Destiny

[Vampmogs2]

i kind of do think he feels bad for what he did as a evil vamp, but its just spike nature to play the fool and joke about people, its how he connects with people.

I agree that he feels bad for the things he did, but it took Dana to make him face up to it.

I mean look at Angel, even if he did get over it, the way he acts now is the way he would still act, being all mopey and broody

Angel has no choice. If he gets too happy he looses his soul, it's not Angel's fault that he was cursed. I don't think we can expect Angel to be happy, he was very happy in Ats s3 and poked and prodded with a stick by Fred making sure he wasn't "perfectly happy." He isn't allowed to be happy, it's not his fault.

When he didn't have the curse in 'I Will Remember You' he was far from mopey and broody, he was giggling and had a smile on his face 24/7.

And he's had a tough life. Not only does he have to life with the memories of all the things Angelus did, he was turned on by the first human he ever tried to help, he had to give up his son to give a normal life, he had an evil law firm constantly trying to drive him insane and evil, he lost Doyle and later Cordelia, he had to leave Buffy because he was a vampire. There's plenty of things he has to be mopey about.

Besides he's not always mopey and broody, there's plenty of episodes in Ats when he's enthusiastic and fun. He also has a very dry sense of humour and wit about him, Spike's more in-your-face funny where Angel's a bit more subtle. Just different kind of humours.

Might add though that whilst some people may find Spike more fun to watch, Angel's mopey and broody attitude won him far more friends within the show than Spike's behaviour. Like you said, Spike hides behind his true feelings by putting on a bad ass persona and that doesn't often win him friends, when he shows his softer side and acts more like Angel (as for example with Fred) he wins friends far more easily.

 

[T.I.P]

I still like Angel though. and i realize when he was human and angelus he was NOT broody, so yeah, i cant blame him. But maybe another reason angel feels worse than spike is because *maybe* he's a better person. a bit more moral and humane. i wasnt tryin to down play how angel acts

 

[Lou]

I wanted him to show some compassion for the people he did kill, whilst fighting evil. I think there's a healthy balance. In fact I wanted him just to show some compassion in general. Yeah he didn't kill Dana but when he mocks her impairment he shows a lack of compassion for humanity in general. Though I'm glad he learnt his lesson at the end of the episode.

And if he can't be blamed for killing people, then he can't accept credit for getting his soul back either. You just can't have it both ways, he's either responsible for his actions, or he isn't.

And I agree with white avenger's analysis of the situation. Buffy was the key to helping both of these men. Angel didn't have Buffy for a very long time, Spike had her help sooner. Looking at both of them pre-Buffy, there's nothing to indicate Spike was dealing with it any better than Angel was, he was driven insane with guilt, and sitting on his arse, just like Angel.

Sorry, I don't get it. But, that may be my personal preference. It seems to me that the sheer act of fighting AGAINST evil is far more productive than showing guilt. If someone came over and spray painted my car, I would MUCH rather them ACT to fix my car and perhaps roam the streets trying to stop other people's cars from being spray painted than sit and tell me how sorry they are.

And there IS a big difference between not being exactly "at fault" for killings he did as a vampire and then fighting to get his soul back. Just the same as if you get someone hooked on drugs by shooting them up in their sleep, you can't be stunned if they then do anything and everything to get drugs. Steal, prostitute themselves, whatever. But, if they decide, "Nope, I no longer want to do this, I'm going to fight my way out of this drug fog instead" EVEN if it's to impress a girl, that doesn't make the fight out of it any less hard.
It's against his "nature" as a vampire. Killing is natural for a vampire, fighting to get his soul back, UNNATURAL.

Personally, I think you're putting a LOT of emphasis on the impact Dana had on Spike. Yes, he did actively SAY something about it, but he was slapped in the face with it. But, it's not like it drastically changed him or the manner in which he lived his life. He was just as snarky and selfish as ever afterward.

 

[Vampmogs2]

Sorry, I don't get it. But, that may be my personal preference. It seems to me that the sheer act of fighting AGAINST evil is far more productive than showing guilt. If someone came over and spray painted my car, I would MUCH rather them ACT to fix my car and perhaps roam the streets trying to stop other people's cars from being spray painted than sit and tell me how sorry they are.

Like I said, I think there is a happy medium. Angel expresses guilt and fights against evil at the same time, why can't Spike do both? Spike tells Wood he doesn't "give a piss" about killing Nikki, but Angel tells Holtz he's sorry, even when Holtz stole his son, and he admits it doesn't change anything. IMO, Angel was the bigger man here. What would you rather, someone saying "I'm sorry and I'll fix your car" or "I don't give a piss about your car or the trouble it caused you, but I'll fix it anyway." Of course most people would rather the first option, and someone who says the first option should get a lot more respect.

And there IS a big difference between not being exactly "at fault" for killings he did as a vampire and then fighting to get his soul back. Just the same as if you get someone hooked on drugs by shooting them up in their sleep, you can't be stunned if they then do anything and everything to get drugs. Steal, prostitute themselves, whatever. But, if they decide, "Nope, I no longer want to do this, I'm going to fight my way out of this drug fog instead" EVEN if it's to impress a girl, that doesn't make the fight out of it any less hard.

But I don't think that's what Spike is claiming here. He's take the position a lot of the fans take concerning Angel and Angelus. Spike is denouncing any responsibility for what he did as a soulless vampire as if he had no control over it. If he wants to take that approach he has to take that with getting his soul as well, if he wants to act as if he's two different people then fine, but he can't take responsibility for getting his soul if he isn't going to face up to the fact he is responsible for all the lives he took as well.

And it isn't even just concerning the soul. He tries to blame Angel for making him a monster, instead of being a man and taking responsibility for his own actions. He tells Angel he made him a monster, but Angel's right, he "just opened up the door, and let the real Spike out." Spike has to take some responsibility for a change, he can't blame Angel or the lack of a soul for all the things he isn't proud of but brag about things he is.

Personally, I think you're putting a LOT of emphasis on the impact Dana had on Spike. Yes, he did actively SAY something about it, but he was slapped in the face with it. But, it's not like it drastically changed him or the manner in which he lived his life. He was just as snarky and selfish as ever afterward.

You're right, he was. But at least it made him stop and think for a moment about the lives they did ruin, he never did.

It wasn't until "˜Shells' that I actually began to like Spike's character again. I had respect for what he did in "˜Chosen' but after being resurrected he really ruined that for me. He constantly brought up saving the world and how he deserved a reward for this, when Angel and especially Buffy, even Xander, have saved the world before and never did this. He made judgements on Angel from the second he arrived at Wolfram and Hart without bothering to find out why they actually took over, he showed no compassion for people like Dana and tried to blame Angel for everything bad he did, and he tried to paint getting his soul back as part of his "destiny" and because he knew it was the right thing to do, when all season seven of Btvs he'd claimed it was for Buffy and Buffy alone, he'd stated this a number of times. He just really showed an ugly side of his personality to me, and I lost a lot of respect for him. It wasn't until "˜Shells' and he said he wanted to start fighting because it's what Fred wanted and it's what *he* wanted, that I started to like him again.

I've always respected Angel's character because he'll never shy away from accepting responsibility for his actions. And people may think he's broody because of this, and he can be really hard on himself, but I really respect someone or a character who'll face up to the consequences and not blame others or make excuses. He'll stand up and try and repent for the things he's done, he isn't afraid to say sorry to someone and he'll help people.

 

[T.I.P]

Thing is, Wood didnt want or need to hear an apology from spike. that would have made wood madder. and spike new that. Spike does feel bad about killing her.
Just as he does feel bad for all his murders. Some would say Angel expresses a bit too much guilt.

You say spike has to accept responsibility for both killings and the soul , well how do you KNOW he dosnt. Just because he dosnt brood and go on about it all the time.
And plus the chip changed everything.
He wouldnt have fallen(properly) in love with buffy or got his soul back had he not been chipped. It (kind of) forced him to change.

And when he was saying he got his soul back for buffy, he was telling the truth. that Was the right thing to do. But people dont choose their destiny.
Spike saw NO reason why it might not be him. none of them *deserved* it.
They both became good people. whoever gets it gets it.:: vampire

 

[Kana]

Like I said, I think there is a happy medium. Angel expresses guilt and fights against evil at the same time, why can't Spike do both? Spike tells Wood he doesn't "give a piss" about killing Nikki, but Angel tells Holtz he's sorry, even when Holtz stole his son, and he admits it doesn't change anything. IMO, Angel was the bigger man here. What would you rather, someone saying "I'm sorry and I'll fix your car" or "I don't give a piss about your car or the trouble it caused you, but I'll fix it anyway." Of course most people would rather the first option, and someone who says the first option should get a lot more respect.

To be honest this is where the analogy breaks down for me. Sentiment can be tied to a car, no doubt but in more cases than none you can replace it. You can't make up for the loss of a human life, but I agree about understanding or at least trying. Spike interestingly changed his mind in LMPTM. He said he doesn't give a piss but he at least admitted that with a soul he can see that her life was worth more than a game and hence he gives Wood a 'pass'.

But I don't think that's what Spike is claiming here. He's take the position a lot of the fans take concerning Angel and Angelus. Spike is denouncing any responsibility for what he did as a soulless vampire as if he had no control over it.

I'm not sure if Spike has actively said that. He's been a little more consistent in the whole "I did these things" scenario.

If he wants to take that approach he has to take that with getting his soul as well, if he wants to act as if he's two different people then fine, but he can't take responsibility for getting his soul if he isn't going to face up to the fact he is responsible for all the lives he took as well
And it isn't even just concerning the soul. He tries to blame Angel for making him a monster, instead of being a man and taking responsibility for his own actions. He tells Angel he made him a monster, but Angel's right, he "just opened up the door, and let the real Spike out." Spike has to take some responsibility for a change, he can't blame Angel or the lack of a soul for all the things he isn't proud of but brag about things he is.

Well absolutely. To me it's really his attitude in Destiny that I didn't agree with. Either you're responsible for your soulless actions or you're not. Don't lay it on Angel. If it was the lack of soul then you can't blame Angel either.

You're right, he was. But at least it made him stop and think for a moment about the lives they did ruin, he never did.

Like we said Spike was rarely one for self reflection. He always much more joie de vivre, carpe diem which I think can be healthy. My only issue was his cruel (and unnecessary) words to Wood. Fine don't apologize but don't be an arse and say you don't care about her death and claim that she didn't love her son. Nikki like Buffy was caught between a rock and a hard place. Not fair to judge her as a Slayer or a mother.

It wasn't until "˜Shells' that I actually began to like Spike's character again.

I liked Shells more for Spike getting some nuts. I was getting tired of the whole "It's for the girl" or "I'm better than Angel" reason for motivation. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't have changed what happened because it was all part of Spike's journey, I'm just glad he arrived to the conclusions he did in Shells.

I had respect for what he did in "˜Chosen' but after being resurrected he really ruined that for me. He constantly brought up saving the world and how he deserved a reward for this, when Angel and especially Buffy, even Xander, have saved the world before and never did this.

I don't blame Spike too much. Like Angel, he was in a place he didn't want to be and was acting out. As much as Spike tried to big himself up, Angel tried to downplay his heroism. Both of them needed to grow up.

He made judgements on Angel from the second he arrived at Wolfram and Hart without bothering to find out why they actually took over, he showed no compassion for people like Dana and tried to blame Angel for everything bad he did, and he tried to paint getting his soul back as part of his "destiny" and because he knew it was the right thing to do, when all season seven of Btvs he'd claimed it was for Buffy and Buffy alone, he'd stated this a number of times. He just really showed an ugly side of his personality to me, and I lost a lot of respect for him. It wasn't until "˜Shells' and he said he wanted to start fighting because it's what Fred wanted and it's what *he* wanted, that I started to like him again.

Yeah, like I said, Spike was nowhere near perfect in that Season. Most of it was because Spike and Angel bring out the worst in each other. Both of them also showed a hint of concern. Angel seemed concerned for releasing Spike forever as spirit and there was a touch of concern in Spike's voice when he talked about Angel taking a "devil's bargain".

I've always respected Angel's character because he'll never shy away from accepting responsibility for his actions. And people may think he's broody because of this, and he can be really hard on himself, but I really respect someone or a character who'll face up to the consequences and not blame others or make excuses. He'll stand up and try and repent for the things he's done, he isn't afraid to say sorry to someone and he'll help people.

Aside from my Angel-is-crazy-but-I-love-him-anyway thing, I'm pretty meh when it comes to vampire responsibility. I actually judge vampires differently and I agree with Angel that what they deserve is open to debate (although I really judge them that harshly at all) but the point is, brood, don't brood, whatever. As long as your fighting the good fight, which, Spike and Angel are. I just prefer Angel's character, I rarely argued his moral superiority.

 

[Schillaci]

This topic is word heavy, I really want to get involved, because I noticed a few errors in the first couple of posts(and I love this topic). I don't want to spend my time going through it just to find out that someone else has corrected it.

Perhaps later on.