Deconstructing Angel

[Kana]

Right I know there are a lot of threads on the broody one but I was really trying understand his character, more centred on the Angel/Angelus dichotomy.

Now this isn't a 'Vs' thread but I'll reference Spike and others merely for comparison.

Now I wanted to address a few issues that have plagued my mind ever since the televised show ended. I apologize if this is incoherent but hey...

1. "Liam is a jerk so therefore Angelus is the worst vampire ever to exist"

The problem with this is that by the same logic Liam would have to be the worst human being ever to exist. From what we see I wouldn't say that's true. For most part, when he was growing up he was a nice polite young man. Who knows, if he had a better relationship with his parents, like William, he may have not become the drunken whoring layabout we see in most of the flashbacks.

Of course he didn't have the best relationship with his father. Now I'm not blaming his father, as he most likely thought he was trying to steer his son in the right direction. However he did this by finding fault in everything he did and rather than being supporting and loving, he was cold and autocratic. Was this normal child rearing at the time in Ireland? I'm not sure but Liam certainly didn't respond well to it. His frustration came from the fact that his bullying father, has also done his share of sinning.

Even as a vampire (Spin The Bottle) Liam is awkward at best and is a reluntant killer. His actions come out rebellious spite although (like Spike) he does enjoy the power that vampirism gives him, but with a soul he's not a sadistic killer.

This causes a problem. If we take the Gorch brothers, they killed even before they got a soul, yet neither one of them reached the notoriety that Angelus reached so how can relatively normal Liam become the worst vampire in the world and two mass murdering humans become a couple of shempires? I've always stated we shouldn't judge the vampire by the preceeding human and vice versa and I think this is good example of the unpredictability of the siring process and vampirism itself.

Of course we know that Liam became a womanizing drunkard but still, he wasn't really doing much harm. He was just a somewhat self-involved kid getting back at his father. I've struggled to find a bar without one of those in there, hell even I was one of those kids to a degree. So if Liam isn't the evil sociopath akin to Angelus then why did his base personality provide what was needed to create on of the vampire legends...

2. The Evil Of Angelus

Ok so why is Angelus such a bastard? We know that he was haunted by his father's disapproval. So he made something of himself as a vampire. He became the worst vampire ever recorded, but does Angelus lack feeling? Clearly not. He seemed emotionally driven to kill his father and he clearly had feelings for Buffy, as Willow noted, she was still the only one he thought about.

However for Angelus, evil was a belief system. He believed in it, unlike Spike who loved causing havoc for fun but didn't much think about his victims. While it would seem that sadism is an inherent part of Liam’s potential, it’s not the only part…

It would seem that Angelus’ evil and creativity are linked. He’s not merely a brute, he’s an artist making a name for himself, expressing his evil in creative and innovative ways. It’s not simply that he’s the worst, he’s the most infamous and successful, as much as an evil vampire can be.

3. Ugh, so are Angel and Angelus the same person?

Now when I used to debate on the other forums, many would debate whether Angel or Angelus were the same person. Many Angel supporters were Theory 1 supporters, that is to say they would say that the soul the spirit of a person and that that goes when someone is vamped. This convenient in several ways. For one thing there definitely is such thing as a spirit in the Verse. There are ghosts, people swap bodies etc.

It’s also convenient for Angel supporters because Angelus is presented as a separate person. The vampire is the demon and the soul is the human spirit. The demon is like a vampire copy of preceding human, like an evil twin if you will who happens to believe they are that person. Angel didn’t torture Buffy, Angelus did. Angel didn’t drive Drusilla insane, Angelus did.

This is actually supported in the show by Giles, Wesley and the WC.

In Spike vs. Angel threads it has the side benefit of taking away the glory of Spike getting a soul for Buffy, as it wasn’t him who went through the trials, it was the demon. Under this theory, SoulledSpike is no more responsible for getting his soul back than Angel is.

Theory 2 is a little more popular these days: The soul is nothing more than a conscience. Again better for Spike fans and a little incontinent for Angel fans. This means Angel was the one who did the horrible things to Buffy but at least he did it without a conscience. All the sadism, heroism, darkness and light are all part of Liam’s personality but soul brings out the good and absence of that soul bring out the bad of course spurred on by the demon.

Now this still doesn’t explain why Angel and Angelus seem so different (well more so than the other vampire/human soul dichotomies we’ve seen, yes Spike I’m looking at you) and also why Angelus would remember stuff that Angel wouldn’t. I was thinking about it and I think there is a way to keep theory 2 intact and also the idea that Angel and Angelus are indeed separate.

In a weird way Angel may have a form of DID (Dissociative identity disorder).. I’m not saying the are actually are two entities but perhaps two identities who share memories to a degree but are separate psychological personalities.

It could be that morality was categorized in a very black and white way to Liam, and despite his rebellion, like most sons, he partly internalized it. As Doug Sanders pointed out in Disharmony, most, if not all vampires have ‘ghosts’ of the human lives that are always prevalent. It can be past feelings and emotions that get in the way of their evil doing. Angelus managed to suppress this successfully (Doug would have loved him as a guest speaker), however as Angel the trauma and shock of past sins, fragmented his persona. Most have a potential for darkness or what many consider dark. Even the mere concept of evil, can arise in our minds but our constraints, socially or morally hold us back, but without this we are free to explore these thoughts and allow them to become actions. This darkness has a manifestation in Angel as Angelus. Angelus always has to good in him and I think this explains Orpheus. Even if Angel and Angelus are separate entities, Angel wouldn’t have been there when he began helping Faith. I’m one of the fringe theorists who believe that even inside Angelus, the ‘ghost’ Angel’s or Liam’s heroism resides.

In short, I’d go with theory 2 but with Angel having a form of disassociation which may not be deliberate. I see it more as a psychological ailment rather than a weakness or a sign of Liam/Angel inherent badness. Vampirism or siring is profound psychological event that can have a variety of often unexpected effects on the individual being vamped. It can turn the chaste into the sexual, it can turn the hero into the villain, it can turn Harmony into, well, Harmony but with fangs. While all vampires manifest differently with distinct personalities and while these are often based upon the preceding human it can still affect them in different ways, so we shouldn’t be so quick as to judge soulled being against the soulless being and vice versa. This also keeps Bangel fans happy as Angelus’ obsession doesn’t lessen or undermine Angel’s love for Buffy. It simply means his other persona’s feelings cannot manifest in a positive way.

So guys any thoughts? What is going on in that mind of his?

 

[white avenger]

(I'll skip #1 & 2, if nobody minds, and get to the fun one)


3. Ugh, so are Angel and Angelus the same person?


Since the soul and its qualities and limitations has never been definitely defined in the Buffyverse, but it has been illustrated in both Angel and Spike as consisting most notably as an almost overwhelming sense of guilt, so powerful that it actually causes a degree of insanity in the first stage of acclimation, and an eventual desire to somehow atone for the pain and suffering that the person, without the soul, had committed. I've never been able to actually accept the idea of Angelus and Angel being two separate beings, and Angelus actually told Faith roughly the same thing in, I believe, "Calvary" in ATS Season 4. Wherever Angel goes, whatever he does, Angelus is there, just beneath the surface, just waiting for the opportunity to return. Indeed, we might actually have seen things that would affirm that on such occasions as when Angel locked the Board members in the conference room with Dru and Darla, when he attacked Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor into the hell dimension, and when he ordered Lorne to murder Lindsey. Those were things that Angel, the hero, the aspiring champion, the helper of the helpless, would never have done. But Angelus would have, and laughed while doing them. The soul allows the Angel personality to restrain the Angelus personality, but both men coexist within one single body.

Soulless vampires CAN do good, CAN love, CAN desire to be accepted by humans, and CAN restrain themselves from killing. Pre Season 7 Spike proved that, whether because of the chip or because of his growing feelings for Buffy and her family, or a combination of the two. Angelus just never desired to, or at least not enough to actually do it. Comparing Angelus' soul to Spike's chip is most certainly an oversimplification, but it does illustrate that the demon can be restrained, because both men did it, and both men lost control of their respective demons on occasion. But Angel, as well as Spike, managed to do exactly what most of us do. We control the "demon" that urges us to take whatever we want, to ignore the wishes or welfare of others if they interfere with what we happen to want at the moment, or any of the many "bad" things that we could do, but we don't. Like the immortal Captain James Tiberius Kirk once explained, man is a natural born predator. A blood thirsty killer. But our soul gives us the strength and resolve tto say, "Yes, but I won't kill. Today. Tomorrow, I'll have to face that battle again, but for today, I won't kill."

Making the distinction between Angelus and Angel, while making little fi any such distinction for Spike, with and without a soul, seems contradictory, and actually, I think, really is. Angel IS Angelus. But he's not going to kill. Today. That's what makes him a hero.

 

[Bungle Jerry]

Well, if we see the character as having a dissociative identity, I might argue that it was in fact intentionaly - that it's something the character repeatedly does:

* When he's turned by Darla, he destroys his family and his village in an attempt to wipe away his previous life.
* Upon returning from 100 years in hell, he pretty much never talks about it again, never dwells.

The aberration here is ensouled Angel in China trying desperately to cling onto his previous life. But once he's at Ellis Island, I think we see the same thing again: throwing away the script and starting again. Spike never makes any attempt to do that. Human William becomes Vamp William and the first thing he does is try to maintain a connection with his past. He gets his soul back and then immediately returns to Sunnydale - he wanted his soul back explicitly to maintain his relationship with Buffy. William has an attraction to his own past that Liam/Angelus/Angel wholly lacks. It's entirely possible that dissociating one persona from another in his mind was his personal defence mechanism for dealing with the guilt of what he did as Angelus. And thus viewing Angelus and Angel as two entities is less a reflectio nof the reality of the soul in the Buffyverse than a reflection of his own rationalisation: how he sees it, rather than how it is. In true multiple personality cases, one personality can definitely fight with another lie we see in Orpheus. Maybe something similar is happening here.

 

[GrrArghx]

I've always just thought of Angel in this way:

It's Liam's body with the demon in it (Angelus) and the soul (Angel). They both share the same brain which is why they have the same memories and it also supports the reason why when the soul is returned it takes a few moments for Angel to remember what happened. (Save Orpheus which, while it's a great episode, kind of makes the whole thing a bit confusing)

That's just how I've always viewed it.

I did just watch S2 and so it's freshest in my mind but there the difference between Angel and Angelus is like... amazing, lol.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Nice post, Kana.

Indeed, we might actually have seen things that would affirm that on such occasions as when Angel locked the Board members in the conference room with Dru and Darla, when he attacked Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor into the hell dimension, and when he ordered Lorne to murder Lindsey. Those were things that Angel, the hero, the aspiring champion, the helper of the helpless, would never have done. But Angelus would have, and laughed while doing them

I find those first two things perfectly understandable and not Angelus-y. Am I evil? 🙁 If he had helped the lawyers, they probably would have just gone back to their offices on the next business day and continued Muahaha-ing at him. He would have nommed on them with Dru and Darla if there was any Angelus there.


Attacking Wesley isn't an Angelus move either because he was overwhelmed with grief.

Comparing Angelus' soul to Spike's chip is most certainly an oversimplification,

It also doesn't make sense.

 

[white avenger]

Quote:
Comparing Angelus' soul to Spike's chip is most certainly an oversimplification,

It also doesn't make sense.

It does in the context in which I was using it. Angel's having a soul was the factor that kept him from killing. Spike's chip performed the same function. I'm not trying to say that the chip was the equivalent of a soul, simply that it was as much a deterrent, if not more so, as Angel's remorse, regret, and shame at what he had done. It's like putting a leash on one dog and teaching another to heel on command. One is a physical restraint while the other is the desire of the dog to please its master. Each different in method, but the same in function.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This is, like, the best thread ever. I'll be back...

*subscribes*

 

[King of Hell]

Quote:
Comparing Angelus' soul to Spike's chip is most certainly an oversimplification,

It also doesn't make sense.

It does in the context in which I was using it. Angel's having a soul was the factor that kept him from killing. Spike's chip performed the same function. I'm not trying to say that the chip was the equivalent of a soul, simply that it was as much a deterrent, if not more so, as Angel's remorse, regret, and shame at what he had done. It's like putting a leash on one dog and teaching another to heel on command. One is a physical restraint while the other is the desire of the dog to please its master. Each different in method, but the same in function.

its not the same funtion, Spike never wanted to change, at first he did it for the money, or to save his own ass, he only changed after he fell in love with Buffy, & he did all those things for selfish reasons. Angel does all those things out of his desire to be a good person, Spike followed this path & became a good man for the greater good in Ats S5.
so if you give any other vampire a chip, he'd stay at his crypt, either buying blood, or if you chip Angelus, he'd have his minions kill for him. sure Angelus would go crazy without the artistic torture, but he has no other choice. Angelus would never decide to change.

anyway, to answer to the topic, Angel & Angelus are like Black & White, two extremes on two different sides of the scale. Angelus is the greatest vampire that ever lived, even though he was soulless for a century & some change, that's it. & Angel is one of the greatest champions that ever lived (he has centuries old prophecies written about him, & about his son).
I think his past crimes are the reason, NOBODY in the world has done what he did, he was the greatest mass murderer that ever lived, Spike got over it because he either fights for fun or kills to feed, Angelus is different that all other evil things, the first evil said it, "you take more kinds of pleasure in killing than any other creature I've known". so if he one day opens his eyes & sees what he did, & then care, he'd go crazy. Spike spent 3 weeks in the basement, Angel spent a century, & 25 years of it were in alleyways eating rats.

 

[Kana]

First of all thank you for all your replies and I'll try my best to address all points made.

Since the soul and its qualities and limitations has never been definitely defined in the Buffyverse, but it has been illustrated in both Angel and Spike as consisting most notably as an almost overwhelming sense of guilt, so powerful that it actually causes a degree of insanity in the first stage of acclimation, and an eventual desire to somehow atone for the pain and suffering that the person, without the soul, had committed.

As the lack of definition of the soul, I absolutely agree. I tend to look at the most popular definitions and because we cannot be entirely sure, I have to admit both theories, but it certainly seems to true that the vampires in question have a sense of continued consciousness.

I've never been able to actually accept the idea of Angelus and Angel being two separate beings, and Angelus actually told Faith roughly the same thing in, I believe, "Calvary" in ATS Season 4. Wherever Angel goes, whatever he does, Angelus is there, just beneath the surface, just waiting for the opportunity to return.

This is actually ambiguous. Is Angelus the being fighting for control of Angel's body or is he the representation of Angel's dark side, or maybe a little of both. Of course Angelus can only manifest as a result of Liam's base personality, but we still have to address two things, one is why is the chasm between Angel and Angelus so large and also does actually represent the control with some one like Spike beings the exception or is it actually Angel who the unique one in this respect?

Indeed, we might actually have seen things that would affirm that on such occasions as when Angel locked the Board members in the conference room with Dru and Darla, when he attacked Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor into the hell dimension, and when he ordered Lorne to murder Lindsey.

As it's been said, already, these were human acts, acts which Angelus would barely care about. Also don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Angel aside from Angelus is infallible, Liam was also flawed but I'm attempting to bridge the gap between do gooder vampire who sometimes makes mistakes but appears to care about mankind on a larger scale to totally sociopathic vampire who appear to lack any empathy towards mankind.

Those were things that Angel, the hero, the aspiring champion, the helper of the helpless, would never have done. But Angelus would have, and laughed while doing them. The soul allows the Angel personality to restrain the Angelus personality, but both men coexist within one single body.

As above. Angelus would have killed Wes and would happily kill a bunch of lawyers, however his reasons for doing it would be vastly different and this is the point.

Soulless vampires CAN do good, CAN love, CAN desire to be accepted by humans, and CAN restrain themselves from killing. Pre Season 7 Spike proved that, whether because of the chip or because of his growing feelings for Buffy and her family, or a combination of the two. Angelus just never desired to, or at least not enough to actually do it

.

One of my aims in this thread is to answer the why? Why would Angelus be so unfeeling? This is why I the first two parts of the original post are important because I'm attempting to address why Angelus would be so cold when Liam isn't all that bad and Angel is not just an ok guy but a champion.

Comparing Angelus' soul to Spike's chip is most certainly an oversimplification, but it does illustrate that the demon can be restrained, because both men did it, and both men lost control of their respective demons on occasion.

Interestingly enough the two teens who shouldn't exist, make this comparison. Dawn argues that Spike's chip serves the same if not a similar function to Angel's soul. And Connor talks about how Angel is something Angelus is forced to wear and the real persona is Angelus, only an Angelus restrained. As you've correctly stated, the soul is ill defined so Spike's chip may in a behavioral way serve a similar function. While Spike was able to love before, it never inspired him to do deeds human would consider noble. David Fury's days of being a soul purist though are understandable, if the soul is not important then why make such a hoo haa about Angel having one and Spike getting one. The statement that Spike got a soul because he knew it was th right thing to do, seems almost contradictory if the soul is a conscience.

But Angel, as well as Spike, managed to do exactly what most of us do. We control the "demon" that urges us to take whatever we want, to ignore the wishes or welfare of others if they interfere with what we happen to want at the moment, or any of the many "bad" things that we could do, but we don't. Like the immortal Captain James Tiberius Kirk once explained, man is a natural born predator. A blood thirsty killer. But our soul gives us the strength and resolve tto say, "Yes, but I won't kill. Today. Tomorrow, I'll have to face that battle again, but for today, I won't kill."

But what of his darkness? For Faith for example, it's anger, self-loathing and lack of trust for others or herself. When Angel talks about the demon, what is he referring to? Angelus? His bloodlust and demon physiology? Or his sense of personal darkness?

Making the distinction between Angelus and Angel, while making little fi any such distinction for Spike, with and without a soul, seems contradictory, and actually, I think, really is. Angel IS Angelus. But he's not going to kill. Today. That's what makes him a hero.

Well no one is arguing metaphysical differences. In fact in many threads I've created in regards to the soul and vampire, I've always maintained that, at least metaphysically Spike and Angel are the same. I've always looked at the psychological differences between our vampires. Clearly we all know there are differences, but I'm trying to get at why the differences arise.

The aberration here is ensouled Angel in China trying desperately to cling onto his previous life. But once he's at Ellis Island, I think we see the same thing again: throwing away the script and starting again. Spike never makes any attempt to do that. Human William becomes Vamp William and the first thing he does is try to maintain a connection with his past. He gets his soul back and then immediately returns to Sunnydale - he wanted his soul back explicitly to maintain his relationship with Buffy. William has an attraction to his own past that Liam/Angelus/Angel wholly lacks. It's entirely possible that dissociating one persona from another in his mind was his personal defence mechanism for dealing with the guilt of what he did as Angelus. And thus viewing Angelus and Angel as two entities is less a reflectio nof the reality of the soul in the Buffyverse than a reflection of his own rationalisation: how he sees it, rather than how it is. In true multiple personality cases, one personality can definitely fight with another lie we see in Orpheus. Maybe something similar is happening here.

Well I did say it was a possibility that it was intentional, but if we accept that say Angel loves Buffy, he wouldn't intentionlly hurt her right? So why does this desire disappear when he would change to Angelus? Also Angel's initial memory loss is something we should look at in terms of the re ensoulment. I agree it's a defence mechanism but I don't know how deliberate it is. It may have started out that way but I think his mind is so fragmented, he's lost control. Unless Jasmine implanted the memories of the Beast inside Angel's mind after his moments of desoulment, there is something, somewhat complicated going on in that mind of his.

It's Liam's body with the demon in it (Angelus) and the soul (Angel). They both share the same brain which is why they have the same memories and it also supports the reason why when the soul is returned it takes a few moments for Angel to remember what happened. (Save Orpheus which, while it's a great episode, kind of makes the whole thing a bit confusing)

It seems as though you'r supporting theory 1 in way, no?

Comparing Angelus' soul to Spike's chip is most certainly an oversimplification,

It also doesn't make sense.

Well Dawn may appear to be oversimplistic but to prove her wrong we need to define the soul and it's exact function. Soul purists have to see that there is a difference, which as I said, I can understand because otherwise it undermines both Angel and soulledSpike in way. Certainly it would make Spike's soul quest pointless.

It does in the context in which I was using it. Angel's having a soul was the factor that kept him from killing. Spike's chip performed the same function. I'm not trying to say that the chip was the equivalent of a soul, simply that it was as much a deterrent, if not more so, as Angel's remorse, regret, and shame at what he had done. It's like putting a leash on one dog and teaching another to heel on command. One is a physical restraint while the other is the desire of the dog to please its master. Each different in method, but the same in function.

Like I said this is closer to Connor's theory, however fauxCordy's theory that Angel is the real deal and Angelus is merely the demon who tempts him is another. We cannot prove either theory totally wrong.

This is, like, the best thread ever. I'll be back...

*subscribes*

Thank you and I can't wait for your contribution.

its not the same funtion, Spike never wanted to change, at first he did it for the money, or to save his own ass, he only changed after he fell in love with Buffy, & he did all those things for selfish reasons. Angel does all those things out of his desire to be a good person, Spike followed this path & became a good man for the greater good in Ats S5

.

This quote is a soul purist's dream. It also makes sense of the difference between soulledSpike's good deeds and soullessSpike's good deeds. One is of pure altruism the other is a round about way of getting in good graces with Buffy, but can we really call this selfish? The difference is, was Spike doing these things with conditions, like suffering torture at the hands of Glory for example? Can we call this selfish? I don't know, what we can argue is that at the very least, when Spike loves someone, he desires to please them and give them what they want. The problem is, his entire sense of morality is based upon this. If he at least got the insight to see that not having a soul made not human enough for Buffy, we could at least argue that after he got a soul, his love for changed because his world view changed. Whatever the nature of the soul, altruism (tricky subject) and love, I'd say that his journey was partly unconscious. You're right that he gained more a sense of himself in Season 5 of Ats.

anyway, to answer to the topic, Angel & Angelus are like Black & White, two extremes on two different sides of the scale. Angelus is the greatest vampire that ever lived, even though he was soulless for a century & some change, that's it. & Angel is one of the greatest champions that ever lived (he has centuries old prophecies written about him, & about his son).

I said something similar in another thread, yes. Whatever Angel or Angelus, does he has to be great. It wasn't enough for him to simply be an evil vampire, he has to be the worst. It's not eough for him just to be a good guy as a soulled vampire, he has to be a champion and a leader no less.

I think his past crimes are the reason, NOBODY in the world has done what he did, he was the greatest mass murderer that ever lived, Spike got over it because he either fights for fun or kills to feed, Angelus is different that all other evil things, the first evil said it, "you take more kinds of pleasure in killing than any other creature I've known". so if he one day opens his eyes & sees what he did, & then care, he'd go crazy. Spike spent 3 weeks in the basement, Angel spent a century, & 25 years of it were in alleyways eating rats.

I'll actually also think that these elements are linked. Spike has always been more in the moment whereas Angel(us) tends to mull things over, whether it's his evil, his past deeds, or what it means to be a champion. Both ways of doing things have their advantages and disadvantages. However, their circumstances were also different as well.

 

[King of Hell]

This is actually ambiguous. Is Angelus the being fighting for control of Angel's body or is he the representation of Angel's dark side, or maybe a little of both. Of course Angelus can only manifest as a result of Liam's base personality, but we still have to address two things, one is why is the chasm between Angel and Angelus so large and also does actually represent the control with some one like Spike beings the exception or is it actually Angel who the unique one in this respect?

now that you bring up this point, I think Angelus was an exception. a lot of vampires showed us that they can love (Spike, Dru, Darla, The Master, & James) to name a few. the other vampires had some kind of instinctual purpose in killing, The Master wanted to rise & rule, Spike loves to fight, the other vampires just wanted to feed, & Dru was just crazy. Angelus was an exception even to the first evil. so, why is Angelus so different than other vampires? from what I've seen, all the other vampires practically worship him.

one explanation is that he is a promised one, he was mentioned in some prophecies, he was supposed to play a pivotal role in the apocalypse, never mentioned if he was in the good side or evil side. in the comics, W&H showed Angel a vision, that Angel himself was standing with thousands of bodies, NOT Angelus, but Angel. the future isn't written in stone, Angel is the key to tip the scale, whichever side he will fight with, that side will win. Angel used that information & killed himself, & W&H turned back time. so the most evil thing in all universes worship Angel somehow. this could be a reason why he is an exception. of course its just a theory.

to define the soul, we need more references in the show right? from what I remember, there are 2. Lawson who had a part of his soul, & Buffy (in one episode).

Lawson had part of his soul, he never felt guilt, nor he felt pleasure, he felt nothing. he was trapped between who he was, & how a vampire is supposed to be. so from what I see, a soul erases human morality, so if you have part of your soul, its either you lose your morality but keep your human nature, or you keep your morality & lose your human nature.

Buffy's soul was being sucked slowly by a demon in Btvs S4, she began to lose her morality, when she didn't like her roommate, she thought of killing her. so if you don't have a soul, you don't have a sense of morality to stop you from getting what you desire. if you have a soul, then if what you desire is wrong, your sense of morality will stop you.

 

[Kana]

now that you bring up this point, I think Angelus was an exception. a lot of vampires showed us that they can love (Spike, Dru, Darla, The Master, & James) to name a few. the other vampires had some kind of instinctual purpose in killing, The Master wanted to rise & rule, Spike loves to fight, the other vampires just wanted to feed, & Dru was just crazy. Angelus was an exception even to the first evil. so, why is Angelus so different than other vampires? from what I've seen, all the other vampires practically worship him.

Well other vampires are sadistic, as are humans. Drusilla was insane but she was also purposfully sadistic as well (observing her torture of Angel) and also VampWillow, but yes, the question still remains, why is Angelus so unfeeling when his soulled counterpart is so empathetic.

one explanation is that he is a promised one, he was mentioned in some prophecies, he was supposed to play a pivotal role in the apocalypse, never mentioned if he was in the good side or evil side. in the comics, W&H showed Angel a vision, that Angel himself was standing with thousands of bodies, NOT Angelus, but Angel. the future isn't written in stone, Angel is the key to tip the scale, whichever side he will fight with, that side will win. Angel used that information & killed himself, & W&H turned back time. so the most evil thing in all universes worship Angel somehow. this could be a reason why he is an exception. of course its just a theory.

Interesting theory, although we'd need to fill in the gaps as to what exactly he was going to do. His destiny also doesn't explain, the causes of why is so psychologically different...

to define the soul, we need more references in the show right? from what I remember, there are 2. Lawson who had a part of his soul, & Buffy (in one episode).

It was never established that Lawson had a part of his soul or not. Lawson questioned it and Angel dismissed it. We know SoulledSpike sired some vamps, yet at least one, had the connection the darkness and evil that most vampires get, but Lawson seemed to lack.

Lawson had part of his soul, he never felt guilt, nor he felt pleasure, he felt nothing. he was trapped between who he was, & how a vampire is supposed to be. so from what I see, a soul erases human morality, so if you have part of your soul, its either you lose your morality but keep your human nature, or you keep your morality & lose your human nature.

I understand what you mean. Essentially, humans have a least an in built sense of morality (whether they choose to follow it or not) yet most soulless vampires have a connection to evil. Lawson seemed to lack both but we don't know if this was because of some metaphysical abnormality (not unlike a genetic abnormality) or some profound psychological difference, which may be the key to understanding the problem with Angelus.

Buffy's soul was being sucked slowly by a demon in Btvs S4, she began to lose her morality, when she didn't like her roommate, she thought of killing her. so if you don't have a soul, you don't have a sense of morality to stop you from getting what you desire. if you have a soul, then if what you desire is wrong, your sense of morality will stop you

This particular episode seems to support theory 2. My favoured theory.

 

[King of Hell]

Well other vampires are sadistic, as are humans. Drusilla was insane but she was also purposfully sadistic as well (observing her torture of Angel) and also VampWillow, but yes, the question still remains, why is Angelus so unfeeling when his soulled counterpart is so empathetic.

all vampires are sadistic, what I meant was, none of them were even close to Angelus.

Interesting theory, although we'd need to fill in the gaps as to what exactly he was going to do. His destiny also doesn't explain, the causes of why is so psychologically different...

am under the impression that the prophecy won't be fulfilled in this century, they use it as a plot device, to make us see him as a special vampire, a different vampire. I don't even think it would be an interesting plot to see Angel fight that particular apocalypse & then turn human. its a plot device that spawns very interesting arcs. we still don't know how & why he is different. all we know is he is different than other vampires.

It was never established that Lawson had a part of his soul or not. Lawson questioned it and Angel dismissed it. We know SoulledSpike sired some vamps, yet at least one, had the connection the darkness and evil that most vampires get, but Lawson seemed to lack.
I understand what you mean. Essentially, humans have a least an in built sense of morality (whether they choose to follow it or not) yet most soulless vampires have a connection to evil. Lawson seemed to lack both but we don't know if this was because of some metaphysical abnormality (not unlike a genetic abnormality) or some profound psychological difference, which may be the key to understanding the problem with Angelus.

it was never established, but it was implied, Lawson wanted to feed as soon as he was sired, just like Spike's vamps, its their instinct to feed on blood. so its possible that they had a part of their souls. none of this point can be proven, but it can be used to explain what a soul is, it was heavily implied that Lawson had part of his soul.

 

[Kana]

all vampires are sadistic, what I meant was, none of them were even close to Angelus

.

Not all demons and vampires are sadistic by nature. The long to satisfy the nature of demon but the pathological sadism of Angelus or Drusilla is different. Spike or The Master were actually more pragmatic with their evil, but Angelus, the pain was an end in itself.

am under the impression that the prophecy won't be fulfilled in this century, they use it as a plot device, to make us see him as a special vampire, a different vampire. I don't even think it would be an interesting plot to see Angel fight that particular apocalypse & then turn human. its a plot device that spawns very interesting arcs. we still don't know how & why he is different. all we know is he is different than other vampires.

Interesting, although I'm attempting to work on a theory whereby all vampires are unique. They'll have tendancies, as humans often do, but there are differences and abnormalities. There was a Buffyverse fringe theorist, who set about to prove that Spike wasn't the special vampire, everyone made him out to be. They claimed it was actually his circumstances that were sepcial not him, I'll see if I can dig it out.

As for Angel, he's clearly special but we don't that there is a link between his destiny and the chasm between his human and demon side.

it was never established, but it was implied, Lawson wanted to feed as soon as he was sired, just like Spike's vamps, its their instinct to feed on blood. so its possible that they had a part of their souls. none of this point can be proven, but it can be used to explain what a soul is, it was heavily implied that Lawson had part of his soul.

That is true but he never spoke about such a clarity of evil, that Spike, Angelus, Allonna, etc felt. Even if other vampires can feel such a disconnection (indeed we don't know and it's possible Harmony felt it at one point) is unfortunately was only Lawson's question rather than the implication that soulled vampires create partially soulled vampires. My point would be, seen as we're discussing the abnormalities of Angelus, it's possible that other vampires, for whatever reason can deviate from the norm in their behaviour and interaction to the world.

 

[King of Hell]

maybe vampires are like rubber bands.
ok I know you laughed :giggle:, let me finish.
when you pull the rubber band, & then release it, it hits you in the hand & it hurts. but the longer you pull the more hurtful it gets.

very very bad analogy, not close to my point, if a vampire gets so evil that he impresses the first evil, when he gets his soul back he'd be so good that he'd impress the powers. the rubber band hit him hard.

I don't think thats the case with Angel, but it could be.

Interesting, although I'm attempting to work on a theory whereby all vampires are unique. They'll have tendancies, as humans often do, but there are differences and abnormalities. There was a Buffyverse fringe theorist, who set about to prove that Spike wasn't the special vampire, everyone made him out to be. They claimed it was actually his circumstances that were sepcial not him, I'll see if I can dig it out.

Spike never showed me anything to tell me that he was the special vampires, he fell in love, which we had seen in most vampires. he was tortured for Buffy's sake, James was willing die for his loved in in the 17th century, & later in the 21st century, he died for her.
there is 1 thing special about Spike though, he's stronger than vampires his age, he was only 126 by Buffy S4 I think.

 

[King of Hell]

I did a little googling & ran into this:

Audience Member: "I'd like to know what your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel from the other vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel that vampires have human emotions and human attachments. So is that a conscience? And then what separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"

JW: "Um, very little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. So they can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can actually want to do things that will make that person happy in the way they know they would. The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."

source:
Behind the Scenes

 

[Kana]

Yep I've seen that. I actually used it in one of my posts. Being totally honest Joss said the soul is down to plot convenience, it doesn't mean however we cannot form our own theories.

 

[King of Hell]

yeah, the general concrete rule is the loss of human morals, the rest depends on the plot. (eg: Angel says vampires can't love without a soul, yet its been proven by many vampires that they could love, then again its just Angelus who couldn't love, so he cannot understand how the other soulless vampires could love).

 

[Kana]

yeah, the general concrete rule is the loss of human morals, the rest depends on the plot. (eg: Angel says vampires can't love without a soul, yet its been proven by many vampires that they could love, then again its just Angelus who couldn't love, so he cannot understand how the other soulless vampires could love).

The love thing I don't mind because I can say: I don't believe in love at first sight, it's just infatuation. Whereas, you can say, no I was with so and so for 5 years and we fell in love at first sight, because we knew we were each others destiny. So it's subjective. Joss confirmed that Angelus' had feelings for Buffy at a convention once but obviously Angel attaches morality to love, so you can only love if you good and you can't if you're evil. Angel always had feelings for Buffy but wouldn't define it as love without a soul because of the destructive nature of how those feelings manifested.