Dead Man's Party

Joyce really disappointed me. How is she gonna get all down on Buffy when she was the one that told her to leave?! What did she expect? Buffy to come home and explain herself? She did as she was told!
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I don't think Buffy left only because of Joyce, tough. I think it's because first of all, Snyder fires her. Then Joyce is pretty shaken by her daughter's identity and says, because she was under shock, "if you leave don't think about coming back". Then Buffy has to kill Angel. I think it was just way too much. If Buffy hadn't been fired and didn't have to kill Angel, I think she would have come back home.
And I'm sure Joyce didn't mean it. And regretted it like hell when she saw Buffy's room empty.
 
Ms.Trick said:
I don't think Buffy left only because of Joyce, tough. I think it's because first of all, Snyder fires her. Then Joyce is pretty shaken by her daughter's identity and says, because she was under shock, "if you leave don't think about coming back". Then Buffy has to kill Angel. I think it was just way too much. If Buffy hadn't been fired and didn't have to kill Angel, I think she would have come back home.
And I'm sure Joyce didn't mean it. And regretted it like hell when she saw Buffy's room empty.
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I don't think Buffy leaving had to do with anything Joyce said, she only used that for an excuse to run away from the real problem - she had to kill Angel.

But I think killing Angel was just a step too much. She bottled everything up, her life and all, and killing Angel was just a thing that made her pop.

Plus, just for you to know, Buffy wasn't fired, she was expelled. She could only be fired if she was a member of school staff, but she was a student there. 😉
 
M
Ms.Trick
I had the feeling that fired wasn't the good word, misuse of English :D
Yeah, I know it wasn't just what Joyce said, but Joyce holds it against her. Joyce says Buffy was punishing her for over reacting, but when you think about it, what would Joyce have said if Buffy returned that night?
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I think Joyce's part in Buffy's leaving had little to do with the "Don't come back" comment... but more to do with her lack of emotional support for her daughter. Earlier that night, police men had approached Joyce and informed her her daughter was a murder suspect... And instead of being sorry Buffy's friend had died and being a supportive mother... she yelled at her about how the police were looking for her. I know for a fact my mother could never and would never even for a second thing that I was capable of murder. I know Buffy is different because Joyce had been washing the blood out of her clothes and Buffy was getting into more trouble than me... but after she learned the truth, she was still not supportive. She still yelled at her daughter for something she couldn't control. I'm not going to say I wouldn't have done something similar... or that it's all Joyce's fault Buffy left. But I think the part of it that Joyce's fault is because she wasn't as soft and warm as Buffy needed in that moment. Not because she said the words "if you leave this house, don't even think about coming back."
 
If my mother were that unsupportive and told me not to come back, I wouldn't. I think Joyce was completely awful in how she acted. She had a moment of terrible parenting despite all the books she says she's read. Joyce really disappointed me in this episode. I really wanted to slap her.
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Hmmm it was always pretty clear to me that Buffy took Joyce out of context when she was listening in on her and Pat.
 
Justme said:
Hmmm it was always pretty clear to me that Buffy took Joyce out of context when she was listening in on her and Pat.
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Maybe, but does it matter? Buffy didn't know what context Joyce meant it in and she didn't care. She was already feeling like coming back was a mistake and people didn't want her there... and then she heard that... Whatever way Joyce meant it, it hurt... whatever context it was in didn't matter. She said "it's almost worse." Buffy felt like it was a mistake to come back and Joyce told Pat it was (obviously she didn't mean it that way but I'm describing Buffy's thought process). However maladaptive that thought process was... she had reason to think/feel that way. Her friends and her mother had given her that.
 
zobothehobo said:
Maybe, but does it matter? Buffy didn't know what context Joyce meant it in and she didn't care. She was already feeling like coming back was a mistake and people didn't want her there... and then she heard that... Whatever way Joyce meant it, it hurt... whatever context it was in didn't matter. She said "it's almost worse." Buffy felt like it was a mistake to come back and Joyce told Pat it was (obviously she didn't mean it that way but I'm describing Buffy's thought process). However maladaptive that thought process was... she had reason to think/feel that way. Her friends and her mother had given her that.
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Yes I understand what Buffy thought and I understand her actions. There were just posts in the thread that seemed to take Joyces "almost worse" at face value when like I say I thought it was clearly out of context.

---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

And yes it does matter. It's the difference between a terrible Mother and one who is confused and concerned.
 
Justme said:
And yes it does matter. It's the difference between a terrible Mother and one who is confused and concerned.
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I meant does it matter to Buffy's actions... like it didn't matter Joyce was taken out of context... not to Buffy.

I get now that you were talking to fans who may have took Joyce's words at face value without thinking about context and I feel a bit stupid... haha
 
zobothehobo said:
I meant does it matter to Buffy's actions... like it didn't matter Joyce was taken out of context... not to Buffy.

I get now that you were talking to fans who may have took Joyce's words at face value without thinking about context and I feel a bit stupid... haha
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No problem! Don't feel stupid I don't make things clear, I should have said why I was saying it but sometimes I don't want to quote other peoples comments in case they think I am attacking them. I need to be able to use forums better I think.
 
Z
zobothehobo
Sometime I quote too much... and sometimes I get tired of quoting so I don'
I think that Buffy made a really difficult and adult decision to leave and even more so when she decided to come back.

I also remember when the episode Becoming-Part 2 first aired and I balled like a baby at the end...the real kicker however came with the realization that we had to wait ALL Summer long to find out what would become of Buffy! It was a total ordeal!🙂
 
buffyprops said:
I think that Buffy made a really difficult and adult decision to leave and even more so when she decided to come back.

I also remember when the episode Becoming-Part 2 first aired and I balled like a baby at the end...the real kicker however came with the realization that we had to wait ALL Summer long to find out what would become of Buffy! It was a total ordeal!🙂
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About becoming...
I remember I was watching the ending, all teary and hurt (I was a Bangel then, since the term Spuffy wasn't even made yet) and my mum called me for dinner (rice in a soup, don't ask, I love it!) and I just couldn't get myself to sit at the table and eat, or even walk toward the table. I was so damn depressed! That by the way, was the moment I realized I'm a fan. I mean, I did know I LOVED this series very much, and used to look for information on the cast and all. But it wasn't until then when I felt so close to the great show, that I became seriously attached.
 
M
Ms.Trick
[No message]
Yeah, I think you're right actually. This episode does make me kind of mad at Joyce, Xander and Willow mostly. But I seriously did want to slap Xander in this one. Seriously, the dickbrain.

I think the best part about this episode is the conversation about the party to begin with and Oz mentioning 'hootenanny's'. I'm addicted to that word now. Can't stop using it. And that's a pretty funny conversation all up, what with the cat and all.

Oh, and did anybody else find Pat extrememly annoying. The minute she left the screen after her first scene I turned to my sister and said "She should die!". It's funny.
 
zobothehobo said:
I think Joyce's part in Buffy's leaving had little to do with the "Don't come back" comment... but more to do with her lack of emotional support for her daughter. Earlier that night, police men had approached Joyce and informed her her daughter was a murder suspect... And instead of being sorry Buffy's friend had died and being a supportive mother... she yelled at her about how the police were looking for her. I know for a fact my mother could never and would never even for a second thing that I was capable of murder. I know Buffy is different because Joyce had been washing the blood out of her clothes and Buffy was getting into more trouble than me... but after she learned the truth, she was still not supportive. She still yelled at her daughter for something she couldn't control. I'm not going to say I wouldn't have done something similar... or that it's all Joyce's fault Buffy left. But I think the part of it that Joyce's fault is because she wasn't as soft and warm as Buffy needed in that moment. Not because she said the words "if you leave this house, don't even think about coming back."
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In Joyce's defence, she had already been through all of that when Buffy "murdered" Ted. Even though, as far as Joyce was aware, Ted was evil and he didn't technically die because of Buffy, she still saw that Buffy was capable of losing it and killing a human being.
 
NothingButSong said:
In Joyce's defence, she had already been through all of that when Buffy "murdered" Ted. Even though, as far as Joyce was aware, Ted was evil and he didn't technically die because of Buffy, she still saw that Buffy was capable of losing it and killing a human being.
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No. That's not something you should defend Joyce on. Quite frankly I'm offended anyone tried. Buffy was a good person, she made a lot of mistakes, but she was a good person and out of everyone Joyce should have known it. Outside of all reason, Joyce should have KNOWN her daughter wasn't capable of cold hard murder. She should have felt it outside of any reasoning or logic.
 
zobothehobo said:
No. That's not something you should defend Joyce on. Quite frankly I'm offended anyone tried. Buffy was a good person, she made a lot of mistakes, but she was a good person and out of everyone Joyce should have known it. Outside of all reason, Joyce should have KNOWN her daughter wasn't capable of cold hard murder. She should have felt it outside of any reasoning or logic.
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I'm with Nothing on this, Joyce did support Buffy when she came in *despite* the doubts she had about her innocence. Given Buffys record if Joyce didn't consider the fact that she was guilty she would have been pretty stupid.

I think it makes Joyce a better Mother that she was still happy to see Buffy and wanted to help her even though she thought there was a possibility she was a murderer. From Joyces Pov if she hadn't considered it it would make her pretty niave.
 
Yeah, it was a difficult one and it's all about the feelings. I can understand where everyone is coming from. Buffy did put them through a lot and didn't open up about how she was feeling. Willow at least could have been somone she could turn to.

As always Xander's attitude against Buffy is more about how much he admires her. He tends to hold her to a high standard, (a standard way above himself) so when she falls off the pedastal, she falls big time. All of their emotional reactions are understandable. If someone leaves without telling you and is then vague as to why they left, it's naive to think they is any fallout. From their perspetive it's like "You want the people close to understand?? Open up and talk instead of running away." They do have a point but I'm sympathetic to Buffy not being ready to talk about things, she needed time.
 
Watched this episode last night. It's one of those that I actually like. Also, I defend everyone about Buffy. She totally deserved to get ragged on. She shouldn't have left like that. I mean honestly, how many times did my parents tell me not to come back if I left the house? No one takes that seriously...do they? I mean sure there is anger and emotion behind it when it is first said, but Joyce did not mean it. She got stirred up in the moment. Buffy deserved it. Point blank. She was selfish. She could have at least written to Giles or something. He seemed to have been the most worried about her. Also makes me realize how much money he has if he can willingly pull it out of his arse to catch a plane leaving in an hour whenever he has a lead 😛

Anyways...I hated Buffy's pink dress. Totally detest it.

Favorite quote:

*Giles driving to Buffy's house*
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead! *scoffs* Americans!"

Also, I love the foreshadowing in this episode!
 
Taake
Taake
oh yes that horrible dress!!!
Willow My Love said:
If my mother were that unsupportive and told me not to come back, I wouldn't. I think Joyce was completely awful in how she acted. She had a moment of terrible parenting despite all the books she says she's read. Joyce really disappointed me in this episode. I really wanted to slap her.
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Why do people expect parents - especially fictional parents - to behave in an ideal manner 24/7? They can't. They're supposed to be human beings. Why not try seeing it from Joyce's point of view? She had learned a lot about Buffy just recently - stuff that she probably views as very negative. Buffy didn't help matters by keeping her identity as a Slayer a secret for so long. Joyce knows that Buffy is capable of emotionally reacting with violence. And being a human being, she overreacted. I suspect that learning that her daughter is a murder suspect was simply the last straw.
 
S
sosa lola
Wonderful post!
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