Definition of Victim

[Kanazaka]

At the end of "Damage" Angel and Spike talk about victims--Dana's victim status, what they think about their past victims, and how they consider themselves to be victims. They make excellent points, but I'm not really sure you can even relate "vampires as victims" to "victims of vampires". It's clear in this scene that both Spike and Angel at least somewhat regret killing the people that they have killed in the past, which is good. Depending on your point of view, they don't need to feel regret, because they weren't in control of their bodies and souls when they killed their victims. Still, it's clear that both Spike and Angel feel guilt, so it's good that they deal with this guilt rather than ignore it. But they can't truly identify with their victims because they didn't witness vampires killing their families. In fact, they as vampires killed their family members (Angelus killed Liam's father, and Spike killed William's mother). And how much are Angel and Spike victims for having become vampires? On the one hand, Liam didn't know that Darla was a vampire when he first met her, and William didn't know that Drusilla was a vampire when he first met her. That, and they were both seduced by these vampire women, and were under their control. So the question becomes, to what degree were they under the vampires' control? If they were totally under their control, then okay, both were victims. But if they had the opportunity to fight back, then one can make the argument that Liam and Spike wanted to become vampires. However, this latter case is probably pure speculation, and Liam and William were indeed victims when they became Angel and Spike. Still, as vampires, I have a bit of trouble accepting that Angel and Spike can truly identify with their victims. They can empathize, sure (as Spike did when Dana attacked him in the basement), but not truly sympathize. And I'll give kudo points to Spike for trying to reason with Dana, and explain her condition to her, rather than killing her. Also, kudo points for accepting the punishment, even though he didn't kill her family. What does everyone else think?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

At the end of "Damage" Angel and Spike talk about victims--Dana's victim status, what they think about their past victims, and how they consider themselves to be victims. They make excellent points, but I'm not really sure you can even relate "vampires as victims" to "victims of vampires".

Great thread topic!

It's clear in this scene that both Spike and Angel at least somewhat regret killing the people that they have killed in the past, which is good. Depending on your point of view, they don't need to feel regret, because they weren't in control of their bodies and souls when they killed their victims. Still, it's clear that both Spike and Angel feel guilt, so it's good that they deal with this guilt rather than ignore it. But they can't truly identify with their victims because they didn't witness vampires killing their families. In fact, they as vampires killed their family members (Angelus killed Liam's father, and Spike killed William's mother).

If Angel lost the burden of the guilt of Angelus' murders for even a moment, he'd lose his soul. Marster's says that Spike manages to get around with a soul by just blaming his murders on Angelus.

And how much are Angel and Spike victims for having become vampires? On the one hand, Liam didn't know that Darla was a vampire when he first met her, and William didn't know that Drusilla was a vampire when he first met her. That, and they were both seduced by these vampire women, and were under their control. So the question becomes, to what degree were they under the vampires' control? If they were totally under their control, then okay, both were victims. But if they had the opportunity to fight back, then one can make the argument that Liam and Spike wanted to become vampires. However, this latter case is probably pure speculation, and Liam and William were indeed victims when they became Angel and Spike.

Even if they did choose to become vamps, which is doubtful, they couldn't have known what that entailed. Even Wes & Giles seemingly don't understand vamps fully, and those two devoted their lives to studying them.

Still, as vampires, I have a bit of trouble accepting that Angel and Spike can truly identify with their victims. They can empathize, sure (as Spike did when Dana attacked him in the basement), but not truly sympathize. And I'll give kudo points to Spike for trying to reason with Dana, and explain her condition to her, rather than killing her. Also, kudo points for accepting the punishment, even though he didn't kill her family. What does everyone else think?

I think you mixed up empathize & sympathize 😉
Anyway, I think Angel could empathize & sympathize since he also lost his "family": Doyle gave his life for Angel, he also lost Cordy & Connor.

Spike did lose his mother to the demon that took over her body, but he's lost less than Dana or Angel

 

[Skytteflickan88]

They're both victims, like I guess most people are, to a certain extent.

Even child molesters can be victims, victims of their own molesting parents, chemical crazyness in the braincells or whatever. Doesn't change the fact that they're predators, but you know, "victim" is a pretty wide term.

As for Angel & Spike being able to really feel their victims pain;

I think Angel has spent a lot more time thinking about the victims and their pain than Spike(who probably functions because of denial, since I think if he really accepted guilt for all he did when souless, he would have been basement-crazy a lot longer).

Neither can of course completely emapthize, what happened to their victims didn't happen to them.

Of course, they've been tortured too, so of course they're not unfamiliar to the concept, but let's not forget, every person is unique, and so is probably their reaction to painful experiences, even if they have been tortured in a similar fashion.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And how much are Angel and Spike victims for having become vampires? So the question becomes, to what degree were they under the vampires' control? What does everyone else think?

This is a great topic I don't think I've discussed on here before.

I'd say that when one is robbed of one's humanity, whether or not it was consentual or not, there is always a victim involved. I'm going to use the analogy of being raped to illustrate my point. If you're underage, and an older man takes advantage of you, regardless of if you "consent" to it, it's still considered rape, correct? I think that these two (Angel and Spike) were young, and didn't know what they were getting into. For instance, in Interview with a Vampire, another great vampire story, Louie turns Claudia partially because he's lonely and wants a friend, but more importantly, he justifies it by convincing himself that he's saving her from dying from the plauge. And she going along, because she doesn't know any better. Later, she ends up resenting Louie for turning her, because being immortal, she can never grow up and have a woman's life and experiences. She's trapped forever in a child's body, but with a woman's mind.

Darla turns Angel because she wants a partner in crime, someone she can train to be a even more efficient killer than herself. Dru turns Spike simply for a mate.

Anyway, my point is that in my opinion, every vampire is a victim. Every one of them was manipulated into giving up their humanity, whether it was by seduction or desperation. I mean, they were not given a manual entitled What It's Like To Be A Vampire. If they had, they probobly wouldn't have gone through with it.

And I think to an extent they can sympathize with their past victims. After all they do have souls. They've both experienced love and loss. Spike has to live with the memory that he killed his own mother, and Angel has to live with much more than that.

 

[hazzard]

i just re-watched this episode and thought about making this exact thread. really great topic.
i love the last lines...
"so were we, once upon a time"
"once upon a time"

i definitely think both angel and spike were victims. they were preyed on, robbed of their humanity, killed and changed forever. they in turn made countless others victims, but i don't think one can forget that they themselves were too.