Destiny and the Cup of Perpetual Torment

[passions1989]

Okay I was re-watching 'Destiny' yesterday and I have two doubts.
When Angel in the last minute tells Spike that the cup is a burden and not a reward, I got a little confused by that statement. Didn't Sirk say that by one of them drinking from the cup of perpetual torment their past sins would be wiped clean and turned into a human? So how is it, that from Angel's point of view, he sees it as a burden? After all isn't that what Angel has always wanted? So why does he tell Spike that it is a burden?

And another small thing I noticed and I'am quite surprised that nobody has mentioned it on the boards yet was nearing the end when Angel is giving his advice to Spike about how drinking from the cup would be a burden for him and just when Spike starts drinking from the cup Angel says "Spike no!!": Was I the only one who felt that when Angel says all of this to spike in the last minute, he comes off in this scene as being genuinely worried and concerned for Spike rather than whether or not he could get to the cup first? Because Angel seemed a little reluctant right from the start of this episode about getting to the cup, and to me it seemed more like he went after it simply because spike stubbornly jumped onto it the first opportunity he got and also because Angel knew that one of them would have to compulsorily drink from the cup in order to repair the "gaping tear in the balance of the universe" as Eve put it and to restore normality and save the employees in Wolfram and Hart. So I'am not supportive of the idea that Angel gave all that concerned advice to Spike in the last moment because he was manipulating Spike to give up the cup so that he can have it for himself. I felt that Angel gave that concerned advice and tries to stop Spike in the last moment by saying "Spike no!!" was because he is genuinely concerned for Spike and doesn't want Spike to suffer, because throughout the episode Angel doesn't seem all that enthusiastic or keen or eager to get to the cup, and not to mention the fact that Angel doesn't initiate the fight but Spike did. Spike initiates the fight, Angel doesn't seems eager to get to the cup, and his advice in the end for Spike makes him look like he is genuinely concerned for Spike and doesn't want Spike to unnecessarily suffer. And that's kind of touching because ever since the first episode of season 5 Angel has been constantly rebuffing the friendship he and spike had/have, whereas Spike doesn't really give up on their friendship when he appears in season 5 (although Spike has a very immature way of showing it). So while I was watching the last moment of the fighting scene in "Destiny" I kind of felt that this is the first time angel seems to indirectly show any concern or affection for Spike when he advices him.

And this kind of comes full circle or is tied neatly to Angelus's comment in the starting of the episode, in the flashback sequence, when he is introduced to Spike by Drusilla. Angelus happily comments that they (himself and Spike) were going to be the best of friends 😀

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Okay I was re-watching 'Destiny' yesterday and I have two doubts.
When Angel in the last minute tells Spike that the cup is a burden and not a reward, I got a little confused by that statement. Didn't Sirk say that by one of them drinking from the cup of perpetual torment their past sins would be wiped clean and turned into a human? So how is it, that from Angel's point of view, he sees it as a burden? After all isn't that what Angel has always wanted? So why does he tell Spike that it is a burden?

And another small thing I noticed and I'am quite surprised that nobody has mentioned it on the boards yet was nearing the end when Angel is giving his advice to Spike about how drinking from the cup would be a burden for him and just when Spike starts drinking from the cup Angel says "Spike no!!": Was I the only one who felt that when Angel says all of this to spike in the last minute, he comes off in this scene as being genuinely worried and concerned for Spike rather than whether or not he could get to the cup first? Because Angel seemed a little reluctant right from the start of this episode about getting to the cup, and to me it seemed more like he went after it simply because spike stubbornly jumped onto it the first opportunity he got and also because Angel knew that one of them would have to compulsorily drink from the cup in order to repair the "gaping tear in the balance of the universe" as Eve put it and to restore normality and save the employees in Wolfram and Hart. So I'am not supportive of the idea that Angel gave all that concerned advice to Spike in the last moment because he was manipulating Spike to give up the cup so that he can have it for himself. I felt that Angel gave that concerned advice and tries to stop Spike in the last moment by saying "Spike no!!" was because he is genuinely concerned for Spike and doesn't want Spike to suffer, because throughout the episode Angel doesn't seem all that enthusiastic or keen or eager to get to the cup, and not to mention the fact that Angel doesn't initiate the fight but Spike did. Spike initiates the fight, Angel doesn't seems eager to get to the cup, and his advice in the end for Spike makes him look like he is genuinely concerned for Spike and doesn't want Spike to unnecessarily suffer. And that's kind of touching because ever since the first episode of season 5 Angel has been constantly rebuffing the friendship he and spike had/have, whereas Spike doesn't really give up on their friendship when he appears in season 5 (although Spike has a very immature way of showing it). So while I was watching the last moment of the fighting scene in "Destiny" I kind of felt that this is the first time angel seems to indirectly show any concern or affection for Spike when he advices him.

And this kind of comes full circle or is tied neatly to Angelus's comment in the starting of the episode, in the flashback sequence, when he is introduced to Spike by Drusilla. Angelus happily comments that they (himself and Spike) were going to be the best of friends 😀

I agree with you on the friendship between Spike and Angel.

As for the Cup of Perpetual Torment, at that point, Angel was under the impression that the cup, the Shanshu gift, and being the World's Champion were all tied in together. Angel's view on being the Earth's champion has changed throughout the series.

He's gone through phases.
S1 he was just blindly trying to do good work for the Powers That Be, he no longer had Buffy to follow, and he began trusting his seers to direct his mission.

After the S1 finale when he found out he'll eventually be made human again, his goal was to get there ASAP and rush through saving the world.

He quickly realizes he was wrong and decided to do good for the sake of doing good rather than for the reward. That lasted through "Reunion."

"Reunion" through "Epiphany" his view grew darker, believing he would never be able to beat the bad guys in the greater sense. But by "Epiphany" he came to terms with it, and again was satisfied by saving one soul at a time, mostly accepting that he wouldn't be defeating W&H.

By "Home" Angel hadn't given up on being a Champion, but he essentially gave up on the powers that be, he was mad that they let one of their own (Jasmine) cause so much damage to Cordy & Connor, and he decided that compromising might not be so bad.

By "Destiny" he was bitter, bitter about losing Cordy, Connor, Darla & Doyle, he even blamed the Powers for a lot of it. He was bitter that his compromises made his life feel less meaningful. And he believed that the Powers weren't in his corner anymore, so he saw the strings tied to the Shanshu as a curse that cost him his two best friends, and his son.

It wasn't until Cordelia returned that he started believing in the Shanshu again.

And contrary to what Kelley Armstrong claims, Angel will just keep fighting the good fight until he, his team, Buffy's team and the Powers manage to banish evil from Earth.

 

[Mozzymandias]

Okay I was re-watching 'Destiny' yesterday and I have two doubts.
When Angel in the last minute tells Spike that the cup is a burden and not a reward, I got a little confused by that statement. Didn't Sirk say that by one of them drinking from the cup of perpetual torment their past sins would be wiped clean and turned into a human? So how is it, that from Angel's point of view, he sees it as a burden? After all isn't that what Angel has always wanted? So why does he tell Spike that it is a burden?

Not to sure if I remembered correctly, I think it's explained that because they're now two vampires with souls the prophecy got all weird and started messing things up, drinking from the Cup of Perpetual Torment indicated who the Shansu Prophecy is about. In the end though I guess it doesn't matter since it was just a fake right? 😛

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

and can i randomly steer off the serious convo for the moment and say the way Spike says "mountain dew" is pretty much the funniest thing ever.

 

[white avenger]

That whole "Mountain Dew" thing seemed to me to make no sense whatsoever except for it's slight comedic content. What difference would it have made WHAT he drank (assuming that there was really anything to the so called "prophecy) as ling as he drank SOMETHING from the cup. It wasn't called the Elixir of Perpetual Torment. It could have contained water, blood, Mountain Dew (and by the way, for any of the non-USA readers, "mountain dew" was originally a slang word referring to illegal whiskey made by South, not a soft drink), or any other liquid.

As for the entire episode, I think that it was supposed to be a sort of coming of age exercise for Spike, and making sure that granddaddy Angel finally got the point. Spike was no longer the fledgling Willie, intimidated and awe struck by the older and more powerful Angelus/Angel. As he said in Sunnydale the year before in Sunnydale, Spike was no longer influenced or subservient to the First, or anybody else, including the grandsire who had bullied, belittled, and betrayed him for over a century. It was also the beginning of what will, hopefully, become a more mutually trusting and respectful relationship between the two vampires. I don't think that they will ever be true friends, because there are too many bad memories between them, but I see no reason why they can't become trusted allies. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Spike asks Angel to be his Best Man when he and Buffy get married. They might even name their first baby "Broodie" after him.

 

[Kana]

As I've said before, I don't think either of them come off well in this fight. Not sure if I posted my thoughts on Destiny but...

What I did find interesting is that Angelus must have never succeeded in creating that despair in William as at the end of the flashback he keeps fighting, we know he must have still lost but although he was hurt and angry he never really gave up hope and of course after this incident he never stopped vying for Dru’s attention.

I think like last time Deb and the others pretty much beat me to it and have posted pretty much everything that I may have posted and then some.

Some thoughts though, couldn’t they have just sung for Lorne? Wouldn’t that have cleared some things up. It was worth a shot wasn’t it?

It’s interesting that both vamps have given so much of themselves in the good fight but both are willing to be quite selfish this time around.

I found the last thing Angel said before Spike got to the cup interesting.

Angel: That's not a prize you're holding.
(Spike looks at Angel)
It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a cross.
(Angel stands)
One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes. Believe me. I know

It’s pretty sad that he views it as a burden but he’d rather retain a burden than have nothing at all to believe in.

This mantle of the VWAS, has caused Angel as much pain as it has anything else. I suppose the ‘disconnect’ was a result of the fear he felt about what would happen if he reconnected.

Angel like before, goes through the motions. He only ‘accepts’ the prophecy must be true rather than really believes in it with conviction. It’s also interesting that Angel like he did 100 years ago isn’t positive about himself as much as he is being negative about Spike. Spike affirms, its my destiny, I’m the one, while Angel only says you’re less and it’s not about you. I can’t remember Angel saying ‘I’m more and I deserve it,’.

Both of them gave into their insecurities and they were both losers lol.

 

[passions1989]

Kana, White Avenger and Buffyverse Fan, all three of your posts have nailed it beautifully well. I re-watched the episode another couple of times, even read the transcript a couple of times and finally read all of your posts and it's starting to make sense. I now realize why Angel views it a burden and not a reward mainly because of all the events that have taken place during the last 4 years or so. Him loosing Cordy, Darla, Connor, Doyle and even to some extent his break-up from Buffy have all been carefully manipulated for the coming of Jasmine only to find out that although she works for the powers-that-be she is not who she says she is. She is not a good character but a monster. One of PTB's own people seem to be evil, which means that they are not really on Angel's side. This has made Angel unable to trust anything to do with the PTBs (which include the Shanshu prophecy as well). So Angel's advice to Spike about the prophecy's message being a burden until it burns you to ashes makes sense and is entirely fitting for Angel's character to make a statement (filled with despair) like that.

But I still felt that Angel during his last moment speech/advice to Spike comes of more like a concerned or worried older brother who does not want his younger brother to do something stupid and rash. In the last moment when Spike starts drinking from the cup Angel tries to run towards him, he says something along the lines of "Spike no!!". at that moment he genuinely sounds worried for Spike. When Spike starts drinking from the cup, I don't think Angel is running towards him so that he can have it for himself. And Spike telling Angel "I probably should have dusted you, but honestly I don't want to hear her bitch about it" just felt like a fake excuse. I think that it's irrespective of Buffy's feelings for Angel, Spike himself is truly incapable of killing Angel, and that just goes to portray that Spike doesn't really give up on their friendship (but he shows it to Angel in an immature manner. Not that Angel is any better. I mean seriously, did it take Spike and Angel a hundred punches before they could be nice to one another?!). Hopefully we get to see more of this sometime in the future, that is, in the comic books. I just hope that if such a scene were to happen again it doesn't start with them trading blows to one another but maybe actually hugging one another.

Kana, you are right, Angel never really said "I'am better and I deserve the cup". He is just saying that Spike is not a champion, and hence cannot be considered a legal candidate for this. I always felt that Spike was to Angel, what Faith is to Buffy. Faith is the "other living slayer" apart from Buffy herself, just like Spike is the "other vampire with a soul" apart from Angel himself. If Faith and Buffy would be able to work and live together for another 100 years or so, their relationship would end up just like the present-day Angel and Spike's have. Faith's argument is that she and Buffy never really got along because they were not supposed to exist together. The same argument can be applied to Spike and Angel as well. But I think the main problem with Angel (and not Spike) is that he really refuses to accept Spike as another champion. Not only does he constantly rebuff any sense of friendship between himself and Spike but Angel also underestimates Spike and looks down on him. Spike on the other hand acknowledges that Angel is a champion, and constantly tries to make a connection with Angel (however immaturely) even though Angel constantly rebuffs him. You have to wonder if this was another reason why Spike initiated the fight in "Destiny" because he was partly frustrated at being constantly rebuffed by Angel.

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

Oh Gunn, why didn't you just snap Eve's neck like a twig.


This one was both a hit and miss for me.

Liked the brawl between Angel and Spike, it was loooong overdue. The flashback scenes with Dru were also good.


Too bad more wasn't done with "bloody eyed" madness subplot. Would've liked for more W&H people to have become infected. So Team Angel could also have that to battle on a bigger scale.

Also missed Wesley.


Lindsey's back....YEAH!!!

 

[Kana]

Too bad more wasn't done with "bloody eyed" madness subplot. Would've liked for more W&H people to have become infected. So Team Angel could also have that to battle on a bigger scale.

Not really sure what you mean. The whole bloody eye madness was to get Angel and Spike to fight in the first place. It was ploy constructed by Lindsay and Eve.

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

Not really sure what you mean. The whole bloody eye madness was to get Angel and Spike to fight in the first place. It was ploy constructed by Lindsay and Eve.

I'm aware of that, just wished it would've infected more people at W&H. Causing more murder and mayhem.

 

[Kana]

I'm aware of that, just wished it would've infected more people at W&H. Causing more murder and mayhem.

I think that would have been a waste of time, plotwise. The main thing was to get Angel and Spike fighting. What the point of seeing a bunch of people with bleeding eyes? To be honest, apart from the Gunn/Eve scene, I kept wanting to go back to the Angel/Spike stuff.