Episode Discussion "Destiny" - Epic Fight with Spike and Angel

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I thought it would be fun to discuss this excellent episode.

So, Lately, I've been thinking a lot of about Angel and Spike's relationship. Mainly, why they hate each other so much. I think this episode has the answers to this.

RANT: God, that line from Angel regarding Spike's fighting for a soul to get into Buffy's pants is just so off-base to me! It makes it sound like Spike got his soul because he wanted Buffy to sleep with him again. It irritates me every time I hear it because it's so obviously incorrect. Anyone who thinks this obviously doesn't understand Spike's character very well.

Spike got a soul so he could be a better man for Buffy, the kind of man she could love and the kind of man she deserved. He didn't once try to "get into her pants" when he came back after he got a soul.

Show me once instance where he did this and I'll shut up. (In fact, he rejected her advances!)

He's already "been in her pants" and wasn't happy with the situation. He wanted more.

UGH. Angel, your killing me.

Angel and Spike, while they share an interesting sexual subtext, also have a rather Father/Son-like dynamic don't you think? Angel, on some level, feels the need to "look after" Spike, as in he feels responsible for him, and Spike seems to rebel against him as a boy would against an unfair father.

Angel hates Spike because Spike reminds him of the monster he created. ""¦'cause every time you look at me you see all the dirty little things I've done, all the lives I've taken because of you!"

Spike hates Angel because he'll always be in his shadow. He knows he's different then Angel, but is he better? He'll always feel inferior to Angel in many ways, I think. Buffy loved Angel. Dru gave herself to Angel. Now, even though Spike feels superior to Angel because he fought for his soul and therefore in his mind deserved it more.

Spike wanted it more (the cup) and that kills Angel. Not to be a "real boy", but to beat Angel at something is what Spike wanted.

I sort of see souled Angel and Spike as the same as Faith and Buffy. They're not supposed to exist in the same universe together. It was clear that when both vampires were evil they were a great team but with souls? That's a different story.

I think, in a way, this fight was therapeutic for them. It worked out their issues.

Also, Spike admits he would have killed Angel, but he didn't want to hear Buffy complain about it. I found this really interesting. Do you all think Spike really would have staked Angel?

Anyone else think the Cup of Perpetual Torment might be a vague reference to the Holy Grail in the literature of the Middle Ages? The Grail was also a cup of sorts, and a "quest" had to be taken to find it, and a fight ensued over it.

Discuss away! What does everyone think of this great episode?

 

[TheCheese]

The grail, yes. Theraputic, another yes. But Spike TECHNICALLY tried to get in her pants with a soul, although he thought it was initiated by her. "Get it hard, service the girl."

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

The grail, yes. Theraputic, another yes. But Spike TECHNICALLY tried to get in her pants with a soul, although he thought it was initiated by her. "Get it hard, service the girl."

Ah, true. BUT, as you point out, he only did it because he thought that was what she wanted or what was expected of him. In his mind, that's all he was good for to her.

 

[Kana]

Destiny...

I do love this episode but I think it's worth mentioning that neither vampire comes across particularly well here. Both of them are trying prove they are more heroic than the other while ironically acting like selfish jerks. Both of them treat Buffy as if she is a trophy. So yeah, Angel may have made a reference to their sexual relationship but so did Spike. So yes I know Spike didn't get a soul to get into Buffy's pants as such but both of them use her a point of contention in their rivalry. Not good.

 

[hannahfngrl26]

Being the Angel fan I am it is hard for me to admit it but I thought Angel came across as kind of pathetic in this episode. His head was not in the game. It was like he didnt realy care. It bums me out.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Did anybody else think watching this episode was like watching porn? Yum. I'm a Spike girl but Angel's not exactly hard on the eyes. I don't know why seeing them fight was so cool but it was. Great observations in the OP. I'm only just past this episode now (for the first time) and am strangely pleased to see that Lindsay's back for some reason. I like that guy. That there was Mountain Dew in the cup cracked me up.

 

[white avenger]

I think that this episode established the fact that Spike was, indeed, after all those years, all that humiliation, and all that abuse, at least Angel's equal, if not his superior. Spike beat Angel because, finally, he was too angry at him to be afraid anymore, and, once that factor was thrown out, he did what he did better than anyone in the Buffyverse, with the possible exception of Buffy herself: he got back up one more time than Angel was able to knock him down. Just as simple as that.

 

[ubi4soft]

Angel hates Spike because Spike reminds him of the monster he created. ""¦'cause every time you look at me you see all the dirty little things I've done, all the lives I've taken because of you!"

I'm not sure this is the reason why Angel hates Spike or if he hates him anyway.

We already heard Penn saying almost the same thing "But I've come to realize something "“ it's you! You made me! You taught me! You approved of me in ways my mortal father never did! You are my real father, Angelus", but in Somnambulist Angel said he was sorry for creating such a monster.

With Spike, Angel gets frustrated "You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?" and a little jealous towards the Buffy thing because Spike was there recently.

That's why I love the fact that they made Drusilla the root for their epic fight.

 

[Wesley]

I think that this episode established the fact that Spike was, indeed, after all those years, all that humiliation, and all that abuse, at least Angel's equal, if not his superior.

I'm to tired to get overly technical about why this is wrong but I'll try to get it out.

The point of this episode, along with Soul Purpose, Damage, and You're Welcome is part of a theme that is not about Spike being better then Angel, it's about Angel losing his sense of purpose.

The only reason why Spike beats Angel at this, is because as Angelus taught him so many years ago, you take what you want. Angel in his heart did not know what he wanted and Spike did.

Angel got Dru first, he got his soul first, he got Buffy first, he became a Champion first, he got his own 'scooby gang' first, he got his mission from the PTB first, if you want to get technical, Angelus was a more feared vampire then Spike. Angel has always beaten Spike in everything ever because Angel always had a purpose. This time he isn't sure what he's fighting for and if it's worth it, and Spikes combination of 'screw you Angel' and confidence in being a champion is just the edge he needs to finally notch a win against Big Brother.

So yes, not in any way about Spike being superior to Angel, on the contrary it's about Angel and what's going on inside him. Thanks to this and a few other events Angel regains his balance, finds his purpose, becomes the leader he has been in the past and by the time Not Fade Away rolls around, Spike has acknowledged Angel as the leader.


Yeah the Cup thing is a total reference to the Holy Grail. The funny part being that the cup was a complete and utter fabrication. Angel and Spike were total rubes and fell for the grandeur of the story heh. Why the heck would someone keep a random cup in the middle of an abandoned opera house in the Nevada desert that just so happened to have the ability to choose the worlds champion? Seems odd, someone should have asked some questions.

 

[white avenger]

I'm to tired to get overly technical about why this is wrong but I'll try to get it out.

The point of this episode, along with Soul Purpose, Damage, and You're Welcome is part of a theme that is not about Spike being better then Angel, it's about Angel losing his sense of purpose.

The only reason why Spike beats Angel at this, is because as Angelus taught him so many years ago, you take what you want. Angel in his heart did not know what he wanted and Spike did.

Angel got Dru first, he got his soul first, he got Buffy first, he became a Champion first, he got his own 'scooby gang' first, he got his mission from the PTB first, if you want to get technical, Angelus was a more feared vampire then Spike. Angel has always beaten Spike in everything ever because Angel always had a purpose. This time he isn't sure what he's fighting for and if it's worth it, and Spikes combination of 'screw you Angel' and confidence in being a champion is just the edge he needs to finally notch a win against Big Brother.

So yes, not in any way about Spike being superior to Angel, on the contrary it's about Angel and what's going on inside him. Thanks to this and a few other events Angel regains his balance, finds his purpose, becomes the leader he has been in the past and by the time Not Fade Away rolls around, Spike has acknowledged Angel as the leader.


Yeah the Cup thing is a total reference to the Holy Grail. The funny part being that the cup was a complete and utter fabrication. Angel and Spike were total rubes and fell for the grandeur of the story heh. Why the heck would someone keep a random cup in the middle of an abandoned opera house in the Nevada desert that just so happened to have the ability to choose the worlds champion? Seems odd, someone should have asked some questions.

First off, just wanting something the most doesn't beat your opponent. Skill and determination do that, coupled with a certain amount of luck. Angel underestimated Spike, thought that he was the same little puppy who followed Dru around taking all of her abuse, and he got his head, figuratively, handed to him on a platter because of it. Either that, or he made the mistake of thinking that he still intimidated Spike the way that he had for the past hundred years. Spike had endured torture by both Glory and the First Evil, endured pain unlike anything that Angel ever did, either when he was in Sunnydale, or there in Los Angeles. Spike withstood trails and pain just in winning his soul back (and, no, this isn't about who won their soul and who was cursed with it, this is about enduring incredible pain and suffering, overcoming overwhelming odds, and still coming back for more. We never saw Angel do any of that to the degree that Spike did). Certainly the fight in "Destiny" was a wake up call for Angel. He learned that he just might not be biggest bad in the game anymore. Spike was his equal, if not his superior.

And, sure, Angelus got a lot of things first. That's a simple matter of timing. The winner of the contest is the one who has those things in the end. In those things that really mattered, that was Spike.

Yes, Angel did begin to understand what Cordy finally came back to tell him. He had lost his way and his focus. I can agree with that, but that's not the only thing that happened there. Spike finally, fully, understood what Buffy had told him the year before: he could be, he WAS a better man. To discount that, and to see only what happened to Angel from that point on, is to ignore the other things going on around him. Spike, Fred, Wes, Gunn, even Connor, grew, evolved, and became better people, and they all defocused on the job at hand.

The Cup Of Eternal Torment might have been an utter fabrication, and trying to get it might have led to Angel's realization that he had lost his way, but it also led to a realization for Spike as well. He wasn't under Angel's thumb anymore. He was, finally, completely aware of the fact that he didn't have to be anybody's back up or faithful companion anymore, not Buffy's, and certainly not Angel's. That became obvious as that season progressed, and it was undeniable in "After The Fall."

 

[Kana]

Interestingly I wrote this on another forum:

Angelus must have never succeeded in creating that despair in William as at the end of the flashback he keeps fighting, we know he must have still lost but although he was hurt and angry he never really gave up hope and of course after this incident he never stopped vying for Dru’s attention.

First off, just wanting something the most doesn't beat your opponent. Skill and determination do that, coupled with a certain amount of luck. Angel underestimated Spike, thought that he was the same little puppy who followed Dru around taking all of her abuse, and he got his head, figuratively, handed to him on a platter because of it. Either that, or he made the mistake of thinking that he still intimidated Spike the way that he had for the past hundred years.

In both the past and the present, Angel(us) is threatened by Spike. Angelus takes control of the situation by mentoring William, who still very much an inexperienced fledgling.

As someone once said, this is a tale about two men who know each other a little too well and only know how to interact as rivals.

Spike had endured torture by both Glory and the First Evil, endured pain unlike anything that Angel ever did, either when he was in Sunnydale, or there in Los Angeles. Spike withstood trails and pain just in winning his soul back (and, no, this isn't about who won their soul and who was cursed with it, this is about enduring incredible pain and suffering, overcoming overwhelming odds, and still coming back for more. We never saw Angel do any of that to the degree that Spike did).

Well it depends on what they are fighting for. Spike withstanding the pain of torture for Buffy was impressive, as was Angel not giving up the ring in ITD and also going through the Trials for Darla and being "someone of extraordinary will and character to survive (hell) retain any semblance of self."
The fact that Angel didn't have enough will to beat Spike doesn't worry me. While Spike was showing more will and determination in the fight, he was still coming from a place of insecurity.

Certainly the fight in "Destiny" was a wake up call for Angel. He learned that he just might not be biggest bad in the game anymore. Spike was his equal, if not his superior.

I don't think so. The whole reason Angel fought back is because he saw Spike as threat to his territory. He saw him as true rival eversince he found out he was in Buffy's heart and had a soul. Before that he could always say he was better than Spike because the soul thing.

And, sure, Angelus got a lot of things first. That's a simple matter of timing. The winner of the contest is the one who has those things in the end. In those things that really mattered, that was Spike.

The real winner would realise they don't have to prove their validation and worth through a fight for a Cup of Perpetual Nothing. In this light they are both losers.

Yes, Angel did begin to understand what Cordy finally came back to tell him. He had lost his way and his focus. I can agree with that, but that's not the only thing that happened there. Spike finally, fully, understood what Buffy had told him the year before: he could be, he WAS a better man.

Any credence of Spike being the better man was lost because he had to prove it.

To discount that, and to see only what happened to Angel from that point on, is to ignore the other things going on around him. Spike, Fred, Wes, Gunn, even Connor, grew, evolved, and became better people, and they all defocused on the job at hand.

I'll leave this because I think I need it clarifying. Sorry 🙂.

The Cup Of Eternal Torment might have been an utter fabrication, and trying to get it might have led to Angel's realization that he had lost his way, but it also led to a realization for Spike as well. He wasn't under Angel's thumb anymore. He was, finally, completely aware of the fact that he didn't have to be anybody's back up or faithful companion anymore, not Buffy's, and certainly not Angel's. That became obvious as that season progressed, and it was undeniable in "After The Fall."

I actually see his speech in Shells as more of triumph because he's not using Buffy or Angel as benchmarks. He's not doing it because he think it's what Buffy's wants (see Get It Done) nor is he trying to be superior to Angel (see the majority of the first part of Ats Season 5), he's fighting because he wants to contribute to good fight. This proves Angel and Lindsay's comments about his apparent self interest completely wrong.

Another point is that Angel finally admitted Spike is champion, when he wasn't trying so hard to prove it to Angel or himself.

 

[Spikesangel11]

I love this episode, it's my favourite of season 5, and possibly the whole series.

I think the cup should have been filled with holy water. That would've established better the whole Eve & Lindsey vs. Angel thing. Mountain Dew just seemed a bit tame, haha.

The fight scene was amazing. I love, love, LOVE, everything Spike said to Angel.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Spike wanted it more (the cup) and that kills Angel. Not to be a “real boy”, but to beat Angel at something is what Spike wanted.

I agree with your assessment of Spike's motivations, but I think Angel didn't especially want the cup at this point. He saw his role as champion as more of a curse in light of his loss of Doyle, Connor and Cordy. He's a Champion of TPTB, and he kind of hates them.

Shortly thereafter, You're Welcome rekindles Angel's determination, but he never regained his pre-Darla's return enthusiasm for his title.

Also, Spike admits he would have killed Angel, but he didn’t want to hear Buffy complain about it. I found this really interesting. Do you all think Spike really would have staked Angel?

Never! I think After the Fall answered that question, when Maria Spider (and everyone else) thought Spike should kill Angel. Spike pretty much stepped back and acted as Angel's support, risking everything.

I think that Angel & Buffy are the only ones in the world that Spike truly loves, though in very different ways. The argument can also be made for Illyria and Connor in light of After the Fall.

I wouldn't call Spike inferior to Angel, in AS5 & After the Fall he chose to follow Angel's lead, but if we compare the two guys on even ground, Spike's done a lot more with his un-life. As Angel angrily pointed out, it took him about 200 years of having a soul (counting hell) to become a Champion, not to mention the aid of three liaisons to TPTB (Whistler, Doyle & Cordy) and Buffy. And Spike almost immediately stepped up to saving the world.

Man-to-man, I'd go as far as saying Spike might be the better. As of 2009 there are only two factors that make Angel superior: His destiny, and the fact that Spike subconsciously prefers to follow as opposed to leading.

Angel and Buffy have this intertwined destiny that will lead to a radical change in the world. Spike will write his own path. My hope and guess is that as an epilogue to the entire Buffyverse, we'll see that after helping Buffy & Angel fulfill their destinies, we'll see Spike become a powerful ally of Fray, having acted as the Champion following Buffy & Angel's deaths of old age until Fray's calling.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think that Angel & Buffy are the only ones in the world that Spike truly loves, though in very different ways. The argument can also be made for Illyria and Connor in light of After the Fall.

Great comment. I never thought of it that way, but I think I agree.

I wouldn't call Spike inferior to Angel, in AS5 & After the Fall he chose to follow Angel's lead, but if we compare the two guys on even ground, Spike's done a lot more with his un-life. As Angel angrily pointed out, it took him about 200 years of having a soul (counting hell) to become a Champion, not to mention the aid of three liaisons to TPTB (Whistler, Doyle & Cordy) and Buffy. And Spike almost immediately stepped up to saving the world.

I agree. As they're both a couple of my favorite characters, I don't think one is better then the other. They're just different.

And you do make a good point. Spike was stronger than Angel in the sense that he needed much less time to recover from the shock of having a soul than Angel did. Angel was basically non-functional for like a hundred years, while Spike fought against the madness the soul created in him, because he knew Buffy needed him. He picked himself up and dusted himself off and moved on. It took Angel far longer to do this.

Man-to-man, I'd go as far as saying Spike might be the better. As of 2009 there are only two factors that make Angel superior: His destiny, and the fact that Spike subconsciously prefers to follow as opposed to leading.

When you say 'destiny', are you referring to the prophecy or to his title as a Champion? Because I'd argue that Spike is a Champion as well.

You bring up an interesting point here, though. I've never believed Angel to be better then Spike, but even if I did, I don't think his 'destiny' (however you intend it to mean) would be the determining factor for his superiority over Spike.

Angel and Buffy have this intertwined destiny that will lead to a radical change in the world.

What do you mean by this? That they're both heroes, or that you think they'll end up together in the end? Please elaborate.

Spike will write his own path. My hope and guess is that as an epilogue to the entire Buffyverse, we'll see that after helping Buffy & Angel fulfill their destinies, we'll see Spike become a powerful ally of Fray, having acted as the Champion following Buffy & Angel's deaths of old age until Fray's calling.

I really like this idea...

Great post.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Great comment. I never thought of it that way, but I think I agree.

Thanks Joan!

I agree. As they're both a couple of my favorite characters, I don't think one is better then the other. They're just different.

And you do make a good point. Spike was stronger than Angel in the sense that he needed much less time to recover from the shock of having a soul than Angel did. Angel was basically non-functional for like a hundred years, while Spike fought against the madness the soul created in him, because he knew Buffy needed him. He picked himself up and dusted himself off and moved on. It took Angel far longer to do this.

According to James, Spike managed to recover so quickly because he places the blame of his evil on Angelus' shoulders, lol.

When you say 'destiny', are you referring to the prophecy or to his title as a Champion? Because I'd argue that Spike is a Champion as well.

You bring up an interesting point here, though. I've never believed Angel to be better then Spike, but even if I did, I don't think his 'destiny' (however you intend it to mean) would be the determining factor for his superiority over Spike.

Spike & Angel are both champions, but the Shanshu Prophecy is Angel's destiny, imo.

I think Angel's life has been written in stone from day one. Let's face it, he should have died several times already, and has, but TPTB, the First, and/or Wolfram & Hart keep resurrecting him, because he's going to be a pivotal player in The Apocalypse. The result of Angel, Buffy and Willow's actions are going to lead to Fray's bizarre world coming about.

The Shanshu Prophecy doesn't necessarily make Angel better, but it does make him the focal point of a lot of major situations.

What do you mean by this? That they're both heroes, or that you think they'll end up together in the end? Please elaborate.

I mean that The Apocalypse Lindsey made us aware of and Urkon recalled will most likely be Buffy, Angel & Willow rallying the Slayers, Champions & Wiccans of the world against the remaining Big Bads. I actually just posted Joss' two teasers of the event here: Theory on Buffy season 8 ending. - Buffy-Boards

We know that Angel will be made human after that, and it also will probably be a defining point of Buffy's legacy. The two will also most likely die within the next few decades, as all humans do.

Spike on the other hand doesn't have any big prophecies about him. While that may have given him an inferiority complex at first, he's come to realize that he gets to be his own man and carve out his own path. We saw where that took him in After the Fall where he wasn't lead by prophecy, calling or destiny, but just his own will to protect Illyria, Jeremy and others.

Like you Joan, Spike and Angel are two of my favorite characters, and I think they just keep getting better.

Oh, and that bit about Spike & Fray is just a wild hope that came to mind when we saw through one of Illyria's time slips that at some point Spike will be guarding the Slayer Scythe.

 

[Kana]

According to James, Spike managed to recover so quickly because he places the blame of his evil on Angelus' shoulders, lol.

Lol, I heard that too. I think it helped having Buffy there as both a reason for having a soul and also support, both things that Angel never had.

Spike & Angel are both champions, but the Shanshu Prophecy is Angel's destiny, imo.

Maybe, maybe not. I created a thread: https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=35018

I think Angel's life has been written in stone from day one. Let's face it, he should have died several times already, and has, but TPTB, the First, and/or Wolfram & Hart keep resurrecting him, because he's going to be a pivotal player in The Apocalypse. The result of Angel, Buffy and Willow's actions are going to lead to Fray's bizarre world coming about.

I have no doubt that Angel's role is significant but I'm loathe to him being the prophecy poster child. I think that a lot of powerful people were/are invested in him, his destiny is still a question mark, like Spike's and like everyone elses.

The Shanshu Prophecy doesn't necessarily make Angel better, but it does make him the focal point of a lot of major situations.

If he is the Chosen one then, yes, I agree.

I mean that The Apocalypse Lindsey made us aware of and Urkon recalled will most likely be Buffy, Angel & Willow rallying the Slayers, Champions & Wiccans of the world against the remaining Big Bads. I actually just posted Joss' two teasers of the event here: Theory on Buffy season 8 ending. - Buffy-Boards

Not sure about all the details, but I'm sure they wont be the only ones involved.

We know that Angel will be made human after that, and it also will probably be a defining point of Buffy's legacy. The two will also most likely die within the next few decades, as all humans do.

Again see my thread. It's a little dated sure, but there are some interesting points made, I think.

Spike on the other hand doesn't have any big prophecies about him. While that may have given him an inferiority complex at first, he's come to realize that he gets to be his own man and carve out his own path. We saw where that took him in After the Fall where he wasn't lead by prophecy, calling or destiny, but just his own will to protect Illyria, Jeremy and others.

I still like what Angel said in TGIQ:

Angel: We're champions,....we make our own fate?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I have no doubt that Angel's role is significant but I'm loathe to him being the prophecy poster child. I think that a lot of powerful people were/are invested in him, his destiny is still a question mark, like Spike's and like everyone elses.

If he is the Chosen one then, yes, I agree.

That may be what Angel prefers to think, and he's right in that the journey is his to decide, but he has yet to disprove a legit prophecy.

Not to mention the fact that I don't think Spike even wants the Shanshu Prophecy. He wanted to take something away from Angel. Spike's waaay over that, see the end of S5 & After the Fall. Spike wanted to be a real Champion, and he's already there now. And Spike enjoys being a vampire, probably more than any character with the possible exceptions of the Master & Dracula.

Not sure about all the details, but I'm sure they wont be the only ones involved.

No one said they are, but I guarantee it will be those three leading the charge. Heck we have future confirmations about Buffy leading it (plus David Fury said that Joss told him personally). And Angel's role has been the focal point of his series, plus we got that preview of it a few months ago.

Angel: We're champions,....we make our own fate?

Angel does make his own decisions, but higher powers already have an inclination of what those decisions will be. Pretty much everyone in the Buffyverse thinks Angel's the Shanshu Vamp, and I agree. Personally, I think Angel would be happy as a human if the world was safe, and I think Spike would be miserable as some mortal suburban guy...

 

[thevikingsgirl]

It is hard to picture Spike as human. He's such a GREAT vampire. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

The thing about the Shanshu Prophecy that everyone has to remember is that everything so far known about it comes directly from Wolfram & Hart and the Senior Partners, not the most trusted sources when it comes to truth. The whole thing may turn out to be a lot more thunder than lightning, just tossed into the mix to add confusion and strife. First, it was almost a certainty that it referred to Angel, then Spike got his soul, and the actual recipient of the reward became in question, dependent on drinking from the Cup of Eternal Torment, only that turned out to be false information. Then, in "After The Fall," the Senior Partners finally announced that, yes, Angel was the Prophecy Boy, but the reward would be for his services to them, the bad guys, which would make him Buffy's enemy, and without even the old evil twin, Angelus, to take the actual blame.

If the Prophecy actually does turn out to be true, we end up with a human Angel who is Buffy's enemy. That's hardly my idea of the ideal "happily ever after" scenario that everyone seems to be looking forward to. It is, though, exactly the kind of thing that a man named Whedon would truly enjoy perpetrating on his loyal fans.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

If the Prophecy actually does turn out to be true, we end up with a human Angel who is Buffy's enemy. That's hardly my idea of the ideal "happily ever after" scenario that everyone seems to be looking forward to. It is, though, exactly the kind of thing that a man named Whedon would truly enjoy perpetrating on his loyal fans.

Great point. This is what I'm always saying.

I doubt even Buffy would take off running into his newly-human arms if he had say, had a hand in the death of one of her friends.

Also, who's to say he'll regain his humanity in time? Buffy might be dead by them. For good.

Angel's redemption and the "reward" of his humanity is for his benefit. It's about Angel, not Buffy. It's not about "getting her boyfriend" back. It's about his own personal redemption.