Destiny Fight

[jom]

Were many Angel's fans mad about spike winning?

Im a fan of both Angel and Spike but i lean more Angel. I had no problem at all with spike winning that fight, for goodness sake Angel has had the upper hand over spike ever since they met, not only that but spike is kind like, i dont know how to put this, a Spare Angel?. Now now, dont get mad Spike's fans, i love spike. What i mean to say is that spike is going where angel has already been, he is kind of following in angel's footsteps. Also there's something Spike said to Angel at the beginning of Angel's season 5, -Angel has it too good- which compared to spike, i agree. Spike in Angel season 5 was a pauper with no where else to go, Angel was the CEO of the most powerful organization in town. You got to feel for Spike a bit, he was great in season 5

 

[white avenger]

I'm an Angel fan on his own show, regardless of what I might feel about him being with Buffy, and I thought that it was quite appropriate that Spike beat Angel at that time. In fact, it would have been completely wrong if Spike had lost that fight, and not entirely because Angel had become complacent, dismissing Spike as no real threat, though that was a definite factor. That was the moment when Angel finally had to admit that Spike his equal, rather than just Drusilla's boy toy, Spike's coming of age, so to speak. It didn't have to mean that, from that moment on, Spike could beat Angel whenever he wanted to, but it very graphically illustrated to Angel that his grandchild could no longer simply be taken for granted. He was Angel's equal, definitely, from that moment on.

 

[thetopher]

I didn't mind Spike winning at all- it was dramaticaly appropriate for that point in the season
I didn't think it was particularly representative of their overall relative fighting ability- the viewer has seen Angel fight through more unstoppable odds; battle demons and creatures much tougher than Spike.
Spike in contrast has barely been in any smack-down drag-out fights that he didn't lose on Buffy.

Angel fighting Spike felt like S1 Angel fighting Penn- his heart wasn't really in it because he thought that he would (and should) win. Angel was complaicent.

Spike being the victor in that fight was also important because it facilitated Angel's arc. It was another stepping stone that raised the question as to why Angel is special, he's not the only vampire with a soul anymore, there's somebody else who has that unique condition (although they don't act like it...).

Afterwards in the rest of their physical confrontations throughout the season Angel seems to school Spike pretty effortlessly, as we no-doubt would've seen if they'd sparred again.

But by the end of the season its clear why Angel is the star of the show, and why Spike is a lowly co-star. Angel isn't the most powerful person there (that's Illyria) but he is the hero, the guy with the purpose, the guy who doesn't give up on doing the right thing even if he has to sacrifice everything to achieve it.

 

[janas]

I don't mind that Spike wins that fight, even if this thing has been greatly exaggerated by the Spike's fans and it became "Spike is stronger than Angel", despite being told quite clearly that Spike has won only this time. The most important thing in this episode isn't who won, the most important thing is why Spike has won. As said @thetopher, Destiny has established the season's true arc, that was of course, all about Angel and his loss of hope.

 

[Silverspike]

"and why Spike is a lowly co-star."

Why lowly? Would you describe Willow or Xander as such? Oh let me guess...err, no. 😀

Love the Destiny fight. The choreography was just amazing and the stunt people (to say nothing of both DB and JM) certainly seemed to give it their all.

 

[Kana]

It never really bothered me until I joined the forums. Angel was one of my favourite characters on the televised show, but I didn't like him "'cause he was, like, the bestest fighter in, like, the whole universe", I liked him because he was an interesting, complex individual. As I said in the "Angel or Spike" thread, my interest in Angel has little to do with my like or dislike of Spike.

I've always thought there were mainly two camps of fans who had strong opinions on this. Those who say "This is the one decisive fight between the two vampires when they are both of age (not counting In The Dark, because neither vamp got the "killing blow") and Spike one. Along with the fact that he's killed two Slayers, this makes Spike the better fighter of the two"

Or those who say "Angel was clearly depressed and lost hope and that is the only reason that Spike was able to beat him". Oh dear God, I remember debates (read blazing arguments) on the old buffyworld forums with each side fervently contesting against the other. I always picked not often picked third option of "For me it was important for Angel to lose the fight in order that it progressed his arc. I still feel as though the existential themes that have been so prevalent are still prevalent in Season 5. While the loss signifies the loss of direction and purpose that Angel feels, for the relationship between the two vampires, it demonstrates, that mainly interact with each other as rivals. The reason why iI wasn't bothered by who won the fight, was because winning a fight is not going to make you who you are. It's about what's behind the need to win. Angel was fighting to retain a destiny in which he barely believes anymore.

I suppose the issue I have is with people saying "Destiny needed to happen to make Angel accept Spike as an equal". Yet it didn't, it just made Angel further doubt himself and he was still treating Spike as if he were a moron. The mutual respect came when they focused more either each other or the mission rather than focusing on themselves. Maybe I'm missing the point but I don't think "wow you can beat me in a fight, therefore you must be my equal" is something that Angel would entertain. I think he realized that Spike was a possible rival and or equal, but when he was able to get over himself, he realized that who can beat whom in a fight wasn't important. I just wish some fans could come to the same conclusion.

As always, this is just my humble opinion.

 

[thetopher]

Why lowly? Would you describe Willow or Xander as such? Oh let me guess...err, no. 😀

I've used exactly that term -lowly co-star- to describe how Faith was treated on Buffy. If there are two characters who have the same 'power-level' so to speak, but one of them is constantly out-classing/showing up the other (for whatever reason), then I think it's a fair choice of words.
Faith is my favourite character even though Buffy outclasses her a lot of the time.

Oh, I don't try and tell me what I would or would not describe somebody as, you come across as a snotty know-it-all.

Plus you're wrong, I've described Xander in unflattering terms and Willow as well. Mind you, you must be used to the feeling by now. 😉 

Yet it didn't, it just made Angel further doubt himself and he was still treating Spike as if he were a moron.

Well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...😀 
Silverspike: |Oh, I don't try and tell me what I would or would not describe somebody as, you come across as a snotty know-it-all. " Oh like you don't at times. 😀


Btw- This habit of snarking at people inside the 'rep. box' also puts you in a bad light, just saying.

And I've never said 'this is what @Silverspike would say' ever, so that means that you're wrong again. That last part wasn't opinion- it was a stated fact. 😉

 

[Silverspike]

"Btw- This habit of snarking at people inside the 'rep. box' also puts you in a bad light, just saying."

Imo just as your habit of trying to bait people into responding to your seemingly endless Spike bashing. So congratulations hon, today it worked.

 

[thetopher]

Imo just as your habit of trying to bait people into responding to your seemingly endless Spike bashing. So congratulations hon, today it worked.

You might see it as 'baiting', I'm just expressing my opinion is all. That's my right and so tough if you don't like it. Just because you can't argue your pov worth a damn. 🙂

And my 'Spike-bashing' as you call it, isn't endless, it's in context (mostly). And I don't really care if YOU respond to my comments or not. It's not something I particularly savour. 😉

 

[Silverspike]

"Just because you can't argue your pov worth a damn."

Oh ta, now thats not insulting at all, is it. lol

 

[bespangeled]

No fighting guys - it isn't epic, and I demand epic. Swords at the very least.

Spike won because he was the better fighter. Angel hadn't fought him in a century (except one short tussle which Spike had every reason not to win). So Angel had every reason to concentrate on the argument and assume that the fight would come to him. Yes, he was depressed and didn't want it and whatever else people say - but that is the Problem and not the excuse. Spike won because he was by far and away the better fighter at this time and in this place.

Who would call Faith lowly?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Who would call Faith lowly?

Faith really wasn't a costar though, hence the not lowly.

 

[thetopher]

Who would call Faith lowly?

Faith really wasn't a costar though, hence the not lowly.

Somebody was telling me what I would or would not say, in a given situation. which I generally find tedious and tiresome because this person does it a lot.

I pointed out that in one direct comparison between Buffy and Faith (about S3 I believe) I refered to Faith as a 'lowly co-star' because she and Buffy are basically the same slayer-wise, their certainly comparable powers-wise (unlike Buffy and Willow or Xander etc.) , but one is made to look worse to make the other look better.

In the end this is what happens to Spike in S5 of Angel- which was my point. Spike's high point (Destiny) was Angel's lowest-point- which is why he lost.
When the equilibrium is restored Angel is seen to be, in all the important ways, the 'better' Vampire with a soul and therefore the star of the show.

 

[Silverspike]

"Somebody was telling me what I would or would not say, in a given situation. which I generally find tedious and tiresome because this person does it a lot."

My exact phrase was "I guess" so not the same.

"When the equilibrium is restored Angel is seen to be, in all the important ways, the 'better' Vampire"

I think Drogen may beg to differ there. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

In context no, you were absolutely telling me what I would say. You were making an incorrect asumption. When I called you on it and said you were wrong you replied 'like you don't' to which I said no, I don't actually. Etc,

And now you're saying 'but I didn't say that.' Sad really. 🙄

I think Drogen may beg to differ there. 🙂

So would Wood I'm sure. And more besides. 😉

 

[Silverspike]

Are you not familiar with the word 'Guess' then?

 

[jom]

No fighting guys - it isn't epic, and I demand epic. Swords at the very least.

Spike won because he was the better fighter. Angel hadn't fought him in a century (except one short tussle which Spike had every reason not to win). So Angel had every reason to concentrate on the argument and assume that the fight would come to him. Yes, he was depressed and didn't want it and whatever else people say - but that is the Problem and not the excuse. Spike won because he was by far and away the better fighter at this time and in this place.

Who would call Faith lowly?

Oh bespangeled, you know that as a fellow Weslah it is hard for me to disagree with you. You make a very valid and direct point and you dont want much excuses, and your tangible tale of the tape is hard to rebuke. But if i may say something, Spike needed this fight more than angel, he wanted this fight more than angel. Spike needs to fight for every little crumb he can get. As great as Spike is in season 5, and he is, there's an inferiority complex that surrounds him and he feels it. Angel is the CEO of the most powerful organization in town, And as Spike complained, Angel has it too good.

There are a many instances during the season where Spike just looks so small and inferior compared to Angel, like when he went after that Crazy Slayer that tortured him and cut off his arms and Angel saved him and ended up consoling him, or the whole deal of Lindsey tricking him, and making him into the new Angel, or even little things like Spike saying he doesnt have anywhere else to go when angel wanted him out. You see little by little how Spike needs Angel than the other way around. Eventually Spike falls in with the rest of crew and becomes submissive to Angel's leadership, Angel is the boss and Spike is one of his henchmen. 
bespangeled: All quite true - so we don't disagree. One point - Spike gave his trust and respect when he had other options. That makes him no more lowly than Wesley, Gunn and Fred.

You are right, spike gave his trust and respect when he didnt had to. Spike is not lowly, he is one of the best thing that happened on season 5, without him the season would had suffered. Sorry if i sounded harsh, or sounded like i dont love Spike, i love Spike. The main point that was trying to make is that Angel is in his own show, and commands the most powerful organization in town, why not give spike some love too. Angel cant have everything. And you are right, as angel says it "Spike was stronger in that fight".

You know what, forget my earlier post.

 

[thetopher]

Are you not familiar with the word 'Guess' then?

'Troll.'
I'm very familiar with that word, thanks to you.

 

[Silverspike]

Ditto. 😀

But may I suggest that If you wish to keep on bitching at me that you take it to PM. Okay?

 

[The Bronze]

Spike was better on the day and therefore he won the fight. If they come to blows again another day then it could just as easily go the other way. They're of a similar strength and fighting ability that all sorts of variables would come into play.

It's worth noting that Angel being the star of his own show doesn't actually make him the superior vampire. Obviously the story is told from Angel's perspective but that doesn't equal superiority. Spike comes into Angels personal fight under odd circumstances and sticks around to put his life on the line and do what he can to help. At the end of the series they're both still standing and ready to put themselves on the line again for a final showdown. Very odd to be talking about superiority here I feel.