Destiny Fight

[white avenger]

Something just occurred to me while reading through this thread. How many times have we actually seen Spike and Angel fight? I'm not including arguing(they always do that), or even exchanging a few punches the way that they did in "Smile Time" and "The Girl In Question," but, beyond things of that nature, I can remember the two of them fighting over the Gem of Amara (?) on Angel's show, and that's about all. I know that Angel referred to that fight as "for the first time" Spike beat him, implying that there were at least several others in the past, but we never saw any of them, and we never saw them fight in any of the flashbacks. In fact, for the most part, evil Spike and Angelus actually seemed to be on a more friendly basis than ensouled Spike and Angel ever have been.

Maybe I'm missing a few other fights, but the point is, we haven't ever actually seen them fight, without interruption, all the way to the conclusion before, obviously, because if we had, one or the other of them would have been dust, just as Angel could have been in "Destiny." Look carefully at that fight, and you will see two very closely matched fighters, taking advantage of everything that they could lay their hands on to give themselves an advantage, fron pieces of re-bar used as a spear and a quarterstaff, to a piece of broken plank used as a stake. Either vampire could have found and exploited something to their own advantage, overbalancing the scales in their advantage, to win. Spike just happened to be the one who got the final advantage that won him the match. It could just as easily been Angel.

When it comes to that kind of no holds barred, all out, fight, just about the only consistent thing is that there are no consistencies at all. Anything goes, and the winner is the one who always gets up one more time than he goes down. It could just as easily be said that Spike exploited more advantages than Angel, at more opportune times, and that was why he won and Angel lost. Consider that as saying "Spike just got lucky this time," or "Angel got complacent and overconfident," or any of a dozen other things, the only thing that was undeniable in the end was that Spike was the one who got to drink the Mountain Dew.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It could just as easily be said that Spike exploited more advantages than Angel.

Also un/souled Spike is the same type of fighter. He didnt change. Angelus always seemed to be more brutal of a fighter. The only time Angel came close to that level of intensity was the whole Darla/Dru fiasco. Angel wasn't a fighter; he was a champion. Spike was a fighter.

 

[thetopher]

'In The Dark' and 'Fool For Love' are the only times we see them fight I think.

'In The Dark' Spike had surprise and a weapon (a 2 by4 I think) and still lost to Angel by the virtue of Angel getting more hits in. To be honest I remember thinking that Spike wasn't trying very hard to beat Angel because it wasn't part of his over all plan.

In 'Fool For Love' Angelus was going to stake Spike rather easily because Spike was what? Barely a year old and Angelus was over 100? No surprise there.

We can't really garner anything from those confrontations, all we can do is look at the people Angel and Spike fought respectively and try and make judgements from that.
You could argue that it was Angel, not Spike that knocked Caleb on his ass with one hit so therefore he's the stronger vampire. Or point to the fact that Spike came closer to killing Buffy than Angelus ever did so he was the better fighter, etc.

The only thing I can say (and this is only from memory) is that when Angel and Spike are fighting Illyria together (and being easily outclassed) they seem to show the same level of skill/weapons proficiency/ability to get knocked about. If that means anything I'm not sure.

 

[white avenger]

Also un/souled Spike is the same type of fighter. He didnt change. Angelus always seemed to be more brutal of a fighter. The only time Angel came close to that level of intensity was the whole Darla/Dru fiasco. Angel wasn't a fighter; he was a champion. Spike was a fighter.

It's really hard to judge Angelus' fighting skill, though, because he seemed to avoid fighting whenever possible, choosing instead to put his energies into plotting, intimidation, and torture, both mental and physical. That in no way belittles his skill as a fighter, it simply means that we have very few examples, if any, of what that skill level might have been. As for Angel, obviously, it wasn't until he arrived in Sunnydale and actually began to take part in Buffy's fight that we ever got any indication of his fighting ability. We never saw any flashbacks of Angel fighting anything nonhuman with the possible exception of inside the German submarine. Interestingly, the two times that he lost his soul after that point, he seemed to be much more prone to fight than he was during his bad old days with Darla.

Spike, in contrast, almost bordered on the Viking Berserker type of fighter (something that he shares with Faith) He revels in the conflict. If vampires' bodies are still capable of producing it, Spike would be the classic adrenalin junkie

You could argue that it was Angel, not Spike that knocked Caleb on his ass with one hit so therefore he's the stronger vampire.

I'm not sure that that is a real indicator of anything, since it was a "sucker punch." delivered when Caleb wasn't prepared for it, or even aware that Angel was in the area. In a heads up, toe to toe fight, I seriously doubt that he would have done any better than Spike, Faith, or Buffy, herself, when they first fought.

 

[thetopher]

I'm not sure that that is a real indicator of anything, since it was a "sucker punch." delivered when Caleb wasn't prepared for it, or even aware that Angel was in the area. In a heads up, toe to toe fight, I seriously doubt that he would have done any better than Spike, Faith, or Buffy, herself, when they first fought.

Exactly the point I was making- you can take example from anywhere to prove most theories.
I mean, is Faith a tougher fighter than Buffy just because she lasted longer than her against Caleb? Not really, because Caleb sucker punched Buffy when she wasn't prepared for that sort of power.
I think you have to have more than one example to prove a pattern of level of skill and we don't have that with Angel and Spike.