Question - Dead Man's Party

Librarian83

I panicked.
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Black Thorn
I think I may make a habit of asking questions each time I re-watch an episode! I absolutely love reading opinions about certain topics within the show.

QUESTION:

Do you think the Scooby gang reacted too harshly during the party scene when things came to verbal blows between them? Do you think Joyce overreacted at all? Giles was the only one that didn't yell at her, I think...

Thanks for participating!

((Edit: I'm going to leave this but I see there is an official episode discussion! Sorry if I clogged up the posting.))
 
Reason: Realization!
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I think it was wrong for them to all gang up on Buffy when none of them knew why she left and what occurred leading up to that. It was a too harsh a reaction and an over-reaction. In their minds Buffy had no right to go away for a time to deal with the whole thing. It was not like they were who she could confide in about all the trauma she suffered and to do it right in front of the party guests was low. It was a conversation to be had in private. After all, Buffy has saved so many lives and before she left saved the world for the umpteenth time. Not to mention Buffy believed that she couldn’t go back home after Joyce told her not to even think about coming back if she left.
Buffy felt like she couldn’t stay with of her friends even. I think the only one Buffy could have talked to about it was Giles.
 
Honestly this is probably the group confrontation scene I have the least sympathy for the other side. I admit I’m bias in these kind of scenes but I can usually see where the other side is coming from and their perspective. The problem I have with this one is the absolutely staggering lack of empathy and perspective from everyone else. Like they have every right to be angry at her leaving but there’s just no way that should take priority over someone clearly going through a boatload of trauma. Plus it’s not like it’s a confrontation that achieves anything. It doesn’t make Buffy realise she has a safe space where she can confide in someone. It actually just pushes her further into her ‘I’m feeling something but I’ll keep it to myself as it’s easier that way’ bubble that she tends to keep herself in. Buffy then spends most of the next half of the season very much on the outskirts of the scoobies and Giles is basically the only one who manages to get even the smallest amount of discussion about what happened out of her - no coincidence that Giles is of course the only one who doesn’t make it entirely about himself

I find Willow’s argument in this episode genuinely bizarre to be honest. Particularly when she says ‘I just want you to talk to me’.
Except Buffy actually spends the whole episode trying to talk to her, Willow stands her up and then pretends she can’t hear her. So WTF Willow? You’re just blatantly gaslighting at this point. I get the writers were going for ‘Buffy isn’t the only one going through stuff’ which ok fair but Willow pointing out she has a boyfriend she wanted to talk about. Except even if she’d stayed in Sunnydale is Buffy really going to be wanting to talk about boyfriend stuff when she’s literally just had to essentially kill her boyfruend? Like read the room Willow 😂 like Willow get a grip and call up Amy who’ll probably be happy to discuss your relationship and who actually knows more about your magic exploration than Buffy anyway. Perspective guys

Joyce is genuinely terrible. Yes she regretted what she said but it can’t be ignored that she DID say it. She told her child she wouldn’t be welcome home and Joyce absolutely needs to take responsibility for that. It’s even more staggering when she then whitewashes herself with ‘well guess what Moms not perfect’ ok so you’re giving yourself space for mistakes but none for your 17 year old daughter? Ok Joyce, that’s a choice

This might be my most hated episode to be honey 😂
 
I'll often skip much or all of this ep on rewatches...only the zombie aspect really make it worth watching to me (though Buffy first entering Giles' apartment was nice).

I'm mostly bothered all the way through (and another question on how crosses work when Xander's "cross armor" didn't seem to do much for him). So she's cleared for murder...she still severely assaulted police officers. And given the murder in the library along with major damage and injuries, I don't think even a cover up by the police and Watchers (both which I can easily believe with a little head canon, including on why those chose not to prosecute over resisting arrest and assault on police), I'd think the entire school would be buzzing about it, enough to not mistake it for a girl out of rehab (especially as it sounded like the ones who said that probably did time in rehab himself), though I try to think of them as "new arrivals."


This is one where Xander really ticks me off dismissing it as "boy troubles." Even he's not that thick (that it was an aspect, sure, but more went on as he well knew, and I headcanon that his own guilt over the lie also made him project his own self-loathing into Buffy and Angel so he could, for a moment, hate someone other than himself), and attacking in front of everyone...well he'd know what that's like, I would presume, given his family. And flaws aside, he's usually better than to do so that openly.

But for me, Willow is more infuriating for her gaslighting about "wanting you to talk to me." (That ending was amusing, but Willow was way too self-righteous.) I know why my upbringing makes it that I prefer open conflict to gaslighting and unrelenting passive aggressive hostility, but that is neither here nor there, just why I get angrier with Willow, and even the adult Joyce (not that I'm giving Xander and Joyce a pass here).


Though I try to understand Joyce's point of view and blame Pat, she really went off in front of all those people that I'd think she'd know better than...especially if she was going to tolerate that party in her home, which I don't see. I've invented head canon for why Joyce did allow it (essentially out of desperation to keep Buffy around by not being too strict this time, but hating it which exacerbated her anger, and projecting her own guilt, with Pat and booze also exacerbating that), but it feels off to me to begin with. If she was really that drunk then I'd see her kicking everyone else out first, but that wouldn't be as dramatic for the viewer (which makes it doubly annoying as a sense of contrivance creeps in on top of everything else).


Story wise, I hate it. I hate the writing, and it does make it painful and angering to watch. In some ways it felt downright contrived (though not season 7 level of contrivance), I swear they must teach "always have the protagonist dogpiled by everyone somewhere in the movie or season and then overcome it" in film school. It's a tired trope, and one I wish Joss would've subverted more as he did some (but far from all) tropes.

It also feels incongruous to me that they're fighting nightmares given form on a regular basis and yet act like a soap opera of mundane high school drama. At least for some, it should've been more "dereliction of duty" (not to say it would be less infuriating, but it wouldn't feel so...tropish...so like that the monsters and horrors they fight aren't actually real, as if that were all a role playing game than real life so that they can focus on this teen soap opera aspect).

Again I hate the ep because of that...on the other hand, I hate Pat (who I've met real life examples of who do a lot of deliberate damage under the guise of caring) so much more than sometimes I will endure it just to see Pat (imagining her as people so like her that I've known) killed twice. Which means I'm not a saint, either.
 
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I think it was wrong that they couldn't wait more than a day after Buffy returned before lodging their complaints with her, she's been missing for months and they were apparently worried about her and missing her but now she's back Willow's bailing on Buffy in the middle of town and they all plan a huge party just to avoid talking to Buffy.

Also, they invited like 40 people and a band over to Joyce's house without telling her. That's rude in the first place even if they weren't using the party to avoid having a small dinner with Buffy.
 
Right, it's not a relatable episode. The audience knows what Buffy has went through, the Scoobies do not. Nobody is taking, everyone is out of character. Plus we already learned this lesson in "Don't Walk Away From Me Bitch" "I only have eyes for you." Forgiveness is really important.

I do like to think that a lot of this is the Scoobies not being as emotionally attached to Buffy as they were a season ago, and went an entire summer being freed of her drama.

Crosses never make sense. But, this one makes a little more sense. Holy items work in the old tales, because they ward off all evil spirits, vampires included. Giles no doubt carves his crosses from olive wood obtained from a tree from the garden of gethsemane, inscribes them with runes using a sacramental spear, then gets them blessed using the old rite by an elderly priest who owes the Watcher a life debt. Xander probably made his in shop class.
 
T
thrasherpix
I liked your cross-lore. They should incorporate that into crossbows, to make vampires retreat so you can shoot them!
Yes, they obviously all reacted like complete idiots. None of them thought of getting Buffy one on one and asking her about what had happened. They all seemed more concerned with feeling bad about themselves and taking Buffy's disappearance as a personal slight.

I blame Joyce the most because she was the adult there and Buffy was her daughter. It wasn't the first time she acted terribly as a mother and not the last. In comparison, Giles was exemplary: he welcomed her back and, later, sought to find out what had gone down at the mansion. He was as tactful as one could be in that context. He wanted to understand but he also didn't want to push or hurt Buffy.

As for Buffy's friends, they obviously didn't know about what had truly went down with Angel/Angelus, but I still never understood why they took Buffy leaving so personal. They had known Buffy for a while by that point. They knew how strong and capable she was. How could they not surmise that something really traumatic had happened for Buffy to leave? Shame on Willow and Xander in particular. Oh, and boo hoo at them for crying over the fact that they had to do 1/10 of Buffy's job for a few months.

Every time the group ganged-up on Buffy in the show, they did it in the stupidest way possible and they always looked like ungrateful idiots. And, no, I'm not counting the scene in the library when Xander talks shit to Buffy, because they were in the right that time, and aside from Xander they were mature about it. 😉
 
I always think about how Xander, Willow and Oz risked their lives night after night all summer and fighting vampires, how Buffy saw this first-hand when she found them out patrolling and later how she made fun of Xander for it. Like, wow.

Sure, the Scoobs didn't handle things the best way, they didn't have all the information and felt abandoned by their friend and then they let that resentment spill out when Joyce went off at the party (because Buffy looked like she was running off again)....
...but Buffy knew that they put their lives in danger all summer doing her job and it doesn't even register that she should maybe care about that.

Basically put; the Scoobs showed a lack of understanding and empathy towards Buffy because they were angry with her. Buffy showed lack of empathy towards her friends because she wanted to go back to the way things were before I guess.
 
My issue with the episode/confrontation is that both Willow and Xander do have legitimate reasons to be upset with Buffy and deserve to be able to be upfront with the fact that they were upset that their friend didn’t even have the curtesy to let them know that she was alive. However instead of this we get stuff like Willow complaining that Buffy wasn’t there to gossip about her new boyfriend and Xander with his stupid line about about how most girls don’t hop on a bus over boy trouble. It makes them appear really immature and emotionally unintelligent.

Joyce doesn’t get any sympathy from me she’s an adult and she expects a teenager to have more emotional intelligence than her.
 
I specifically take issue with Xander because in so many group confrontation scenes, it feels like he's just inserting himself into someone else's argument. Buffy is having a moment with Joyce, who walked in on her and Willow, and then Xander decides his grievances are just as important and he needs to bring it up right now. He can't just let Joyce and Buffy work things out, he can't just wait until later to ask Willow happened upstairs, because it's his turn to talk even though it's not at all helpful. It's so self-centered and also throws off the flow of the argument, and, when this happens, we're usually supposed to at least partially agree with him. It's really annoying because Xander is a character who simultaneously is the butt of every joke but also can't ever be truly wrong.

Other than that, though, I think this argument serves a really important purpose. It feels very natural, and I do understand why everyone is upset with Buffy. It's not fair, but I get it. It is an overreaction, but it's a very well written one, and my favorite scenes in Buffy are always the ones where relationships are falling apart in a way that feels real. I just think the writers always jump the gun a little with adding Xander into these fights. It felt like he was fighting with Buffy just because everyone else was fighting with Buffy, which is a consistent problem for him.
 
I specifically take issue with Xander because in so many group confrontation scenes, it feels like he's just inserting himself into someone else's argument. Buffy is having a moment with Joyce, who walked in on her and Willow, and then Xander decides his grievances are just as important and he needs to bring it up right now. He can't just let Joyce and Buffy work things out, he can't just wait until later to ask Willow happened upstairs, because it's his turn to talk even though it's not at all helpful. It's so self-centered and also throws off the flow of the argument, and, when this happens, we're usually supposed to at least partially agree with him. It's really annoying because Xander is a character who simultaneously is the butt of every joke but also can't ever be truly wrong.

Other than that, though, I think this argument serves a really important purpose. It feels very natural, and I do understand why everyone is upset with Buffy. It's not fair, but I get it. It is an overreaction, but it's a very well written one, and my favorite scenes in Buffy are always the ones where relationships are falling apart in a way that feels real. I just think the writers always jump the gun a little with adding Xander into these fights. It felt like he was fighting with Buffy just because everyone else was fighting with Buffy, which is a consistent problem for him.
To put it plainly, I think Xander had some resentment toward Buffy in the early seasons and he never confronted her one on one to express that resentment, so when there would be group fights, he would use the opportunity (Buffy being criticized by others) to jump in and let out some of that anger. Like you said, on those occasions, while some of what he said to Buffy was understandable, he did it in the worst way possible, showing little to no compassion or understanding toward her. Giving her no benefit of the doubt.

I think most of that had to do with him not being very mature at the time. Also, not to give him excuses, but I think most of that bottled up anger had nothing to do with Buffy, and more so with his parents and how he was treated at school.

Honestly, now that I know you are on your first watch, I don't wanna bring up the future seasons. But let me just say that Xander's relationship with Buffy is complex and there are ups and downs. I think the issues are more so on Xander's side, though, as Buffy really always loved him like he was her brother.
 
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