Dead Man's Party

[buffyprops]

I mean honestly, how many times did my parents tell me not to come back if I left the house?

And how many times had you just run your lover through with a sword in order to save the world?

I never understood why Buffy didn't throw the part about saving the world in her Mother's Face. Not mentioning the part about Angel I understand but not the other.
Oh and let's not forget that Joyce seems to spend a lot of time in this episode blaming others like Giles rather than really owning up to her own short-comings.
I would have much rather heard her thank Giles for being a guiding Father Figure to Buffy (which she never had until Giles) rather than to hear her rag on him for having a secret relationship with her.

 

[Abby27]

Oh and let's not forget that Joyce seems to spend a lot of time in this episode blaming others like Giles rather than really owning up to her own short-comings.
I would have much rather heard her thank Giles for being a guiding Father Figure to Buffy (which she never had until Giles) rather than to hear her rag on him for having a secret relationship with her.

Agreed. Season 1 and 2 Joyce leaves a lot to be desired IMO. I understand she didn't know Buffy was the slayer, but come now, Giles had been great. And even the little she saw of him before she he was her watcher including visiting her in the hospital in Angel, talking to him in Bad Eggs, and the nice moment they shared in Killed By Death, she had to have known he genuinely loved Buffy like a daughter.

 

[Icarium]

And how many times had you just run your lover through with a sword in order to save the world?

But that's exactly the point - in Becoming Joyce obviously hasn't really processed the revelation of Buffy having to save the world. She thinks the worst that could happen to Buffy is to be arrested. Yes, Joyce saw the vamp being staked but she this wasn't really enough. In those circumstances, Buffy's claim that she needs to go or the world is going to end sounds to Joyce like something along the lines of "I need to kill the president to save the country from those damned commies". So of course, she tries everything to prevent this from happening. She is angry at Giles because all this could have been prevented if he had told her about Buffy being a superhero.

 

[zobothehobo]

But that's exactly the point - in Becoming Joyce obviously hasn't really processed the revelation of Buffy having to save the world. She thinks the worst that could happen to Buffy is to be arrested. Yes, Joyce saw the vamp being staked but she this wasn't really enough. In those circumstances, Buffy's claim that she needs to go or the world is going to end sounds to Joyce like something along the lines of "I need to kill the president to save the country from those damned commies". So of course, she tries everything to prevent this from happening. She is angry at Giles because all this could have been prevented if he had told her about Buffy being a superhero.

But then Buffy tells her "I'm the slayer" and they have the coming out talk. And instead of trying to understand, Joyce is in denial. So in that scene, not only does she at one point believe her daughter is capable of murder, her daughter confesses something REALLY big about her and her life and she doesn't even try to understand, AND she says "if you leave this house don't even think about coming back."

 

[Icarium]

Well, call me crazy but I do believe that the reaction of the vast majority of people when being told "I need to go save the world" would be "Are you insane?". Of course Joyce is denial and why shouldn't she be? Buffy's story isn't exactly plausible. If Buffy had told her she was going to fly to Jupiter to kill some aliens, would you have expected Joyce's reaction to be "Okay, wear something warm and be sure to be back for breakfast. I love you"?

 

[zobothehobo]

Well, call me crazy but I do believe that the reaction of the vast majority of people when being told "I need to go save the world" would be "Are you insane?". Of course Joyce is denial and why shouldn't she be? Buffy's story isn't exactly plausible. If Buffy had told her she was going to fly to Jupiter to kill some aliens, would you have expected Joyce's reaction to be "Okay, wear something warm and be sure to be back for breakfast. I love you"?

1. this post made me chuckle.
2. No I wouldn't and I didn't expect that to be Joyce's reaction here. She was fine until she said "You will MAKE time to explain." Like come on... and then the "well I just don't accept it." It's like "Ok Joyce... you don't accept that your daughter is a hero who is about to go save the world."

As for Joyce not believing her... she believed Spike was a vampire. After she was able to comprehend vampires were real, she should have been able to comprehend someone had to kill them.

 

[Abby27]

As for Joyce not believing her... she believed Spike was a vampire. After she was able to comprehend vampires were real, she should have been able to comprehend someone had to kill them.

Well, it's possible Joyce really couldn't accept her daughter was the one out there killing people. Buffy was her 17y/o child, and obviously Buffy wasn't keeping her tuned in to the most important aspect of her life. I can understand Joyce's initial reaction here and even being so angry and upset that in the heat of the moment think, "I have completely lost control of Buffy, she's crazy, this is crazy, I need her to explain this to me. She's trying to leave? How can I make her stay?" And then giving her that ultimatum.

I saw it as a desperate plea to get some sort of control over Buffy when she realized she hadn't really had much control over her in the past couple of years.

 

[msfantastico87]

I saw it as a desperate plea to get some sort of control over Buffy when she realized she hadn't really had much control over her in the past couple of years.

I agree with this statement. Joyce completely lost it. Then again, which parent wouldn't. Most parents look at their children when they are doing the wrong thing and give them an ultimatum. "Charlie, you bit your brothers finger. If you do it again, No more play time!" Come on. it's the same thing! I stand by my original statement that Buffy totally and completely got what she deserved.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Agreed. Season 1 and 2 Joyce leaves a lot to be desired IMO. I understand she didn't know Buffy was the slayer, but come now, Giles had been great. And even the little she saw of him before she he was her watcher including visiting her in the hospital in Angel, talking to him in Bad Eggs, and the nice moment they shared in Killed By Death, she had to have known he genuinely loved Buffy like a daughter.

Giles wasn't perfect as a parent figure for Buffy. He was no more "great" than Joyce was. He made his own mistakes with Buffy. I never understood this need to put Giles on a pedestal as some ideal authority figure for Buffy. If he was really that ideal, great or perfect; I would have never considered him to be an interesting character.

 

[buffyprops]

I don't recall using the words "Great" "Ideal" or "Perfect" where Giles is concerned in this episode. I do recall saying that he was the ONLY strong male role model Buffy has.
I don't think anyone is trying to imply that Giles is better than Joyce either, but I think it's pretty clear he is ONE of the least "at fault" characters in this episode, certainly less at fault than Joyce.

I think it's a good idea to remember that the episodes we discuss the most heatedly are usually the ones that are written and acted the best and therefore we feel the strongest about...like this one.
It's because of the good writing, directing and acting that I tend to believe all of our strong reactions to it were intended to happen.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I don't recall using the words "Great" "Ideal" or "Perfect" where Giles is concerned in this episode. I do recall saying that he was the ONLY strong male role model Buffy has.
I don't think anyone is trying to imply that Giles is better than Joyce either, but I think it's pretty clear he is ONE of the least "at fault" characters in this episode, certainly less at fault than Joyce.

Why does Buffy need a "strong male role model"? I'm happy for Giles that he was one of the "least at fault" characters in this episode. But that didn't make him a great authority figure. Nor was it his job to be one.

 

[Abby27]

Giles wasn't perfect as a parent figure for Buffy. He was no more "great" than Joyce was. He made his own mistakes with Buffy. I never understood this need to put Giles on a pedestal as some ideal authority figure for Buffy. If he was really that ideal, great or perfect; I would have never considered him to be an interesting character.

Hmm, when I said "great" I meant more that he was adaptable to the situation Buffy was in. He met her and realized the slayer handbook wasn't really for her, and even let Willow and Xander (and later Angel, Cordelia, and Oz) into the scooby gang which is extremely frowned upon in the council, but knew it helped her. He definitely made mistakes (Reptile Boy and The Dark Age for example), but he had gone above the call of duty as a watcher.

Buffy's mom however, was such a "by the book" mom. Her indulgence in the pop psychology of the time of what it meant to be a mother was annoying. I didn't start liking Joyce until season 3 after she found out about Buffy being the slayer and seemed to let loose a little. It definitely must have been shocking to find out your daughter was a vampire slayer (especially after what we learn in Normal Again that Buffy was committed for it at one point) and that this seemingly inconspicuous librarian was guiding her, I still think she should've put together how much time he put into Buffy's safety, Joyce seeing how present he was in her life and that he obviously cared more about her than just doing his job as a watcher and especially since he was flying around the country trying to find her, Joyce should be a little more understanding. I mean, she expressed some gratitude, but still, I think her putting the blame on Giles was just her not taking responsibility for her own mistakes.

 

[Washburne]

One of my least favourite episodes. Just hard to watch. Which good episodes can be, like The Body. I just don't think this one is a good one. Even if it as most episodes got some highlights.


I so prefer this Dead man's party. 😉

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3iNEc2JTg[/ame]

 

[MergedLoki]

I think it's 6 of one half dozen of another for me with this episode.

I can go either way. I can see why buffy's friends should sympathise/talk with her etc. but I can also see why they have the right to be pissed off with her.

 

[Abby27]

I think the episode did a great job with balancing both sides. I felt torn between the scoobies and Buffy (as I am sure a lot of people did). My heart went out to Buffy, she had it rough but I like how Xander gave her some tough love and asserted himself and Willow to make Buffy listen to them. And Giles' expression during the whole thing was great!

 

[PassionBecoming]

This episode ticked me off, too, but it was pretty much because of everyone. Buffy WAS irresponsible for taking off like that, even if there were "circumstances". Joyce had a right to freak out when Buffy told her what she was, but again, she was floating in denial-land and needed to get over it. She had no right to blame Giles when she is the one who was ignoring everything going on with her daughter's life. (Blood on her clothes, out at all hours, bruises, staking a vampire right in front of her...). The Scoobies had a right to be upset about her taking off, but I think they just didn't want to deal with their emotions when she got back. "Oh, let's throw a big, huge party because Buffy would like that" was really "Let's invite a bunch of strangers to Buffy's so we don't actually have to deal with this situation." Yeah, that worked well, guys.

 

[TeamSunnydale]

I don't really like this episode. They're all mean to Buffy. I was especially shocked at Joyce. But in a little way, it reminded me of Joyce's reaction when they thought that Buffy killed Ted. Am I alone in that one?

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It seems to me like everybody thought that just because Buffy was the slayer, she shouldn't have taken off. Like if she was a regular person, it was okay to freak out. But she has a job that no one else in the would does, and she's kinda stuck. It's like she can't freak out, she can't leave, she just must stay there to do her job. I hate thinking that, and I don't know if I'm right. But Buffy is a person, not just a slayer. She should have some time off because her life is hell sometimes, and I get the feelings that her friends don't really undertand that completely. They don't know what it's like to be a slayer. No one does. Buffy was under a huge perssure that no one else does. Not them, not the entire world. It was really unfair, and I just don't think they get her enough. They say they do, they're her friends. But don't really get into Buffy's head sometimes. She's kinda alone and lonely. Because no one else in the world has that big of a pressure as she does. No one else is the slayer.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

It seems to me like everybody thought that just because Buffy was the slayer, she shouldn't have taken off. Like if she was a regular person, it was okay to freak out. But she has a job that no one else in the would does, and she's kinda stuck. It's like she can't freak out, she can't leave, she just must stay there to do her job. I hate thinking that, and I don't know if I'm right. But Buffy is a person, not just a slayer. She should have some time off because her life is hell sometimes, and I get the feelings that her friends don't really undertand that completely. They don't know what it's like to be a slayer. No one does. Buffy was under a huge perssure that no one else does. Not them, not the entire world. It was really unfair, and I just don't think they get her enough. They say they do, they're her friends. But don't really get into Buffy's head sometimes. She's kinda alone and lonely. Because no one else in the world has that big of a pressure as she does. No one else is the slayer.

I agree. After all, she's only a person. With feelings. Among those feelings, regular ones I mean, there are feelings that none of us have like - saving the world. Sure, we all have some kinds of saving, but here, we're talking about actual world and the whole humanity. I don't remember people freaking out that much when Angel disappeared after he found out about Buffy's death.

 

[Abby27]

I agree. After all, she's only a person. With feelings. Among those feelings, regular ones I mean, there are feelings that none of us have like - saving the world. Sure, we all have some kinds of saving, but here, we're talking about actual world and the whole humanity. I don't remember people freaking out that much when Angel disappeared after he found out about Buffy's death.

I think the big difference with Angel taking off was that first of all, he was an "adult" so if up and decides to leave, he has the right. Second, Wes and all of them knew where he was and why he was there. Buffy was a minor and even though she is the slayer, legally she had no right to run away from home without her mother's permission. And the big thing was that by Anne, everyone assumed Buffy ran away and would be found when she wanted to be but before that, they didn't even know if she was dead or alive. She was just gone.

And I totally get that she is the slayer and no one could truly empathize with what she was going through, running away was fundementally selfish. Again, it's not as if I didn't have any sympathy for her, what she must have felt like must have been so difficult to deal with. And to want some time alone to cope is understandable, but to completely up and leave without any consideration for her friends and how they would react is still her focusing only on her pain and not how her friends must have felt as well.

So again, I sympathize with Buffy, but ultimately, I think Xander, Joyce etc. had a right to lay into her the way they did.