Definitions

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Allycat

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When discussing another issue in the thread Brainbuster from This Year's Girl I was presented with a problem, that makes discussing things sometimes very difficult, we all seem to have our own definitions to what a soul, a mind, the essence of a slayer etc etc is.

So what I propose that in this thread, we just name a few terms used a lot in the Buffyverse, and then together we try to define them, I will keep a list of the definition is this post, and I hope that this will make discussion a little more easy.

I want to know, what is the definition of a soul is?

Definitions
Soul:
 
I think in the Buffyverse the soul is a kind of force that lives within you and gives you the ability to be good, to make moral decisions, and to love- without a soul you are incapable of these, so it's kind of a bit like a conscience. A soul allows you to feel guilt for bad things you have done (e.g. Angel) but without it you are able to commit evil deeds and feel nothing but enjoyment (e.g. Angelus). However, I think that creatures without souls are able to love in a way, but not in a pure way- e.g. Buffy and Angel is soulful love, with Spike and Dru, both without souls, was a kind of twisted love. Still love, but soulless, if you see what I mean.

Hope that wasn't too confusing 😉
 
Soul: The Buffyverse lexicon has been a bit ambiguous about what is meant by "the soul". The term has been used to refer to (1) the moral conscience of a person, their (2) consciousness, intelligence, memory, and personality , and their (3) life-force, the energy that keeps a person alive. The most persistent use on BtVS and AtS is the soul as the (1) moral conscience. Everything else within a person (i.e., their consciousness, intelligence, memory, and personality) is something else, what I will refer to as their "spirit", Both humans and demons have spirits (more evidence for this difference).
 
I think the moral conscience of a person (like slayerpower suggested) comes closest, it's like a 6th sense to what is right and wrong, but then what about people who have a soul and still do evil (the Mayor, Faith, Ethan), is their conscience not working. Or do they know what is right and wrong, but does their personality allow them to do things that they know is wrong?
 
allycat:imo a bad person/demon with/without knows the difference between right and wrong,they are bad cuz they want to,not cuz trhey have or don't have souls
 
I think everyone (with soul, without soul, human, demon, vampire) knows the difference between right and wrong. The difference is that an evil human wants to be good, but somehow can't. A vampire doesn't care at all. They never want to be good.
 
I think vampires know either the difference between right and wrong or just know the hunt and the kill. Some vampires take pleasure in evil and they would never want to be good, but they have no soul to make them feel remorse. It doesn't mean that a vampire can't ever want to be good. Take Spike for intance, he wanted to be good, yet he was soulless. The thing is, though, that while he was raping Buffy, afterwards, he felt no guilt until after he got his soul. Your soul is your conscience.
 
I think the soul has to be more than just the conscience. It certainly includes that, but it has to be more. Look at the dramatic shift in personality between Angel and Angelus, the soul has to contain some aspect of the personality, and some sort of indefinable quality, because otherwise when a vamp turns you, he doesn't really kill you, he just turns off your conscience.
 
when a vamp turns you, he doesn't really kill you,
Click to expand...

He kills your body.

I think the problem with this whole soul thing, is Spike, without him and his good behavior before he got a soul, this could've been solved ages ago.

Oh and Nerd4hire where are you?
 
The BTVS definition of a soul has been covered pretty insightfully on this thread. I don't know if I have much more to add.

I think it's possible to clarify the definition though.

In Orpheus we see the soul has a physical presence. We see it glowing in the Muo Ping. Without it Angel becomes Angelus. Therefore, anything we see in Angel, we do not see in Angelus could probably be attributable to the soul.

I disagree with one thing I saw on this thread, though. I don't believe Spike ever did anything before he got his soul that could be attributed to goodness. Anything he does, he does with the primary intention of getting what he wants. He doesn't seek a soul, because he wants to be a better person (vampire). He does it because he wants Buffy.
 
Ok, here's my $0.02.

The soul is energy (we saw that in "Orpheus"). When an infant is born, they are innocent and have a soul. As they grow and learn, the soul's energy powers the conscience, which I see as a kind of switch. As someone heeds their conscience (and does the right thing) they feed their soul, and it maintains itself and renews its energy supply. If they ignore their conscience, the switch is not flipped, and the soul is starved of its supply of renewing energy. This, in turn, causes the conscience to not receive ITS power supply, and eventually it becomes unable to act as a switch...it is stuck, doesn't work, and will not allow energy to renew the soul. The conscience can be jolted back into working condition (for example, Faith) and resume working. It can stay stuck on "evil" and the soul will shrivel (but not disappear...something must be left for judgement). The robustness (?) of the soul determines its disposition at death. Robust souls go to heaven, shrivelled ones to hell.

In the case of vampires, there is no soul. They have a conscience, but it has no power supply, thus it is stuck on "evil". They know the difference between good and evil, but are unable to do the right thing. When a soul is restored, the conscience receives power, and it starts to work. With Angel, he keeps his in good shape by doing the right thing, but what will become of Spike? If he does evil, will his restored soul shrivel like other humans who ignore their conscience? So far this year, he seems to be popping out to hell, so it seems he'd best do good, or risk damnation. Heck, can he even go to heaven? He is a vampire. I don't have answers. Anyone?
 
Too cool KD. That's a workable explanation for everything soul-related that happens in the Buffy-verse. I wonder if the people at Mutant Enemy ever think about stuff like this. If they do it will make for an interesting Angel season 5.

Slightly off topic... When Buffy comes back from heaven, she comes back after her original body would have decomposed. The body and mind have regenerated. Does this mean the total package passes on to Heaven, and can be returned, or does it just mean SMG's contract demands were acceptable?
 
Uhhh, I'll go for the contract...but, the body being restored could be explained by the supernatural resurrection of Buffy. She was reincorporated as she was before she was killed, body and soul.

I don't know if ME ever has formal discussions about stuff like this. With all the writers doing their thing, I'm pretty sure that "the tale grew in the telling", by which I mean that they all started with their own ideas, and added or modified as others added their ideas until a set of "rules" emerged. They're probably not even written down, but all will know kind of what they are because they've been in on the process. Mark this down as rampant speculation...
 
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