Dead Man's Party - Interesting Facts

[Icarium]

I couldn't believe he had the nerve to refer to Buffy's grief and guilt over having to send Angel to HELL "guy troubles".

He was merely exaggerating. Or you think that Xander actually regards the Angelus affair as merely guy trouble? And Buffy pretty much provoked that reaction by playing the jealousy card as an explanation why she couldn't have gone to Xander for support. Low blow to answer a low blow. Not nice, but very human, IMO.

Let's also not forget that when Xander was in a similar situation and his friend was vamped and dusted he didn't run away for three months. Xander doesn't know that Angel got his soul back and Buffy had loudly proclaimed how ready she was to finally kill him off in Becoming. If anything, he is giving her mental resilience more credit than he should have. Maybe he is thinking "Buffy didn't break down when she had to kill Ford, didn't stop functioning when Jenny died, so why did she have to run away this time?"

I still say they shouldn't be angry at Buffy because they tried to do her job. It's not like she asked them to.

That's not why they are angry at her. Okay, maybe it's a small contributing factor but the main reason is that the Scoobs think that Buffy has forgotten that friendship is a two way street. They cannot support her emotionally if they don't know where she is or if she is around but plays the "you wouldn't understand" card. She, for her part, doesn't show any curiosity about Willow and Giles recovering from the wounds they had last time she saw them and seems totally absorbed in her own problems (there are like a million Angel flashbacks in Anne, DMP and F, H and T). Now, I am not blaming Buffy for that because her life sucks, to put it quite mildly, but I can totally see why Willow, Xander and Joyce might get the impression that for Buffy they are somewhat disposable, that she feels she can come and go from their lives whenever she wants (the scandals only begin after she tries to run from home once again) and still be entitled to the sympathy and support she was used to receive before running away.

Had it been another show, it would have either gone for instant reconciliation all around or have shown how Buffy is right, right, right and everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong. What I love about DMP is that everybody has a point and everybody overreacts somewhat. No one is perfect, everybody is human and in character.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

That's not what Joyce did. The bottom line is she DIDN'T want Buffy to leave at all. The police were after her, something bad was happening outside, Buffy shocking her with the news about Slayers/demons/blood in her clothes, Joyce putting two and two together.

"If you walk out of that door, don't ever think of coming back." It was Joyce's last desperate attempt to make Buffy stay. She thought the threat will scare Buffy into staying. It's understandable.

I also understand why Buffy thought Joyce was kicking her out, she'd been through so much and didn't need to be around anybody. She ran away for that reason. It's also understandable.

I understand both Buffy and Joyce, and feel bad for both of them. I'm just not taking sides.






They did say it was a slow year between S1 and S2, and as we've seen there were vampires that needed to be slain between S2 and S3. So, the gang took care of them the best way they can because no one was around to do it. You won't expect them to let innocents die because Buffy wasn't around anymore.

I understand Xander's anger. It was Buffy's job to slay the vampires. She has the strength to do it effortlessly. Xander and the others don't. But they can't just let vampires roam around and kill innocents because they weren't handed Buffy's superpowers. And I think his anger has more to do with Buffy running away without contact than the slaying part, he seemed to enjoy that a lot.

Buffy couldn't or wouldn't have stayed threat or no threat because she had to stop the world from being sucked into hell. When she had to sacrifice Angel to save the world Buffy ran away to mourn him. I doubt any of her friends or mother would have understood what she was going through or feeling and if Buffy had contacted her mother, Giles, or the scooby gang they might have tried to get her to come home before she was ready. Buffy had been diligent in the slaying before then and the scooby gang held their own. Xander had no right to be angry at Buffy after he lied to her in Becoming 2 and she could just as easily have brought that up but she didn't. It would all have been better if this whole exchange had taken place in private and not in front of most if not all of the studentbody of Sunnydale High.

 

[Taake]

Buffy couldn't or wouldn't have stayed threat or no threat because she had to stop the world from being sucked into hell. When she had to sacrifice Angel to save the world Buffy ran away to mourn him. I doubt any of her friends or mother would have understood what she was going through or feeling and if Buffy had contacted her mother, Giles, or the scooby gang they might have tried to get her to come home before she was ready. Buffy had been diligent in the slaying before then and the scooby gang held their own. Xander had no right to be angry at Buffy after he lied to her in Becoming 2 and she could just as easily have brought that up but she didn't. It would all have been better if this whole exchange had taken place in private and not in front of most if not all of the studentbody of Sunnydale High.

Well true, there could have been a better setting, but then emotions tend to flare and that's just life.
Xander had every right to be angry with Buffy for running away for the reasons Sosa Lola named.

Let's not forget that the gang did not know that Angel had in fact been turned back before Buffy had to kill him. To them she had just slayed her worst enemy. And though they would have understood her need to mourn I can see why they would have problems with her taking off without letting anyone know.
It wasn't as if they knew she would come back. Ever.
And even if she did take off to mourn there is no denying that she kind of left her friends and Giles in the lurch, understandably so, but nonetheless - she did turn her back on the helpless.

I don't think there's a wrong side or right side in this. Buffy was hurt and angry and in turn she hurt and angered her friends. They're all equally justified in their emotions even if none of them handled them particularly well.

 

[sosa lola]

Clearly, I have trouble with Joyce as a mother. Sometimes she can be great, I know that. Sometimes she kicks major ass. But then others... I can't help but cringe.

I love Joyce and I think she's a good mom. She's probably not perfect, but I never expected her to be. She's human so she's going to handle things badly from time to time.

As a mother, I try my best to do things as perfect as possible for my kid, but I keep slipping up and losing my temper. It can be difficult, but overall, I think I'm managing well.

I don't think I've ever appreciated Joyce as a character until I became a mother myself. Which is a year and a half now, and yeah, I know, my son isn't a teenager, but the thought of him being a Slayer and wanting to rush out to defeat some monster and I just learned about it ? Just the thought of it makes me go crazy. I'm not sure how I'd handle it, but I know it won't be wisely.

That's where it gets a little confusing, like, why was it a slow time between S1-2? Vampires went on holiday?

Just like you said, bad writing.

Xander seemed to have enjoyed slaying, actually. And that year earlier, he was bored to tears because he had nothing to do. And Cordelia was on vacation, so he wouldn't be spending time with her. I really think that ruining my summer comment was about him being upset with her for leaving the way she did.

Had it been another show, it would have either gone for instant reconciliation all around or have shown how Buffy is right, right, right and everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong. What I love about DMP is that everybody has a point and everybody overreacts somewhat. No one is perfect, everybody is human and in character.

Word.

Xander had no right to be angry at Buffy after he lied to her in Becoming 2 and she could just as easily have brought that up but she didn't.

She would if she knew. As shown in S7, she didn't know Xander had lied.

Buffy couldn't or wouldn't have stayed threat or no threat because she had to stop the world from being sucked into hell.

I know that. But Joyce doesn't. The woman just learned that her daughter fights monsters and may die while doing it. While I know that she handled it badly, I can't but sympathize with her.

I understand why Buffy did what she did, I understand her need to leave, I understand why she didn't call. But I also understand why the others are angry, and I sympathize with both sides.

 

[Icarium]

I know that. But Joyce doesn't. The woman just learned that her daughter fights monsters and may die while doing it. While I know that she handled it badly, I can't but sympathize with her.

Yes, I never understood the people who blame Joyce for her behaviour in Becoming. Did she handle the situation well? Hell, not. But seriously, how many people would react to the news that their daughter is a superhero who must save the world, like right now, with something along the lines of "Cool, honey, just make sure you come back for breakfast, you hear"?

 

[InsaneMystic]

Yes, I never understood the people who blame Joyce for her behaviour in Becoming. Did she handle the situation well? Hell, not. But seriously, how many people would react to the news that their daughter is a superhero who must save the world, like right now, with something along the lines of "Cool, honey, just make sure you come back for breakfast, you hear"?

If I learned that by seeing her stake and reduce to a pile of ash, in front of my eyes, a monster that I believed was just a pop culture fantasy, I would be "sure, whatever you say, you're the expert", and back down - and if the kid survives the night, we could continue the talk in the morning.

Mother or not, Joyce is out of line to meddle there. Step back and let the experienced professional handle it - and for goodness sake, don't kick your kid out of the house! Empty threat or not, emotionally charged or not, it's an absolute no go to me.

And of course, it only gets infinitely worse when, after this, Joyce goes blaming Giles in "Anne", and then comes down hard on Buffy in "DMP". With that amount of inability to take responsibility and handle her own mistakes, the woman is too immature to be a mother. (Actually, when Buffy says in "Forever" that Joyce would've always known what do do, I just go "Shut up!?" in disbelief. Must've been the loss messing with her memory. 😛)

 

[sosa lola]

If I learned that by seeing her stake and reduce to a pile of ash, in front of my eyes, a monster that I believed was just a pop culture fantasy, I would be "sure, whatever you say, you're the expert", and back down - and if the kid survives the night, we could continue the talk in the morning.

Talking is easier than doing it. If I just learned that vampires were real, regardless of my daughter staking a vampire in front of me or not, I won't let her leave. No matter how many monsters she "claims" to have killed. I just can't send my daughter outside knowing that she could be killed.

At that moment, Joyce wouldn't think of Buffy as an experienced professional, she'd think of her as her little girl going outside to face danger and possibly get killed. It's not fair to expect Joyce to handle the situation wisely when Buffy just dropped the bomb on her like that. Joyce is a human being and a mother, it's hard for a mother to let her daughter walk out to her death. It's just hard.

 

[GrrArghx]

Yeah, but does that really make sense?

Leaving & not having a home to come back to is a hell of a lot more dangerous than just leaving long enough to go kill a Vampire, lol.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Talking is easier than doing it. If I just learned that vampires were real, regardless of my daughter staking a vampire in front of me or not, I won't let her leave. No matter how many monsters she "claims" to have killed. I just can't send my daughter outside knowing that she could be killed.

At that moment, Joyce wouldn't think of Buffy as an experienced professional, she'd think of her as her little girl going outside to face danger and possibly get killed. It's not fair to expect Joyce to handle the situation wisely when Buffy just dropped the bomb on her like that. Joyce is a human being and a mother, it's hard for a mother to let her daughter walk out to her death. It's just hard.

My reply will just be five words, said by another mother to her child: The mission is what matters.

It may be hard, yes - but overcoming hardship is what makes one a hero. Taking the easy way out, and then blaming everyone but yourself for the results - that's what makes one a jerk.

 

[Icarium]

Yeah, but does that really make sense?

Leaving & not having a home to come back to is a hell of a lot more dangerous than just leaving long enough to go kill a Vampire, lol.

It's not as if Joyce wanted Buffy to leave, that was just her way of trying to keep her home.

It may be hard, yes - but overcoming hardship is what makes one a hero. Taking the easy way out, and then blaming everyone but yourself for the results - that's what makes one a jerk.

Okay, but nobody said Joyce performed heroically in Becoming. I am just saying I understand her position. It's easy for us to say that she should have understood that Buffy is a superhero and she has to be the one to save the world but that's not exactly a story one believes so easily even if they see something like a vampire being slain in front of them. Not everyone can pull an Oz and just shrug it off with "Actually this explains a lot". Not even Buffy herself, if her words on subject in "The Harvest" are to be believed - "No. No, those weren't vampires, those were just guys in thundering need of a facial. Or maybe they had rabies. It could have been rabies. And that guy turning to dust? Just a trick of light. That's exactly what I said the first time I saw a vampire. Well, after I was done with the screaming part."

Not to mention that even if Joyce accepted the existence of vampires there would still be the issue of Buff claiming she is the only one who could do anything to save the world which does sound a little out there.

And of course, it only gets infinitely worse when, after this, Joyce goes blaming Giles in "Anne",

Giles has to take a portion of the blame, if for nothing else but because just by being Buffy's mother Joyce was prone to get involved in dangerous situations, most notably in "Angel" and "Passion". If I were Joyce I would be more than a bit angry that all the friends of my daughter know the big secret and I don't, even if that lack of knowledge puts me in danger. Heck, Buffy even blamed her for not guessing it earlier which was a bit of a WTF moment for me.

 

[dan k]

I can understand Joyce's reaction. Although her actions really frustrated me i believe she was just trying to protect her daughter. The reason she gave Buffy an ultimatum was a sign of desperation. She would say anything to try and stop her daughter leaving and after what she had just learnt i don't think you can blame her for that.