying and immature than Buffy.

I guess it's just hard for me to care about a character that was introduced over half way through the series who is that annoying. Knowing what it was like pre-dawn just makes post-dawn that much worse.

 

[Lyri]

But that was the whole point of Dawn - the be annoying and self-centered. Yes, she's far less immature than Buffy was at her age, but you have to think about the fact that Buffy HAD to grow up fast. She was the Slayer, she had responsibilities that Dawn could never even imagine.

And I disagree about nothing changing if Dawn was introduced earlier. Your comparison to the Annoying One is flawed. He was a bad guy, he hung out with the bad guys. Dawn was just a regular kid, and there was no logical way for her to be included in the storylines with the Scoobs. Look how infrequently Joyce appeared at the beginning. She was hardly in S4 at all!

 

[BuffyElevated]

Totally agree with everything Lyri has said... Dawn was meant to be the way she was, folks. And I, personally, loved everything about her. I didn't mind that she was whiny, because she wasn't whiny ALL the time like some people claim. And be honest; if you found out you were a mystical key than an all -powerful HellGod wanted to kill, then your mom died, and then your sister died to save you, leaving you with no family left, then your sister was brought back from the dead but acted like she didn't want to be around you, you'd feel whiny too.

 

[Icarium]

But that was the whole point of Dawn - the be annoying and self-centered.

I really, really doubt that. I think it's quite obvious that we were expected to like Dawn. No character hates her. Buffy dying for her is presented as an incredibly heroic feat, etc. The writers just did a really sloppy job of convincing the viewers to like Dawn.

It doesn't help that things were going relatively smoothly until Dawn came to be. Ever since her introduction a lot of the show became Dawn centric in a way. Even Connor was better. At least he had his reasons for his annoyance, Dawn didn't. Even when Dawn was Buffy's age at the start of the series (15 I think), she was way more annoying and immature than Buffy.

While I agree that the show was never the same after Dawn 's introduction, I don't think I can blame her for much of the decline. And she did have plenty of reasons to be depressed, more than any character not named Buffy, actually. And unlike Connor, she never killed anyone. Well, except possibly Miss Kitty Fantastico.

 

[The Unspoken]

It doesn't help that things were going relatively smoothly until Dawn came to be. Ever since her introduction a lot of the show became Dawn centric in a way. Even Connor was better. At least he had his reasons for his annoyance, Dawn didn't. Even when Dawn was Buffy's age at the start of the series (15 I think), she was way more annoying and immature than Buffy.

I guess it's just hard for me to care about a character that was introduced over half way through the series who is that annoying. Knowing what it was like pre-dawn just makes post-dawn that much worse.

I'm not sure what you're basing this on. Her screen time and dialogue is significantly lower than even Anya and post-highschool Xander, two of the most marginalized characters in the 'verse who were practically non-entities by season 7. The show did not become Dawn-centric, nor is she to blame for any perceived decline in quality.

As for her immaturity, remember who had to stop Dawn from sacrificing herself in 'The Gift'?

Here's a hint: it's not Dawn herself.

 

[thunderhawk86]

Well she didn't have to be part of the main cast, she could have been there like Joyce hanging around the house. Or her age could have been bumped up a year or two as well to be inserted right away.

I just don't see what she brought to the show positively. Every main cast character added something positive to the show. Dawn just seemed to be there to get in the way. Added stress to Buffy, Buffy needing to protect her (Dawn's in trouble, must be Tuesday), Buffy dropping out of college, driving a wedge between Giles and Buffy, death of miss kitty fantastico. There were only two times I could recall that Dawn became as mature as Buffy was at her age, when she wanted to die for the world and when she kicked Buffy out.

Connor being annoying is understandable, having Holtz manipulate you for years while living in a hell dimension and you finally come back only for a higher power to start sexually manipulating you. The period between Connor leaving the Hyperion and having sex with Cordy he definitely improved, at least for me.

Maybe someone can show me what positive things Dawn brought to the show that's unique to Dawn.

 

[Fusions2]

I like the way Dawn was introduced into Buffy. She was thrust upon us and we were expected to have questions instantly but also accept that she was here to stay. It made Dawns story even more mysterious. Its not often that a character like that is slotted in to a TV show like they've always been there. Once we had our answers it made sense. I like the fact we can all imagine what Dawn would have been like in seasons 1-4 and how much the Scoobies minds and memories were altered to fit Dawn in. Although I'm not the biggest fan of Dawn and wanted to slap her half the time, at least shes memorable and made an impact on the show. Isn't that enough?

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well she didn't have to be part of the main cast, she could have been there like Joyce hanging around the house. Or her age could have been bumped up a year or two as well to be inserted right away.

I just don't see what she brought to the show positively. Every main cast character added something positive to the show. Dawn just seemed to be there to get in the way. Added stress to Buffy, Buffy needing to protect her (Dawn's in trouble, must be Tuesday), Buffy dropping out of college, driving a wedge between Giles and Buffy, death of miss kitty fantastico. There were only two times I could recall that Dawn became as mature as Buffy was at her age, when she wanted to die for the world and when she kicked Buffy out.

Connor being annoying is understandable, having Holtz manipulate you for years while living in a hell dimension and you finally come back only for a higher power to start sexually manipulating you. The period between Connor leaving the Hyperion and having sex with Cordy he definitely improved, at least for me.

Maybe someone can show me what positive things Dawn brought to the show that's unique to Dawn.

Why shouldn't she have been a regular? Just because you don't like her and and you don't feel that she was a valuable addition to the show?

By the time Season 7 rolled around, Dawn was as much a valuable part of the Scoobies as any of them were. She did a lot of research, and learned how to translate so she could help out more with that research.

I'm sorry, I just feel that your opinion of Dawn is very much biased by the fact that she annoys you and you like Connor better. And that's fine, that's your opinion, but you need to realize that the writers brought Dawn in for a reason. Without Dawn, we wouldn't have seen a lot of the character development in Buffy. Buffy matured and grew a lot over the last 3 seasons, mostly because of her relationship with Dawn.

 

[sisterofmercy]

Well she didn't have to be part of the main cast, she could have been there like Joyce hanging around the house. Or her age could have been bumped up a year or two as well to be inserted right away.

I just don't see what she brought to the show positively. Every main cast character added something positive to the show. Dawn just seemed to be there to get in the way. Added stress to Buffy, Buffy needing to protect her (Dawn's in trouble, must be Tuesday), Buffy dropping out of college, driving a wedge between Giles and Buffy, death of miss kitty fantastico. There were only two times I could recall that Dawn became as mature as Buffy was at her age, when she wanted to die for the world and when she kicked Buffy out.

Connor being annoying is understandable, having Holtz manipulate you for years while living in a hell dimension and you finally come back only for a higher power to start sexually manipulating you. The period between Connor leaving the Hyperion and having sex with Cordy he definitely improved, at least for me.

Maybe someone can show me what positive things Dawn brought to the show that's unique to Dawn.

As well as annoying Buffy, she gave her something to fight for when she had nothing else. After her mother died she had to keep going to protect and look after Dawn. I think the fact that her name is 'Dawn' also speaks volumes if you think about- she gave Buffy hope for the future. Here was someone completely innocent who would actually benefit directly from all the good Buffy did to save the world. She acted as a bridge between the mystical world and the physical world, something that Buffy needed to keep herself connected to the real world (she obviously lost sight of this in S6, as emphasised by her neglecting Dawn). She also allowed Buffy to fully mature from a child to a woman, she had to become the older one and take control.

She may have been annoying, but she did have a purpose. It just wasn't explicit.

 

[Icarium]

Why shouldn't she have been a regular? Just because you don't like her and and you don't feel that she was a valuable addition to the show?

I like Dawn and I still think her presence in quite a few episodes added pretty much nothing to them. The writers should have either given her something to do or treated her as they treated Joyce.

By the time Season 7 rolled around, Dawn was as much a valuable part of the Scoobies as any of them were. She did a lot of research, and learned how to translate so she could help out more with that research.

In S7 research was about as useful as praying for divine intervention. Also, Dawn's sudden transformation into "research girl" happened off-screen which looked very, very forced to me. I know they needed to make her useful but seeing her be better at research than Willow and Giles made me wonder if the writers had watched their own show.

Without Dawn, we wouldn't have seen a lot of the character development in Buffy. Buffy matured and grew a lot over the last 3 seasons, mostly because of her relationship with Dawn.

Personally I think Buffy of Prophecy Girl and Becoming is about 384304348549 times more mature than Buffy of Lies My Parents Told Me. And that being willing to doom the entire universe to give Dawn a few more minutes of life was by far the most stupid idea Buffy ever had. She already had a ton of responsibilities, I don't think turning her into a parental figure added much to do show. Not least because the writers couldn't seem to make up their minds between "Buffy loves Dawn more than anything" and "Buffy couldn't give a fig about Dawn" (see Villains or Lies My Parents Told Me). I am sure the writers wanted me to believe the former but the execution was so bad that I never really did. The Tara-Dawn bond, for all its five minutes of screen time, came across as much more real than the Buffy-Dawn one and its hours upon hours of screen time and speech after speech about how awesome and meaningful it was.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I like Dawn and I still think her presence in quite a few episodes added pretty much nothing to them. The writers should have either given her something to do or treated her as they treated Joyce.



In S7 research was about as useful as praying for divine intervention. Also, Dawn's sudden transformation into "research girl" happened off-screen which looked very, very forced to me. I know they needed to make her useful but seeing her be better at research than Willow and Giles made me wonder if the writers had watched their own show.



Personally I think Buffy of Prophecy Girl and Becoming is about 384304348549 times more mature than Buffy of Lies My Parents Told Me. And that being willing to doom the entire universe to give Dawn a few more minutes of life was by far the most stupid idea Buffy ever had. She already had a ton of responsibilities, I don't think turning her into a parental figure added much to do show. Not least because the writers couldn't seem to make up their minds between "Buffy loves Dawn more than anything" and "Buffy couldn't give a fig about Dawn" (see Villains or Lies My Parents Told Me). I am sure the writers wanted me to believe the former but the execution was so bad that I never really did. The Tara-Dawn bond, for all its five minutes of screen time, came across as much more real than the Buffy-Dawn one and its hours upon hours of screen time and speech after speech about how awesome and meaningful it was.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, despite what anyone says against Dawn's presence on the show, she was there, and she was a series regular, and people just have to deal with it, whether or not you think Dawn was a good addition to the show or not.

 

[Fusions2]

I like Dawn and I still think her presence in quite a few episodes added pretty much nothing to them. The writers should have either given her something to do or treated her as they treated Joyce.

That would be throwing away what started out to be a great storyline for Dawn. She came in to the show with originality and mystery. If they had just killed her off it would have defeated the point of her story in the long run. It wasn't just about Dawn being The Key but about Buffy having a sister and having responsibility closer to home.

In S7 research was about as useful as praying for divine intervention. Also, Dawn's sudden transformation into "research girl" happened off-screen which looked very, very forced to me. I know they needed to make her useful but seeing her be better at research than Willow and Giles made me wonder if the writers had watched their own show.

It wasn't. How else were they meant to show Dawn maturing? They finally found a pace at which Dawn could still be a teenager but also able to handle life in the Scooby gang fully. That role had to be filled and I think Dawn fitted it perfectly, it may have happened off screen but it was better that way. Other wise we would have had useless screen time filler. I think the writers hinted that Dawn had watched Buffy and the Scoobies more than she let on. She showed that at the end of season 6 when Buffy asked Dawn to help her in the fight against Willow's monster creations. Even Buffy was surprised, that was enough for me to know that Dawn was ready.

Personally I think Buffy of Prophecy Girl and Becoming is about 384304348549 times more mature than Buffy of Lies My Parents Told Me. And that being willing to doom the entire universe to give Dawn a few more minutes of life was by far the most stupid idea Buffy ever had.

I actually think your wrong. Buffy showed more maturity in Lies My Parents Told Me than she did earlier on in the series. Buffy made an overall right choice to save Spike because she needed him in the fight. Buffy wasn't only protecting the world but also the only blood relative she had left. Her sister. I doubt if you were in Buffy's shoes you'd let your sibling die because you "were annoyed with them." Buffy was prepared to lay her life down for Dawn and actually did it so she could live. That's maturity right there and then.

With Dawn suddenly being part of Buffy's life made a lot of sense. We needed to see Buffy mature differently after Joyce died and show that her death made a big impact on Buffy's life. If Dawn hadn't been there Buffy would have probably got over Joyce's death within a few episodes and we'd be back to normality and Joyce would be forgotten about. With Dawn there though you see that no matter what Buffy has to look after Dawn, she needs her big sister. Normality is just as hard as the supernatural in the Buffyverse.